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Old 03-14-2018, 07:00 PM   #1
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AMHRC Condemns Unconstitutional Language Law in Macedonia

Melbourne 15/3/2018 - Today, the SDSM-DUI coalition governing Macedonia, passed a law converting Albanian into an official language of state in the Republic of Macedonia. The law was passed in defiance of correct parliamentary procedure and the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia. The law represents an implementation of the foreign policy goals of neighbouring Albania. It will lead to excessively onerous administrative and financial difficulties for an already dysfunctional state.

From a human rights perspective, it is undoubtedly proper that ethnic Albanians have always possessed the right to use their mother tongue and to maintain it via state funded educational institutions, in the Republic of Macedonia. Indeed, the linguistic and other rights granted to the ethnic Albanian minority by the 2001 Ohrid Framework Agreement exceed standard international conventions and accords designed to protect minority groups. Put another way: ethnic Albanians in Macedonia enjoy legal protections for their linguistic and other rights, which surpass those possessed by almost any other minority group in Europe.

The imposition of a language spoken by around 20% of the population on the remaining 80%, has nothing to do with human rights and responsible citizenship; rather, it reeks of nationalism bent on destruction.
The Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) unequivocally condemns this undermining of the rule of law in Macedonia and will pursue avenues that lead to its repeal.

*****
Established in 1984, the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) is a non-governmental organisation that informs and advocates before international institutions, governments and broader communities about combating racism and promoting human rights. Our aspiration is to ensure that Macedonian communities and other excluded groups throughout the world, are recognised, respected and afforded equitable treatment. For more information please visit www.macedonianhr.org.au or email [email protected].
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:20 PM   #2
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:58 PM   #3
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:15 AM   #4
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Under Serbia, our people were forced to speak Serbian.....
Under Greece, our people were forced to speak Greek.....
Under Bulgaria, our people were forced to speak Bulgarian.....

Part of us a free...... now that part are forced to speak Albanian....
How the hell does this happen to us?
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:22 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by AMHRC View Post
AMHRC Condemns Unconstitutional Language Law in Macedonia

Melbourne 15/3/2018 - Today, the SDSM-DUI coalition governing Macedonia, passed a law converting Albanian into an official language of state in the Republic of Macedonia. The law was passed in defiance of correct parliamentary procedure and the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia. The law represents an implementation of the foreign policy goals of neighbouring Albania. It will lead to excessively onerous administrative and financial difficulties for an already dysfunctional state.

From a human rights perspective, it is undoubtedly proper that ethnic Albanians have always possessed the right to use their mother tongue and to maintain it via state funded educational institutions, in the Republic of Macedonia. Indeed, the linguistic and other rights granted to the ethnic Albanian minority by the 2001 Ohrid Framework Agreement exceed standard international conventions and accords designed to protect minority groups. Put another way: ethnic Albanians in Macedonia enjoy legal protections for their linguistic and other rights, which surpass those possessed by almost any other minority group in Europe.

The imposition of a language spoken by around 20% of the population on the remaining 80%, has nothing to do with human rights and responsible citizenship; rather, it reeks of nationalism bent on destruction.
The Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) unequivocally condemns this undermining of the rule of law in Macedonia and will pursue avenues that lead to its repeal.


This statement I believe has many errors.. (my opinion)

Quote:
Today, the SDSM-DUI coalition governing Macedonia, passed a law converting Albanian into an official language of state in the Republic of Macedonia.
Incorrect.. the Albanian language isn't the second official language of the country.. this would require constitutional change with a 2/3 majority.. Albanian has been enhanced yes.. but its not fully offical..

Quote:
The law was passed in defiance of correct parliamentary procedure and the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia.
This is an opinion.. many lawmakers (the majority) think otherwise.. this is something the constitutional court needs to decide..

Quote:
The law represents an implementation of the foreign policy goals of neighbouring Albania.
False... this has been part of every single Albanian party from mk policy since independence.. the demand has been the same for over 25 years.. long before Tirana supported the law..

Quote:
It will lead to excessively onerous administrative and financial difficulties for an already dysfunctional state.
Nobody knows the cost.. but as Albanians are also tax payers who fill over 1/4 of the state budget, in sure the money can be found as it is found in many countries where there is multi language use.. there are plenty of European example countries where multi language administrations exist and doesn't effect the functionality of the state.


Quote:
Indeed, the linguistic and other rights granted to the ethnic Albanian minority by the 2001 Ohrid Framework Agreement exceed standard international conventions and accords designed to protect minority groups. Put another way: ethnic Albanians in Macedonia enjoy legal protections for their linguistic and other rights, which surpass those possessed by almost any other minority group in Europe.
Firstly... I'm not saying that there aren't other countries in europe where minorities wish they had the language rights that exits in Macedonia.. but to say that there aren't other even Balkan cointries let alone European countries who's minority language laws are far greater than those of Macedonia for the Albanians (who make up one of the largest minority groups) of a country whos language isn't fully official is a bit far fetched..

Also lets not forget that the term "Albanian Language" has been wiped out for the term "over 20% population who speaks another language apart from Macedonian"

This in itself is rare and dergrading.. (but lets not get into this)

Quote:
The imposition of a language spoken by around 20% of the population on the remaining 80%
Why 20%? officially its 25% plus lets not forget that many self declaring ethnic Turks and Roma also speak or understand Albanian.. so the percentage at actually higher than 25%. Macedonians make up 65% not 80% .. most minorities don't use Macedonian as a mother tongue.

Also Albanian isn't being "imposed" on anyone.. nobody will be forced to learn or use Albanian if they don't want to.. this is a scare tactic.

Quote:
has nothing to do with human rights and responsible citizenship; rather, it reeks of nationalism bent on destruction.
For a human rights organization who had many years of great work and articles promoting the language rights of ethnic Macedonians outside RoM and who know very well the rights and needs of minority communities ...to be so much against the elevation of a minority language is disappointing.. I have and will always support ethnic Macedonians to express full language and identity rights (as do most Albanians) ..

I would really like to know the reaction from AMHRC if the same law was to be adopted for Macedonians in any country outside RoM where Macedonians live and see how much they would condemn the law..
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:22 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
This statement I believe has many errors.. (my opinion)


Incorrect.. the Albanian language isn't the second official language of the country.. this would require constitutional change with a 2/3 majority.. Albanian has been enhanced yes.. but its not fully offical..



This is an opinion.. many lawmakers (the majority) think otherwise.. this is something the constitutional court needs to decide..



False... this has been part of every single Albanian party from mk policy since independence.. the demand has been the same for over 25 years.. long before Tirana supported the law..


Nobody knows the cost.. but as Albanians are also tax payers who fill over 1/4 of the state budget, in sure the money can be found as it is found in many countries where there is multi language use.. there are plenty of European example countries where multi language administrations exist and doesn't effect the functionality of the state.




Firstly... I'm not saying that there aren't other countries in europe where minorities wish they had the language rights that exits in Macedonia.. but to say that there aren't other even Balkan cointries let alone European countries who's minority language laws are far greater than those of Macedonia for the Albanians (who make up one of the largest minority groups) of a country whos language isn't fully official is a bit far fetched..

Also lets not forget that the term "Albanian Language" has been wiped out for the term "over 20% population who speaks another language apart from Macedonian"

This in itself is rare and dergrading.. (but lets not get into this)



Why 20%? officially its 25% plus lets not forget that many self declaring ethnic Turks and Roma also speak or understand Albanian.. so the percentage at actually higher than 25%. Macedonians make up 65% not 80% .. most minorities don't use Macedonian as a mother tongue.

Also Albanian isn't being "imposed" on anyone.. nobody will be forced to learn or use Albanian if they don't want to.. this is a scare tactic.



For a human rights organization who had many years of great work and articles promoting the language rights of ethnic Macedonians outside RoM and who know very well the rights and needs of minority communities ...to be so much against the elevation of a minority language is disappointing.. I have and will always support ethnic Macedonians to express full language and identity rights (as do most Albanians) ..

I would really like to know the reaction from AMHRC if the same law was to be adopted for Macedonians in any country outside RoM where Macedonians live and see how much they would condemn the law..
The difference between Macedonians and Albanians is that most Macedonian minorities have assimilated into the countries they live in. They did not form a "Macedonian Liberation Army" and try to gain more rights with terrorism and acts of war where the Albanians have.

If the Albanians showed some loyalty to the Macedonian state then there would probably be no outrage against giving them as many rights as they want.

Deep down inside all Macedonians and Albanians know the end game is a greater Albania.

Now I still consider Macedonians very lucky to be in the position they are in. Why? Well because of the following

1. Albanians are emigrating en mass out of the country to the tune of 4-6000 a year. This is a devastating emigration rate for a population of around 470000

2. Birth rates are falling. The total fertility rate of the Albanians in Macedonia is probably similar to the Albanians in Kosovo approximately 2.1 kids per family. They will never be able to outbreed the Macedonians. Ever.

3. Albanian universities in their native language are the best thing we could ask for. The more educated the women are the less likely they will have 5 kids each. Also allows them to enter the work force giving them less time for caregiving

4. By gaining more "rights" they will think they have accomplished something. But the reality is Macedonia is a poor country and the Albanians are the poorest of the poor. So while they feel happy with their "rights" they will still have zero in the bank account and low job prospects and opportunities

5. One could argue that Albania is ahead of Macedonia on its path to the EU. If Albania gets into the EU before macedonia does it will suck out thousands of Albanians out of the country.
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:33 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mklion View Post
1. Albanians are emigrating en mass out of the country to the tune of 4-6000 a year. This is a devastating emigration rate for a population of around 470000

3. Albanian universities in their native language are the best thing we could ask for. The more educated the women are the less likely they will have 5 kids each. Also allows them to enter the work force giving them less time for caregiving

4. By gaining more "rights" they will think they have accomplished something. But the reality is Macedonia is a poor country and the Albanians are the poorest of the poor. So while they feel happy with their "rights" they will still have zero in the bank account and low job prospects and opportunities

5. One could argue that Albania is ahead of Macedonia on its path to the EU. If Albania gets into the EU before macedonia does it will suck out thousands of Albanians out of the country.
1. Are you sure your numbers are correct? Is this 1% emigration per year? So, will they totally vanish in 100 years?

3. LOL, yes. Education for women is the safest road for the demise of the human race. There will even be a day when gypsy women will have education.

4 . Genius. Just a genius plan.

5. Seriously now. This isn’t so. European Union will probably have a plan for many Western Balkan countries joining together so that one does not block the other. This isn’t in the near future (10 years), probably in 20 years. Also, life tends to have shocking events, so you never know.



===

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Old 03-16-2018, 05:21 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
This statement I believe has many errors.. (my opinion)

My opinion is that you have propounded many errors.


Incorrect.. the Albanian language isn't the second official language of the country.. this would require constitutional change with a 2/3 majority.. Albanian has been enhanced yes.. but its not fully offical..

If the law is Gazetted and put into practice, then yes it would be a second official state language. The law requires that every single document produced by the state, be in both Macedonian and Albanian. That is why we assert that the law is unconstitutional! This is the meaning of vtor sluzben jazik!



This is an opinion.. many lawmakers (the majority) think otherwise.. this is something the constitutional court needs to decide..

Yes it is an opinion and if the CC does its job properly, it will rule the law unconstitutional.



False... this has been part of every single Albanian party from mk policy since independence.. the demand has been the same for over 25 years.. long before Tirana supported the law..

It is not false, it has been stated as a foreign policy goal by the current administration in Albania. Some time ago the Albanian premier even went as far claiming credit for it, in public!

Nobody knows the cost.. but as Albanians are also tax payers who fill over 1/4 of the state budget, in sure the money can be found as it is found in many countries where there is multi language use.. there are plenty of European example countries where multi language administrations exist and doesn't effect the functionality of the state.

Of course the cost of producing every single state document in both languages will be excessive, not to mention all the translators and interpreters that will need to be hired in numerous other situations.




Firstly... I'm not saying that there aren't other countries in europe where minorities wish they had the language rights that exits in Macedonia.. but to say that there aren't other even Balkan cointries let alone European countries who's minority language laws are far greater than those of Macedonia for the Albanians (who make up one of the largest minority groups) of a country whos language isn't fully official is a bit far fetched..

It is not far fetched, it is a fact!

Also lets not forget that the term "Albanian Language" has been wiped out for the term "over 20% population who speaks another language apart from Macedonian"

This in itself is rare and dergrading.. (but lets not get into this)

You make absolutely no sense here with this comment.



Why 20%? officially its 25% plus lets not forget that many self declaring ethnic Turks and Roma also speak or understand Albanian.. so the percentage at actually higher than 25%. Macedonians make up 65% not 80% .. most minorities don't use Macedonian as a mother tongue.

Also Albanian isn't being "imposed" on anyone.. nobody will be forced to learn or use Albanian if they don't want to.. this is a scare tactic.

We say "around" 20%, because nobody knows what the precise figure is, as there has not been a census since 2002! So you are talking nonsense when you make claims about "actual" percentages. When we state 80% we mean the rest of the population, not just Macedonians. Albanian is imposed, because Albanians will not be the only ones paying for it, the remaining (estimated) 80% of the population will be paying for an unnecessary, very expensive, excessively burdensome law.



For a human rights organization who had many years of great work and articles promoting the language rights of ethnic Macedonians outside RoM and who know very well the rights and needs of minority communities ...to be so much against the elevation of a minority language is disappointing.. I have and will always support ethnic Macedonians to express full language and identity rights (as do most Albanians) ..

Unlike Macedonians in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania, the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia, already possess all the linguistic rights they need to lead a normal functional life. We are against this unnecessary undermining of the rule of law. Moreover, this unnecessary law is obviously part of a long term separatist agenda in the minds of a very substantial number of Albanian nationalists.

I would really like to know the reaction from AMHRC if the same law was to be adopted for Macedonians in any country outside RoM where Macedonians live and see how much they would condemn the law..
That would depend on the specifics of the context. Really, your position is untenable, there are substantial parts of Albania, where even the existence of Macedonians is still officially denied; so throwing up this question is simply an attempt to remove the discussion from reality.

Last edited by AMHRC; 03-16-2018 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:11 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis View Post
1. Are you sure your numbers are correct? Is this 1% emigration per year? So, will they totally vanish in 100 years?

3. LOL, yes. Education for women is the safest road for the demise of the human race. There will even be a day when gypsy women will have education.

4 . Genius. Just a genius plan.

5. Seriously now. This isnít so. European Union will probably have a plan for many Western Balkan countries joining together so that one does not block the other. This isnít in the near future (10 years), probably in 20 years. Also, life tends to have shocking events, so you never know.



===
1. Yes these are very accurate numbers based on official stats from the Macedonian State Statistical office which I have been reviewing over the past 3-4 years. They publish records of the number of Albanian students who study in their language all across the country. You can find the sources here

http://www.stat.gov.mk/PublikaciiPoO...id=41&rbrObl=5

If you look at the numbers from 2005 until present the stats are as follows

Albanian students........Total Number of Students in the country
2005 79428................235185 (34.0%)
2006 78486................228207 (33.8%)
2007 75141.Ö.............220833 (33.6%)
2008 72570................215078 (33.2%)
2009 69922................208980 (33.0%)
2010 66156................201914 (32.3%)
2011 65085................197859 (32.5%)
2012 63483................194055 (32.3%)
2013 62118................190541 (32.6%)
2014 62012................188361 (32.9%)
2015 60127................185119 (32.4%)

There is a decrease of almost 20000 students or a catastrophic 24% drop in approximately 10 years. This amounts to losing approximately 1900 students per year of Albanian ethnicity. This loss can only be due to emigration (likely) or having less kids on average (unlikely) since the Albanian Total fertility rate in Macedonia is around 2.1 kids per family.

So lets assume for sake of discussion that 1500 students emigrate - well that means that for every one student there is a mother and father that emigrate as well so 1500 X 3 = 4500 people.

This estimate does not include young emigrants with no kids. The older Albanians usually stay put and dont leave the country.

The point of Albanians emigrating is not that they will "disappear" what matters is that they become a small proportion of voters in the country who wont be able to influence election results.

3. An educated woman does not have 4 kids. Albanians in the country receive rights based on how many there are. For every Albanian that leaves the country the lower the chance they can influence change based on their numbers by receiving rights, voting or implementing nationalistic policies that only benefit them.

4. Its not a plan - its whats happening. While they celebrate "language rights" they leave the country at the first chance they get.

5.Greece is going to keep Macedonia out of the EU and Albania will be admitted probably before we are. The way Macedonians get Bulgarian passports to enter the EU why wouldn't Albanians? It would be much easier for them to do so.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:14 PM   #10
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If the law is Gazetted and put into practice, then yes it would be a second official state language. The law requires that every single document produced by the state, be in both Macedonian and Albanian
Since when does this mean that the Albanian language is fully official? Producing multi lingual state documents is far from making a language official ...

Albanian can only be classified as fully offical when it has parity with the Macedonian language at all levels and the constitution states it... Albanian has not become official.. it's use has been endanced.. yes.. and there are also elements of officialisation .. but its far from being and Official language of the state..

Quote:
That is why we assert that the law is unconstitutional!
That isn only in the competencies of the the Constitutional Court..

Quote:
It is not false, it has been stated as a foreign policy goal by the current administration in Albania. Some time ago the Albanian premier even went as far claiming credit for it, in public!
Rama was asked to get involved once the Albanian parties couldn't come together and agree to a joint platform after the elections...
This was never. "TIRANA PLATFORM" as the media kept repeating.. the platform and demands were all part of or have been part of the platforms of Albanian parties from Macedonia since independence... Tirana played the middle man to get all parties on board..

Quote:
Of course the cost of producing every single state document in both languages will be excessive, not to mention all the translators and interpreters that will need to be hired in numerous other situations.
Nobody know the total cost as I said.. the money can be found ..if hundreds of millions can be found for statues and boats in projects like "Skopje 2014" then a couple million shouldn't be a problem..

Quote:
You make absolutely no sense here with this comment.
What doesn't make sense exactly??
Its a fact that the term "Albanian Language" doesn't exist in the law!!

Quote:
We say "around" 20%, because nobody knows what the precise figure is, as there has not been a census since 2002!
Exactly the reason why you go by the last STATE OFFICAL FIGURES where Albanians are said to be 25% of the population... Until new figures are available..

Quote:
Unlike Macedonians in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania, the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia, already possess all the linguistic rights they need to lead a normal functional life.
I'm sorry but it's not up to you to decide at what level our linguistic rights are "enough" for us on our ancestral land..

We are entitled to full rights for a number or historical and political reasons.. both communities are the landlords and not where one is the landlord and the other the "kiradzija" ( tenant ).. and always must ask for permission for something that is widely available in many European democratic countries.

Quote:
Moreover, this unnecessary law is obviously part of a long term separatist agenda in the minds of a very substantial number of Albanian nationalists.
There are separatist and nationalist is every single ethinc group including Macedonians who dream of a Greater or Unified Macedonia.. I don't see how the mindset of different balkan peoples varies much on this topic..

The reality is (and I believe this has been discussed here in the past) that state borders for balkan countries never have been never will be decided by the people of the region.. so if one day borders change..it won't be because Albanians want them to or Serbs or Macedonians or greeks ect ..want them to.. it will be due to the fact that the big boys want them to.. we are all pawns.. we can only play the best game to our capabilities..
So in my opinion.. Macedonia as a state isn't going anywhere.. we all simply need to continue to work together and respect each others differences and requests.. because if nothing happens soon (economically). RoM will become empty of population..

Quote:
That would depend on the specifics of the context.
What specifics whould you need to come out and say.. No my fellow Macedonians.. "we don't want that enhanced status for our language.. we can't be like the Albanians and ask so much of Eg. Greece, Bulgaria, Albania) we need to reduce our demands!"

Would you ever release a statement that the Macedonian minority in x country is demanding too much.. we condem it?

I think not..
But you expect Albanians to come out and say.. no we don't deserve this law?

Quote:
your position is untenable, there are substantial parts of Albania, where even the existence of Macedonians is still officially denied; so throwing up this question is simply an attempt to remove the discussion from reality.
My position is very attainable.. we aren't talking about Albania here..
The reason why Macedonians in Albania don't have as many language rights is also a fault of there own..
Apart from the Macedonians in Prespa the others who you mention in eg..golobrdo and gora, Many flirt with the idea that they have a Bulgarian or Gorani identity.. and aren't really politically organised with a united voice..

I fully support all Macedonians in Albania receiving full language rights regardless of where they live..

Albanians in Bitola who now make about 4-5% of the Bitola region similar in percentage and number to the
Macedonians of the Korca region dream to have the language rights that exits in Pustec for a minority..

Albanians in Bitola, Prespa/Resen, Ohrid, Veles, Prilep, Demir hisar, (who make up about 10,000-15,000 people) have zero language rights at the local level apart from Education.. Administratively they have zero language use rights)
Would you as a human rights organisiation support these groups who are a Minority within a Minority and who's language and culture are most at risk to have the right to express themselves in their own mother tongue? In dealings with the state?
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