Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia

[Mastika]

Volk,

There is a difference between the 'state' and the 'government'. A Macedonian 'state' was not first created in 1944 or 1991 - it has historically existed in various forms prior to that. The name Macedonia was not first 'officially' used as the name of our state in 1944 or 1991 - it has been used as the name of our state (as it existed historically) and as the name of our homeland continuously.

I would disagree with you here. The first truly "Macedonian" state, in my opinion, was the Krusevo Republic. What forms of statehood pre-1944 are you suggesting are Macedonian? Tsar Samuil's Empire, Krale Marko's kingdom etc.?

The Macedonian nation however is much older then 1903.

In any case, Zoran Vraniskovski needs to be ostracised completely (not just physically) from Macedonia and his followers need to say to him, it is NOT OK for us to be called Slav Macedonians.

[Vangelovski]

Which definition of state are we discussing here? The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity, a specific mode of government, or a body politic, especially one constituting a nation?

The current Macedonian state has only existed continuously since August 2, 1944 established under the name Democratic Macedonia. The period from the end of the Krushevo Republic to 1944 there was no sovereign Macedonian state in existence as it was subjugated and partitioned. If you are talking about a Macedonian entity or identity, then that is different than state and was not mentioned.

In regards to us choosing the name in 91, On April 16, 1991 the parliament adopted the constitutional amendment for removing the "Socialist" adjective from the official name of the country, and on June 7 the same year, the new name Republic of Macedonia was officially established. They are not discussing the name Macedonia, they are discussing the official name of the state. Please clarify what your issue is with this statement...

Buktop, don't you get tired of your own garbage?

A state is a defined territory, governed by specific laws, which are implemented by a number of institutions (including the judiciary, government, civil service) and all of which are (usually) constituted by the body of citizens.

A government is simply one institution belonging to the state and (usually) serving the body of citizens.

My issue with UMD's line of arguement is that it supports the Greek claim that 'Tito invented Macedonia in 1944' or 'that Macedonia invented itself in 1991'. Using that line of arguement - that Macedonia did not call itself as such in any official capacity before 1944 - is incorrect and provides legitimacy to Greek claims.

A Macedonian state existed prior to the Birth of Christ and this state 'officially' used the name Macedonia to denote itself.

[osiris]

A Macedonian state existed prior to the Birth of Christ and this state 'officially' used the name Macedonia to denote itself.

so obvious to me vangelovski and it existed for longer than the current french and american republics.

[Vangelovski]

so obvious to me vangelovski and it existed for longer than the current french and american republics.

I was just waiting to see if the Metovisti have erased that period of Macedonian history. It appears they have seeing as none of them want to talk about anything earlier than 1903.

[Pelister]

What do you expect from a foreign paid spy?

Pelister, the modern Macedonian state (government) was created in 1944. Are you ignorant to this? Which Macedonians governed Macedonia prior to this? Or did we rule ourselves the past 500 years?

You and UMD will probably try to rewrite history.

We were not "created" in 1944, and we most certainly havn't been a country since 1944.

The suggestion that the Macedonian nationality has only been around for 60 odd years is false.

[Pelister]

Which definition of state are we discussing here? The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity, a specific mode of government, or a body politic, especially one constituting a nation?

The current Macedonian state has only existed continuously since August 2, 1944 established under the name Democratic Macedonia. The period from the end of the Krushevo Republic to 1944 there was no sovereign Macedonian state in existence as it was subjugated and partitioned. If you are talking about a Macedonian entity or identity, then that is different than state and was not mentioned.

In regards to us choosing the name in 91, On April 16, 1991 the parliament adopted the constitutional amendment for removing the "Socialist" adjective from the official name of the country, and on June 7 the same year, the new name Republic of Macedonia was officially established. They are not discussing the name Macedonia, they are discussing the official name of the state. Please clarify what your issue is with this statement...

As long as there are people like you at UMD I will continue to slam them whenever I can.

[Mikail]

Macedonia has been known and mapped as such for more than a millennium. Macedonia has been Macedonia throughout time. The Greeks like to hold us by a technicality and Meto toes that line. I can't believe fellow Macedonians are putting that argument forward. Anyone else who follows this needs a good look in the mirror

[Buktop]

Buktop, don't you get tired of your own garbage?

A state is a defined territory, governed by specific laws, which are implemented by a number of institutions (including the judiciary, government, civil service) and all of which are (usually) constituted by the body of citizens.

Can you tell me when these laws, institutions and Macedonian citizenship were all established?

A government is simply one institution belonging to the state and (usually) serving the body of citizens.

a sovereign Macedonian state did not exist after Krushevo Republic fell, and only came into existence in 1944 by unilateral declaration by ASNOM.

My issue with UMD's line of arguement is that it supports the Greek claim that 'Tito invented Macedonia in 1944' or 'that Macedonia invented itself in 1991'. Using that line of arguement - that Macedonia did not call itself as such in any official capacity before 1944 - is incorrect and provides legitimacy to Greek claims.

Your issue is completely misdirected. The claim that the current Macedonian State came into existence in 1944 is referring to, as you stated before, institutions, establishment of citizenship and law. Before this establishment there was no official Macedonian state, there was a Macedonian territory, people, identity, but there was not a STATE. The Macedonian people renamed their country and changed their form of government in 90-91. This is fact, this is what is being discussed, the official name of the country was changed as well as the official form of government, nothing to do with the historical use of Macedonia, but only with the existence of the State, which bares no weight on historical, political, or identity arguments. A state is not necessary to validate the existence of an identity or nation. For example the Jewish state did not exist until May 4, 1948, that does not mean that Jews were created out of thin air.

A Macedonian state existed prior to the Birth of Christ and this state 'officially' used the name Macedonia to denote itself.

Did this state survive, intact, un-perturbed and continuous throughout the ages? Or were there various incongruous appearances of a state, while otherwise subject to foreign mandates and subjugation?

[Buktop]

As long as there are people like you at UMD I will continue to slam them whenever I can.

Keep it up, I enjoy watching you make a fool of yourself.

[Buktop]

Macedonia has been known and mapped as such for more than a millennium. Macedonia has been Macedonia throughout time. The Greeks like to hold us by a technicality and Meto toes that line. I can't believe fellow Macedonians are putting that argument forward. Anyone else who follows this needs a good look in the mirror

We are talking about the STATE of Macedonia, not the existence of the identity, territory, or people. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Mikail]

It's not hard to understand yet it appears UMD and its supporters misunderstand.

[indigen]

We are talking about the STATE of Macedonia, not the existence of the identity, territory, or people. Why is this so hard to understand?

Peter Green: "Macedonia was the first large territorial state with an effective centralized political, military and administrative structure to come into being on the continent of Europe". [p.1]

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/An...nia/green.html

[julie]

Are the Greeks financing UMD? Since when has Macedonia existed since 1944? This is the biggest load of garbage and whoever called Meto Gotse Delchev should be ashamed of themselves. Gotse fought for the liberation of Macedonia , a unified Macedonia, one nation. He would be turning in his grave, what a travesty. And what a brainwashed people.
Macedonia has existed before Christ. I suppose Volk you dont agree then that Alexander the Great is Macedonian then? Let me tell you brat, he was born before 1944.
My grandparents would be disgusted if they were to be alive today to see and hear this rubbish from Grko mani and Serbo mani

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

It doesn't matter whether the Ancient Macedonian state existed continuously - that fact that it did exist makes UMD's statement incorrect - except for the Metovisti who don't like to discuss Macedonian history before ASNOM (1903 the earliest). Just because it ceased to exist, why does that now exclude it as an example of when the name "Macedonia" was used "officially" by a Macedonian state?

Noone is saying that the existence of a state is necessary for the existence of a nation - you brought that up yourself. UMD's statement was that Macedonia did not use the name Macedonia "officially" until 1944 - completely ignoring the Ancient Macedonian state.

Using the argument that the Macedonian state started using the name "Macedonia" only in 1944 provides legitimacy to Greece's historical claims that the people of FYROM usurped the name "Macedonia" in the 1940's as a Titoist creation and have no historical claim to it.

[Jankovska]

Are the Greeks financing UMD? Since when has Macedonia existed since 1944? This is the biggest load of garbage and whoever called Meto Gotse Delchev should be ashamed of themselves. Gotse fought for the liberation of Macedonia , a unified Macedonia, one nation. He would be turning in his grave, what a travesty. And what a brainwashed people.
Macedonia has existed before Christ. I suppose Volk you dont agree then that Alexander the Great is Macedonian then? Let me tell you brat, he was born before 1944.
My grandparents would be disgusted if they were to be alive today to see and hear this rubbish from Grko mani and Serbo mani

Goce, Jane Sandanski, Jane's father and all the others fighting for liberation of MAcedonia are turning in their graves right now on the words of some of the above. It is shameful to have people like this call themselves MAcedonians. A state can be porobena, under the Turks the Macedonians still had some of their laws, just because they were made tro accept the Turks doesn't make them Turks. You can not move the people and teritory or place them in one place in the year 1944. I have said it a zillion times before and I will say it before- TITO DID NOT make Macedonia, the MAcedonians fought and died for that country, Tito fucked up MAcedonia, remember Srekmski front instead of Solunski? Everyone who thinks differently can NEVER be a friend of MAcedonia, I don't care who you are.Was Macedonia not a state in the time of Philip, Aleksandar, Car Samuil, when it was porobena? Was it not? What was it than?Can someone answer.