Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[kompir]

Tell us more about whats happening in FYROM brother - im guessing the people have given up?

I know the media is pretty much controlled by Zaev, which means the general population (sheeps) and boomers will take his words as gospel - which means the reffrendum will most probably pass in spetember 30

I wasn't there for long enough to form a more thorough account of the status quo, but from what I saw, dissidents (ie those opposed to the name change) were being selectively rounded up. I say selective because if it was a wholesale effort, eyebrows would have been raised on several fronts and Zaev and co would appear no better than Gruevski Pty Ltd in the eyes of the sheeple.

The shiptari are grinning from ear to ear, I went to Struga for the day and fuck me dead if they don't appear like the cat that got the cream. But they aren't the worst offenders, the literati of Skopje, Bitola and Ohrid... koj pobrgo da izedat govno predavnicko. They are on TV espousing the benefits of the agreement and how good it will be for the country, they fill the pages of the print publications with their traitorous bile. But because their tone is quite moderate and tempered, they aren't met with any hostility or counter arguments.

Kafanite se polni, duri prepolni. For some reason, Macedonians from Australia have descended en masse into Ohrid and Bitola this year. I saw people in Ohrid from here that I hadn't seen in decades. In days gone by, you could tell when a stranec was shouting anyone and everyone from a mile away, this time though, the places were so full, you couldn't tell jack.

Someone within Zaev's crew offered my cousin (a former police officer based out of Ohrid) 3000 euro a month to be a part of a special counter terrorism unit. The funding for this outfit wasn't out of government revenue, he couldn't determine where the money was coming from. In any case, he turned them down, even though it meant walking away from ten times the pay he got whilst on the job.

The priest I mentioned in my post yesterday was adamant he saw someone that looked like the polling station people drop a ballot box that was already full of ballots. He reckons he went to the local police and they told him to stop drinking so much (bloke has liver problems that preclude him from drinking completely). But not long after my conversation with him I heard the same thing from other people.

[Bill77]

And so many Macedonians adore Trump and think that he's going to stand up for Macedonia's rights...

Considering the recent news how his own (Unnamed) staff were quietly working within the administration to undermine Trump and to push their secret agendas..... i wouldn't be surprised if Trump knows nothing about this un-signed letter coming from US embassy Macedonia.

To use a tweet from Jason Miko (Staunch supporter of Macedonia and producer of "A Name Is A Name")
"Fact: no US President writes such statements. They are generated by the StateDept w/influence from the various embassies & designed to further the goals of State's permanent bureaucracy".


But this explanation of what might have occurred is best one yet lol

[Pelagonija]

Convinient timing.. all these articles comming out normalising the status quo..

https://sitel.com.mk/dokument-na-vikiliks-za-stavovi-na-gligorov-po-sredba-so-amerikanskiot-ambasador-riker

[Carlin]

Serbian Metropolitan Bulovic: Macedonians are „неиспилени Северномакедонци“, and Macedonia an invented statelet

URL:

https://kanal5.com.mk/articles/347710/spc-makedoncite-se-neispileni-severnomakedonci-a-makedonija-izmislena-drzhavichka

Српската православна црква буквално му се закачи на врат на вселенскиот патријарх Вартоломеј, особено по последната одлука на Архиерејскиот собор на Вселенската патријаршија да може да дава афтокефалност на цркви без согласност на другите помесни цркви што пак ја прави сосема извесна можноста Македонската православна црква –Охридска архиепископија набрзо рамноправно да се вброи во православната екумена, без притоа да тропа на вратата на Српската или на било која друга сестринска црква.

Вселенскиот патријарх Вартоломеј вчера преку православниот сајт Ортодоксиа. Инфо, потсети дека Вселенската патријаршија е таа која ја носи одговорноста но е и единствена која ја има привилегијата, да ги поставува работите во православниот свет во црковен и во вообичаен поредок зашто во спротивно, ако не го прави тоа, локалните цркви ќе одат како овци без пастир, напиша Вартоломеј.

И ако, поединци се исчудуваа од каде потребата за повторно објаснување на соборската одлука од страна на најврвниот во православието, сега веќе не е тешко да се заклучи дека тоа барем дел ,се должи на писмото што до него го испратил поглаварот на Српската православна црква Иринеј а кое пред два дена го објави религиозниот грчки сајт Ромфеа.

Во писмото како што пренесува пак, македонскиот сајт Религија.мк кое инаку е пишувано на старогрчки јазик кој поглаварот на СПЦ не го знаел, ама го знаел Бачкиот митрополит Иринеј Буловиќ кој веројатно е и вистинскиот автор, со многу погрдни зборови, говор на омраза и недоличности, Македонците се наречени неиспилени северномакедонци а Македонија измислена државичка.

Македонците, македонскиот јазик и држава како и МПЦ, пишува во писмото потпишано од поглаварот на СПЦ, Иринеј, биле измислица на Комунистичка Југославија и на Тито.

Како МПЦ, според Иринеј, биле прогласени во тоа време јужните српски црковни епархии, кои на СПЦ и ги отстапила Цариградската патријаршија со Томосот од 1922 година.

Веројатно свесни за намерата на Вселенската патријаршија да и додели автокефалија на МПЦ, Иринеј го советува Вартоломеј дека не можел начинот за автокефалност на Украинската црква да е применлив за како што ја нарекува поглаварот на СПЦ,МПЦ, расколничката црква. Ако не дај боже, стане вакво нешто , тоа ќе биде обистинување на мудрата грчка изрека, според која ,,после едно допуштено зло, илјадници зла следуваат,, пишува меѓу другото Иринеј со замолница до Вселенскиот патријарх и Патријаршија, пред еднаш да пресечат три пати да измереле.

[Tomche Makedonche]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/10/its-not-about-what-is-fair-macedonians-prepare-to-vote-on-name-change

'It’s not about what is fair': Macedonians prepare to vote on name change

Many Macedonians grudgingly accept need for name change in order to join Nato and EU

North. It’s just a single five-letter word, but in Macedonia in recent weeks it has prompted many column inches of debate, hours of coffee-shop discussions and pages of online abuse.

A referendum at the end of the month will ask citizens whether they are willing to add the word to the country’s official name, making it the Republic of North Macedonia.

The change is the main part of an agreement between Macedonia and Greece signed by their respective prime ministers in June. Greece has long blocked Macedonian accession to Nato and the European Union, claiming its northern neighbour’s name is an unfair appropriation from the northern Greek region of Macedonia.

For many inside Macedonia, changing the name is a delicate issue. “It’s not just about one word. Think about Northern Ireland and Ireland. Words have meaning,” said Sasho Klekovski, a pollster and analyst who opposes the deal.

Nikola Dimitrov, Macedonia’s foreign minister, who spent months in negotiations with his Greek counterpart hammering out details of the deal, said it would offer a new path forward for the small nation of around 2 million people, which has struggled since it became independent after the collapse of Yugoslavia.

“We have lost a generation. I am 45, I was 18 when Macedonia became independent. In a way this is the second chance for our generation to make it,” he said in an interview at his office in central Skopje, Macedonia’s capital.

On 30 September the population will be asked: “Are you in favour of Nato and EU membership, and accepting the name agreement between the republic of Macedonia and Greece?”

Government critics say the wording is manipulative, but the defence minister, Radmila Šekerinska, said it was quite proper to phrase the question in two parts. “If there was a chance to get into the EU and Nato without the agreement with Greece, everyone would be thrilled,” she said. “To deny the connection between the EU and Nato and the agreement is to be irrational.”

Few Macedonians are positive about the name change, but many speak of it with the grudging acceptance that might be accorded an unpleasant but necessary medical procedure.

“We are an isolated, small and poor country, so let’s do it. It’s not fair, but it’s not about what is fair but about what is good for everyone. If there’s a chance for people to live better, let’s take it,” said Sanja Arsovska, 31, an actor at the Skopje drama theatre.

The deal has been stridently opposed by nationalists on both sides of the border – on Saturday Greeks protesters clashed with riot police – but polls suggest a slim majority are in favour of the deal, boosted by overwhelming support among Macedonia’s sizeable ethnic Albanian minority.

The longstanding dispute between Skopje and Athens has been complicated in recent years by a “antiquisation” project carried out by the nationalist government of the previous prime minister Nikola Gruevski, in which dozens of statues, fountains and grand buildings adorned with faux-marble columns were erected in Skopje.

The centrepiece is a fountain complex in the main square, topped with a statue of Alexander the Great on horseback. The monuments incensed Greece, who accused Skopje of appropriating Hellenic cultural and historical heritage.

Gruevski was ousted from office in 2016 after a wire-tapping scandal and is now on trial for an array of offences. The new government reached the deal with Greece but will need the support of parts of Gruevski’s VMRO-DPMNE party to see it through, as the referendum is only consultative.

Western diplomats are suggesting that a yes vote, even with a turnout below the 50% threshold required for it to stand, would be a mandate for change. The ruling coalition would need to persuade around 10 MPs from VMRO to vote with them in order to attain the two-thirds majority required for constitutional change.

VMRO officials are furious that Macedonia will have to change its name not only in international communications but internally as well, with passports, ministry names and all other references to Macedonia to be replaced by North Macedonia.

“They would have had a better agreement if they had let the Greeks write it themselves, because probably the Greeks would have been a bit embarrassed to give themselves absolutely everything,” said Aleksandar Nikoloski, the deputy head of VMRO, in an interview at the party headquarters, an imposing building filled with lurid artworks that reflect Gruevski’s grandiose visions.

VMRO are under intense international pressure not to scupper the agreement and have yet to announce whether or not they will call for a boycott of the referendum. Nikoloski has denied government claims that the party offered to support the deal in exchange for an amnesty for Gruevski and others.

As well as trying to get the opposition onside, Macedonian officials are keeping an eye on Moscow during the campaign. Russia has openly said it opposes Macedonia’s Nato accession and has been accused of working behind the scenes to try to scupper the deal. Greece recently expelled Russian diplomats, accusing them of offering bribes to opponents of the deal.

In Macedonia, the main pro-Russia force is Janko Bachev, a fringe politician whose United Macedonia party has sprung up in recent months. Bachev, speaking from the party offices where a Russian flag flies from the balcony, claimed the polls showing a majority of Macedonians in favour of Nato membership were “funded by the CIA” and insisted most Macedonians opposed the deal.

“All the main parties here support liberal values such as homosexuality, gay marriage, changing Macedonia’s name and erasing everything that is Macedonian,” he said, adding that the Kremlin instead supported “traditional values” that aligned with the views of most Macedonians. He denied receiving funding from Russia but said he wanted Macedonia to enter into a strategic alliance with the Kremlin.

Bachev, who is calling for a boycott of the vote, is not seen as a serious political force by most observers, but western diplomats are nevertheless following Moscow’s moves warily.

“For years, Russia never said anything about Macedonia; suddenly they are coming out with all kinds of statements,” said one. “I don’t think they are going to launch a Montenegro-style coup here, but could they put a few guys into a crowd and create a disturbance? I wouldn’t rule that out.”

Western countries are pushing strongly for the deal to be a success, with Germany’s Angela Merkel visiting Skopje this weekend.

If the deal is pushed through, Skopje and Athens have agreed to disagree on who or what constitutes a Macedonian: a sub-clause of the agreement says “the parties acknowledge that their respective understanding of the terms ‘Macedonia’ and ‘Macedonian’ refers to a different historical context and cultural heritage”.

When it comes to the Skopje monuments of Alexander the Great and other classical heroes, the government has agreed that within six months it will take “corrective action” by renaming monuments that “refer in any way to ancient Hellenic history and civilisation”.

Dimitrov said: “In the past we sacrificed our reality for mythology. Now we are sacrificing mythology for reality, and reality is what really matters.”

[Tomche Makedonche]

As usual, racial slurs have been edited and noted in Italic

https://greece.greekreporter.com/2018/09/07/greek-foreign-minister-defends-new-fyrom-name/

Greek Foreign Minister Defends New Macedonia Name

Greece is the winner in the negotiations with Macedonia over the name because the country that was widely referred to as “Macedonia” has agreed to be called “North Macedonia”, Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias said on Friday.

The minister defended the Prespa agreement between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia. The statement was made on Real FM radio in light of the mass protest rally scheduled for Saturday in Thessaloniki.

“Many of my colleagues pretend that they haven’t been calling it ‘Macedonia’ these past 15 years. Thanks to our government, it will be called ‘North Macedonia’ by the Americans as well. That is why we argue that we got the name back rather than giving it away, as some say,” Kotzias said.

The Greek minister said that the U.S. has always referred to the Balkan country as ‘Macedonia’ and never by its official name, Republic of Macedonia.

“Three-fourths of the world has unfortunately recognized the neighboring country as ‘Macedonia’ and fortunately with this deal it will become ‘North Macedonia,” Kotzias said.

Despite the disagreement of almost 70 percent of Greeks who don’t want the Balkan country use the name Macedonia at all — as polls show — Kotzias argued that Greece still has the upper hand.

“Even though the neighboring country will have to go through a referendum, a constitutional amendment and a name change, it will continue to rely on Greece, since without Greece’s ratification of the Prespa agreement, it will not become a member of NATO,” Kotzias said.

The Greek foreign minister also expressed the certainty that the Greek Parliament will ratify the agreement, despite objections by junior coalition partner, the nationalist Independent Greeks.

[Soldier of Macedon]

And so many Macedonians adore Trump and think that he's going to stand up for Macedonia's rights...

Just a script provided by the state department that he signed. That letter mentions NATO, and we know how unenthusiastic he was about Montenegro joining. But all of a sudden he is for Macedonia joining? Unlikely. Trump doesn't care deeply about the Balkans one way or the other and he wasn't personally pushing for Macedonia to enter into this deal. It's others in his administration that are encouraging this stance. Unfortunately, we're too small of an issue for him to take a firm interest and argue otherwise. On the other hand, Clinton would've been as actively for it as Merkel given her globalist agenda. As for Sanders, does he even know of Macedonia? Given his socialist agenda and his ideologically aligned counterparts in Macedonia that are currently in power, he probably would've supported this treacherous agreement also.

[Risto the Great]

Dimitrov said: “In the past we sacrificed our reality for mythology. Now we are sacrificing mythology for reality, and reality is what really matters.”

The reality is that Macedonians are giving up their name due to Greek mythology. Which makes Dimitrov look stupid.

[Carlin]

EDNOOKI from 2009 - UN Greek minority Report

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAxkirVz0AI

[vicsinad]

Just a script provided by the state department that he signed. That letter mentions NATO, and we know how unenthusiastic he was about Montenegro joining. But all of a sudden he is for Macedonia joining? Unlikely. Trump doesn't care deeply about the Balkans one way or the other and he wasn't personally pushing for Macedonia to enter into this deal. It's others in his administration that are encouraging this stance. Unfortunately, we're too small of an issue for him to take a firm interest and argue otherwise. On the other hand, Clinton would've been as actively for it as Merkel given her globalist agenda. As for Sanders, does he even know of Macedonia? Given his socialist agenda and his ideologically aligned counterparts in Macedonia that are currently in power, he probably would've supported this treacherous agreement also.

I think you're right that Trump doesn't care either way. But I don't think his comments on Montenegro reflect anything about his thoughts (if he has any) on Macedonia. He's firstly a negotiator and those comments about Montenegro were used simply to score some points and they don't reflect any sort of real principled or ideological approach to the Balkans.

However, there were still many Macedonians who thought Trump would benefit the Macedonians somehow and that is clearly not the case.

Clinton and Sanders probably would've also done nothing differently than Trump. But Sanders knows of Macedonia very well. He has been involved in Vermont politics since the 1980s as mayor and senator here, and has been a vocal supporter, along with Vermont's other legislators, for the partnership between the Macedonian army and the Vermont National Guard. Macedonia's generals and politicians often come to Vermont and meet with them.

[Big Bad Sven]

Unless its propaganda from these news articles, it seems like the reffrendum will pass and the name (and everything else) will be changed.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Unless its propaganda from these news articles, it seems like the reffrendum will pass and the name (and everything else) will be changed.

According to that Guardian article I posted, “Western diplomats” are saying that even if the referendum doesn’t reach the required 50% quota for it to be valid, a positive outcome for a “yes” vote gives the government a mandate to implement the agreement.

Unless there is some kind of uprising, this agreement will be implemented. The Plebiscite is irrelevant, the only opportunity it provides is for the people to make a statement, and with that, hopefully inspire them to make a stand.

[Gocka]

We are still talking about this?

This is settled, its happening, that has been apparent since about a month or so after the announcement.

Any one who still gives a shit should focus their energy on what next. Through LOMA we have tried toiled over and tried various approaches to try and organize some kind of resistance tot his, and the end result is the same it always is with Macedonians, a complete waste of time and energy.

You guys wouldn't believe the level of idiocy expressed in some of the private conversations we have had with big players involved in the "resistance".

I will tell you all right here right now, there is no conspiracy here, no shocking developments, just plain old naivety, lack of organization, lack of intellectual capacity, and stubbornness. We are a useless people, and that has never been more clear to me than in these past few months while trying to get something done.

This is what happens when too many people subscribe to this post Trump anti reality movement. You can't come up with real life solutions if you live in an alternate reality.

Macedonians firmly live in their own reality, where all norms and common sense have no bearing.

As always most Macedonians who are publicly involved are more concerned with maintaining their own little pocket of influence, and being able to claim credit for even losing initiatives, rather than actually accomplishing anything.

Macedonians are willing to listen to and do anything other than the truth and the right thing. Our lack of morality, and intellectual seriousness has finally led to our demise.

Our self inflicted demise should serve as a stark warning and example to all those alternative fact lovers in the USA and Europe who find comfort in creating their own realities. Macedonia was ahead of the curve in this regard, for decades peddling anything but the truth, until eventually we lost our ability to identify the truth even when we desired it. This is exactly what happens when you peddle bullshit for too long, you eventually start to believe your own bullshit.

I'm certain that today, and even 20,30,50 years from now, the same bullshit will be circulated. The stories of grand conspiracy that forced our little nation into submission. At least I will be able to say, I was there, I saw it unfold with my own eyes behind the scenes, and it was 100% our own fault.

Nuclear weapons will be a thing of the past. In the information age, information warfare will be the order of the day. Think, the holy wars + twitter. You could always get people to believe anything, but it took effort and a lot of force, now you just tweet shit twice a day for a while, and you eventually harness an army of brain dead zombies.

Never underestimate the destructive potential when you combine Arrogance with Ignorance.

[Big Bad Sven]

According to that Guardian article I posted, “Western diplomats” are saying that even if the referendum doesn’t reach the required 50% quota for it to be valid, a positive outcome for a “yes” vote gives the government a mandate to implement the agreement.

Unless there is some kind of uprising, this agreement will be implemented. The Plebiscite is irrelevant, the only opportunity it provides is for the people to make a statement, and with that, hopefully inspire them to make a stand.

Pretty much this.

Its an even bigger reason for all macedonians to come out and vote no to the name change.

I have gotten into arguments with geniuses who on social media who think boycotting the reffrendum will help us. As the article suggests even if less than 50% of the population doesnt vote they will still use the results of the reffrendum as ammo. It seems like the boycot 'strategy' is popular in macedonia.

It seems like history is repeating itself, the macedonian cause failing because of people not caring or people ignorant on what is happening.

I agree with Gocka, the name change will happen.

[Bill77]

Sadly...... there are many citizens who would give away their identity for a free pen and cigarette lighter.

So this initiative by Zaev and co is a stroke of genius.