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Old 07-10-2011, 08:25 AM   #1
Epirot
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Default Ethnic Albanians in Greece

I've the honor to present a well-documented study where the Albanians of Greece are studied thoroughly. The summary has been written by experts of Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Turkey (published in Ankara, on 1999).

You may think that this material is biased since it's written by Turkish officials, however, the details given here are treated neutrally and are supported even by western sources who confirm the same.

Nice reading!























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Old 07-10-2011, 11:27 AM   #2
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Epirot thanks for supplying this stuff it's important to show what the greeks are upto & still doing it.It's bad enough being forced into assimmilation but not to recognize your human rights is nothing short of atrocius.Is there anywhere apart from greece that has to be the worst case scenario of what it's doing & denying people's human rights.
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Old 07-10-2011, 02:05 PM   #3
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Everything is long lost for the christian Albanians in Greece. Their leaders already willingly assimilated in to the modern Greek identity and the Greek authorities assimilated the rest of them. They are also getting indoctrinated by despising anything about Albania and Albanians for about a century. I am sure that if someone reminds deputy PM Pangalos that his grandparents didn't even know Greek and he was speaking Albanian only, probably he curses on him. Just like some formerly Turkish christians, e.g. Kara-zafer(is), these Albanians are the champions of hellenes now!!

But Cham Albanian issue is different. They have been banished from their ancestral lands without a reason and all of a sudden. I know that few 100 of them seek asylum in Turkey too, shortly after WW-2. I wonder if Albanian state does something about that issue? Is there any 3rd party country other than Turkey who speaks about this?


Btw, one of oldest settlement records of Ottoman empire is "Sancak-i Arnavut". It`s dated from 1420s. I read it b4 and it contains all the information about how many feudal landowners in there, how many villages, towns, population and the map of the Sanjak (province) of Albania. The map includes all the current Albania and Chameria, northwest of Greece. Found it on web;




I think rather than dealing with their ancestral lands in Greece, Albanians are looking for a wrong direction for expanding, the Macedonia. Because even in early 15th century Ottoman records, current northwestern Greece was the sanjak of Albania. While it`s obvious that these places was inhabited by Albanians for centuries `till the WW-2, they seems totally forgot it and eyed for western Macedonia instead.

As you know, current northern Greece was Macedonia, northwest was called as Albania, northeast was Thrace, central Greece was Morea. So, there was no Greece at all during whole Ottoman reign. And while Istanbul patriarchy had full authority over the Balkan christians, they never ever complained about non-existence of the name Greece in current Greece . It sounds strange isn't it?
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Old 07-10-2011, 03:06 PM   #4
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Their leaders already willingly assimilated in to the modern Greek identity and the Greek authorities assimilated the rest of them
Hi Onur...nice to hear from you again. In regard with your statement, I'd say that the state of things after the establishing of 'Greek' Kingdom was pretty complicated than it appears in first sight. The fact that a sizable number of them preserve their Albanian features even under the condition of a strict regime of a deliberately assimilation by the Greek authorities, indicate that they receive Hellenism only superficially. Greek politics never achieved to erase their Albanian identity. It's another thing that Greece did with a lot of success: they indoctrinated Arvanites to felt nothing for the Albanians. Since that time, Arvanites looked with a lot of disdain upon Albanians: they viewed us as 'Turko-Albanians'.

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I wonder if Albanian state does something about that issue? Is there any 3rd party country other than Turkey who speaks about this?
Unfortunately not. The Albanian state never dare to rise its voice in protecting Cham issue. After the collapse of Communist regime in Albania and constant weakening of the state, Greece could extend in a great proportion its services and by doing so, to put under its control some important political figures. Then, Greece ruin the independence of Albanian Orthodox Church. This enable her to greacize a lot of Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs. Whether we like it or not, Turkey and some Aegean Macedonian organizations advocated Cham issue more than Albanian state itself. But this has also its negative side: this gives to Greece sufficient room to damage the Cham issue because it treat as a problem fabricated by Turkey and Macedonia. I hope you get my point!

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Because even in early 15th century Ottoman records, current northwestern Greece was the sanjak of Albania.
You're right. The sandjak of Albania, according to Ottoman records, encompassed most of modern Albania as far as Ambracia with an evident Albanian majority. This is also accepted by Turkish historians.

It would be a mistake to minimize the Albanian problem only in Chameria. It's evidently larger than that. What about thousands of Christian Albanian natives scattered all over Greece (Attica, Eubea, Thrace, etc)? If this problem would be solved correctly, then it must include all Albanians. We should not fall on Greek intrigues to abandon thousands of Christian Albanians...
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Old 07-10-2011, 03:42 PM   #5
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
It's another thing that Greece did with a lot of success: they indoctrinated Arvanites to felt nothing for the Albanians. Since that time, Arvanites looked with a lot of disdain upon Albanians: they viewed us as 'Turko-Albanians'.
Because you were Turk Alvanos. Full Stop. There is no doubt that the Albanians were the henchmens of the Ottoman empire in the Balkans.
The ones that were were sell outs and as far as Im concerned they have every right to view you this way. Even Scanderbeg would spit on them.

Next time your in Greece, why dont you inform your Arvanite brothers of how you feel and the oppression they suffer. Hope your insured.
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Old 07-10-2011, 04:56 PM   #6
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sir george rights of secession,??you have no idea about rights when you look at greeks who forbade people to even speak macedonian & you tal;k on the same level as if we are affecting albanian human rights.You look at the albanian consciousness in greece completely wiped oit because of the mentality & extent the govt will go.Look at poor macedonia is virtually given everything away to them at the expense of sovereignity.
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:01 PM   #7
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Epirot i agree about indoctrination by the greeks.What if the albanians in greece start revolting & join up with the rest of the albanians then they will wonder,Once they wake up & realise that the whole thing is a sham & just propping up the last vestitude of greece.But then they must be zonked out on the ouso to think greek all the time.
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:10 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
It's another thing that Greece did with a lot of success: they indoctrinated Arvanites to felt nothing for the Albanians. Since that time, Arvanites looked with a lot of disdain upon Albanians: they viewed us as 'Turko-Albanians'.
Thanks Epirot, and you got a valuable document here too.

I know that mate. This is unfortunately a typical Balkan behaviour and a cliche. After Ottoman regime ended, they transformed the term Turk into a bad label to brand people they dislike or demonize some group in the eyes of a particular people. The Slovak guy in the forum said that the Serbs in northern Serbia looks like Germans and they dislike their southern kinsmen and calls them as "Turks"!! Then you know, Bosnian Serbs calls Bosnian muslims as Turks and so on. It`s ridicules!

Btw, Bulgarians did same for the christian Gagauz Turks in there. They branded them as Turks first, because of their Turkish mothertongue and then they became hesitant to speak Turkish laters, they kept their identity in Bulgaria as secret. My brother`s Bulgarian Turkish wife told me that Gagauzs remains hidden in Bulgaria. She told me that when she was walking in the streets of Sofia or sitting in a cafe, sometimes a Gagauz comes by them to ask something cuz she hears that they speak in Turkish. She said that they usually speak Turkish by whispering in low voice even when they are in privacy and returning to Bulgarian language in public. It creates some kind of psychological pressure upon them, it`s already that`s why they do that, demonizing their true identity, language etc., so they prefer to be assimilated among them by their own will after some time.


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After the collapse of Communist regime in Albania and constant weakening of the state, Greece could extend in a great proportion its services and by doing so, to put under its control some important political figures. Then, Greece ruin the independence of Albanian Orthodox Church. This enable her to greacize a lot of Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs.
I think i already told you that b4 but you are actually lucky that Italy was on your side in post WW-1 Paris peace conference. Greeks was doing immense propaganda at that time and Venizelos was aiming to get Albania up to Tirana after they seized Thrace, calling it as "northern Epirus, ancient hellenic territory". British supported that but Italy defied them. So, Albania was inch close to be destroyed in 1920 after being formed in 1913.

We all can guess what would happen shortly afterwards; hellenizing the christian Albanians and rape/kill/dump the rest of muslims to the Turkey!!!, Voila, 5000 year old pure Greek Epirus, just like Aegean Macedonia.


Quote:
You're right. The sandjak of Albania, according to Ottoman records, encompassed most of modern Albania as far as Ambracia with an evident Albanian majority. This is also accepted by Turkish historians.
This is actually not an issue of acceptance or denial by the historians. It`s fact, mate. In the documents, written in 1420, it was Albania and it remained so for the next ~500 years.


Quote:
It would be a mistake to minimize the Albanian problem only in Chameria. It's evidently larger than that. What about thousands of Christian Albanian natives scattered all over Greece (Attica, Eubea, Thrace, etc)? If this problem would be solved correctly, then it must include all Albanians. We should not fall on Greek intrigues to abandon thousands of Christian Albanians...
Yes, that`s true but i gave emphasis to the Chams cuz it`s more recent, happened only ~60 years ago. I am sure there are many first hand victims alive today, in Albania and in Turkey.

Btw, did you see one of these videos in youtube b4?;
YouTube - ‪tsamiko ellinikos xoros - Traditional Greek dance‬‏

Rape them, kill them and expel the rest of the Chams. Then pick up their cloths, music and dances, advertise it as "tsamiko ellinikos", traditional Greek dance from antiquity!!! Thats outrageous!!!

Last edited by Onur; 07-10-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:21 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Voltron View Post

Because you were Turk Alvanos. Full Stop. There is no doubt that the Albanians were the henchmens of the Ottoman empire in the Balkans.
The ones that were were sell outs and as far as Im concerned they have every right to view you this way. Even Scanderbeg would spit on them.


Give it a break, you smartass! The question is not that Arvanites pejoratively label Albanians as 'Turk Alvanos' because in a certain historical period they were "henchmens" of the Ottoman Empire. The reason why Arvanites label Albanians as 'Turks' is because they're in a great proportion Muslims. But they counfound the term 'Muslim' with the 'Turk'. Indeed, there is no other people in Balkans to have profited so much from Ottoman mercy than your folk. You know it better than me. Why you don't use a more realistic term like 'Turk Greek' or something like that. It suit well with your historical past.

I highly recommand to you to have a reading on the following paper:



1. For the sake of argument let admit for a second that Greeks clearly formed the majority of population in Kingdom. If they were a majority then they would be main champions of their independence. How come that the best and highest officers of the Greek army were either foreign Phil-Hellenes, Albanians from all corners of Ottoman empire, cadets from Germany, etc. Why is that minor Greek presence into main institutions of the state?
2. If Greeks again were the majority, then how come that Greece owes every achievement to the strangers? Why those ‘strangers’ were in every corner of ‘Greek’ life: universities were full of Phil-Hellen professors, highest ranks of the army were full of Germans, Albanians, etc, trade was predominated by Vlachs, Albanians, etc.
3. If Greeks were a majority in Kingdom, then why James H. Skene said that they ‘do not contribute much’?
4. Let suppose that Phanariotes exercised a prominent influence in fortunes of the new emerged state…then why these ‘champions’ of Free Greece were one of the most loyal subjects to the Sultan?

Quote:
Next time your in Greece, why dont you inform your Arvanite brothers of how you feel and the oppression they suffer. Hope your insured.
Why do you question their oppression, which is so evident? Is there any school, where they can learn their native language? But the reality is, whether you like or not, most of Arvanites preserve up to our days their ancestral language, even in circumstances of constant assimilation.

Quote:
The Albanians are found in the north of Eubea and in other islands ; in Attica, away from Athens and the Piraeus, nearly all the people are Albanians, many of whom are completely fused with the Greeks.

^The London quarterly review: Volume 84, William Lonsdale Watkinson, John Telford, William Theophilus Davison – 1895,
There is not much difference after 80 years:

Quote:
"It is not too widely known outside Greece that the majority of villages in the immediate vicinity of Athens are (or were) Albanian rather than Greek speaking. (…)In Attica and Biotia Albanian-Greeks today number perhaps 140000, and form the majority of the population of most of the villages concerned. They are, therefore, typically a rural rather than an urban people. These Albanians for a long

^ Language, ethnicity and intergroup relations, Howard Giles, Academic Press, 1977, p. 172
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:30 AM   #10
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Rape them, kill them and expel the rest of the Chams. Then pick up their cloths, music and dances, advertise it as "tsamiko ellinikos", traditional Greek dance from antiquity!!! Thats outrageous!!!
Yes I am aware of it. Aristidh Kola, a prominent Arvanite intellectual in his book "Arvanites and the origin of Greeks' notice that Neo-Byzantines (a term which he uses constantly to describe the wannabe Greeks) pick up this dance from Chameria. But they dance it so worst, as every Cham would laugh seeing Neo-Hellenes playing it.
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