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Old 02-15-2018, 09:18 PM   #201
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Old 02-20-2018, 10:56 PM   #202
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Études byzantines et post-byzantines, Volume 4 - page 201.

French:
"Cest pourquoi, la conscience en paix, mais prêt toutefois à faire amende honorable s'il nous était prouvé que nous avons fait fausse route dans l'interprétation du fragment cité de Nicandre, nous n'hésitons pas à considérer que son témoignage sur la présence d'individus d'origine lointainement italienne dans le peuplement de Coron avant 1532 concerne effectivement l'ethnie valaque de Morée. Une explication de l'émigration à Coron de ces gens que nous considérons Valaques nous est suggeree par la lecture d'un ouvrage du regrette Zakythinos..."

English:
"That is why, conscience in peace, but ready however to make amends if we were proved that we have made a mistake in the interpretation of the quoted fragment of Nicander, we do not hesitate to consider that his testimony on the presence of individuals of distant Italian origin in the settlement of Coron before 1532 actually concerns the Vlach ethnic group of Morea. An explanation of the emigration to Coron of these people whom we consider Vlachs is suggested to us by the reading of a book of ... Zakythinos..."

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=les...oVD_cQ6AEINzAC
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk....0.6Ma_k1KhOcQ
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:31 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
Thanks for this although I'm not sure this changes anything. People identified or might have thought of themselves as Greek in the middle ages (even though they may have spoken Albanian or Vlach natively), and/or were perceived as such by others and outsiders. Even Slavs claimed to be descended from ancient Greeks, for which we know a specific episode but I will not belabor it here.

Although below is not about Demetrios, let me share something about Laonikos Chalkokondyles.

As per Anthony Kaldellis, Professor of Classics at The Ohio State University:

- Laonikos Chalkokondyles was essentially an Ottoman historian, albeit one writing in Greek and enmeshed in the classical tradition.
- He was fluent in both Latin and Greek. (My question would be, did he also know and speak any other 'oral non-written' languages?)
- Influenced by Plethon (= the idea that the "Byzantines" or ROMANS were really Hellenes, and not who they themselves claimed to be).
- Laonikos himself obtained from Plethon his personal copy of Herodotus - "corrected" in Plethon's own hand.
- He breaks from "Byzantine" tradition, and does not mention any previous "Byzantine" historian(s).
- He wrote for a specific audience, most likely post conquest Constantinople.
- Not at all interested in the Roman and Christian dimensions of "Byzantine" civilization.

If a person read Laonikos in detail he/she must be willing to accept many inconsistencies and errors, but also be intellectualy honest and agree with him FULLY on certain notions and ideas. As per Laonikos, the Greeks in his time were restricted to the Peloponnese and the area around Constantinople ----> as a result, there were no Greeks north of the Peloponnese (save for basically Constantinople).

One curious thing that jumps out though is that he himself outlines and specifies the (large) presence of other ethnicities in the Peloponnese. Don't believe me? : ) Well, let's take a look at the following citations:

VOL. 1, Book 5 - Page 395: "...the Albanians of the Peloponnese assembled in the interior, at a place called Davia, appointed a general of their own..."

VOL. 1, Book 2 - Page 161: "...Evrenos immediately rose to great power when he invaded the Peloponnese and coastal Macedonia, where he fought against the Albanians..."

VOL. 1, Book 6 - Page 55 speaking of the Vlachs: "...they settled in many places, including some parts of Lakonia in the Peloponnese, on Mount Taygetos and at Tainaron, just as another group of this people settled from Dacia about the Pindos range, extending down to Thessaly. Both groups are called Vlachs..."

VOL. 1 Book 6 - Page 65 speaking about Albanians, living in areas from the north down to Achaia: "The territory that extends down to Achaia is inhabited by Arabaioi, who are Albanian men..."


PS: Unrelated but VOL. 1 Book 3, Page 213: "The Russians (SARMATIANS) are a race that for the most part speaks the language of the ILLYRIANS."
Laonikos also calls the French 'Celts', the Hungarians 'Paionians', the Serbs 'Triballi', the Bosnians 'Illyrians'.


PPS: VOL. 1 Book 4, Page 303 Speaking about the Hexamilion wall: "After that Justinian, the king of the Romans, fortified it a second time" A Justinianic inscription was actually found when the 1415 wall was built (Sphrantzes, Chronicle 4.2).
Book title:
Ἁρμονια ὁριστικη των ὀντων κατα τους Ἑλληνων σοφους ... Harmonia definitiva entium, de mente Graecorū doctorum

The Definitive Harmony of Things According to Greek Thinkers

The author:
Gerasimos Vlachos (1607–1685) was a Greek scholar of the Renaissance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerasimos_Vlachos

https://books.google.com/books?id=Qm...page&q&f=false

Last edited by tchaiku; 02-22-2018 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:04 PM   #204
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Vlachos was not related to Peloponnesos.
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Old 02-23-2018, 01:12 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphipolis View Post
Vlachos was not related to Peloponnesos.
I know.

--------
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:50 AM   #206
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At the time when Ioannis Kantakouzenos ruled Byzantium, the prince of Mystras, Manuel Kantakouzenos, because in Peloponnesus the rural population had been thinned by the raids of the Franks and Turks, and in many areas the fields and vines remained uncultivated, he sent sent to Albania and called for 10,000 Albanians, who came with their families and settled in the countryside. They established separate settlements and worked in the fields of feudal lords for a piece of bread.

After a few years, when Mystra's despot was Theodore I (the son of the emperor of Byzantium John IV Palaiologos), Theodore called another 10,000 Albanian families and settled them in the various areas of the Despotate. ( See . E . Legrand, «Lettres de l Empereur Manuel Paleologue», Paris, 1893, pp . 40-41).

Total 20,000 families after the Black Plague that wiped 40% to 70% of the population.
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:10 AM   #207
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Wrong thread.

Last edited by tchaiku; 02-24-2018 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:59 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
1)
3) Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer (1790-1861).

Focusing on the Albanians, this is how Fallmerayer described the Morea in the 19th century:

i) If the many colonies of Albanian immigrants had already exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek, as their predecessors, the Slavs, had done, and as could have happened over the centuries, the opponents of my theory of Albanian migration covering all of new Greece would have had an easier time of it refusing to believe me, because the new arrivals, comrades in religion and governance of the Greek-speakers, did not have the same destructive influence on place names, as did the Slavs. Phrantzes asserts: “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.” In the works of Chalkokondylas, Spandugino and Phrantzes, or similarly concerning the Slavic occupation of the Peloponnese in Evagrius, Constantine Porphyrogenetus, the Scholiast of Strabo and Patriarch Nicholas, the above-mentioned scholars would only come up with the same old explanations, i.e. that “these are merely assertions of a general nature that must be treated with caution when applied; they are assertions that reflect more a lack of knowledge or imprecision on the part of the writer than truth and exactitude.” Unfortunately for the friends of ancient Greek cause, gentle folk they may be, though not particularly astute, the inhabitants of the Academy of Plato and of all of Attica, of Boeotia, Megara, Corinth, Argolis, Hydra, Spetzia, Phlius and the interior of the Morea, have preserved the customs, language and clothing of their native land to the present day. However, if we take a look solely at the Peloponnese, no one would accept that the martial advance of the Albanians through the peninsula at the time of Cantacuzene simply came to a stop and consisted merely of a few small units of men or a few mercenaries who left their families at home. Once curious piece of information is preserved in the funeral oration of Theodor Palaeologus, the successor of Cantacuzene in Mistra (1380-1407), that shows just how continuously and massively the Albanians flooded across the isthmus: “Ten thousand Illyrians, i.e. Albanians, were given residence in the Peloponnese by Theodor Palaeologus, and these ten thousand men brought their women and children, their possessions and animals with them.”

If one considers that all the families of Albanians who arrived in the Morea during the rule of Manuel Cantacuzene and Theodor Palaeologus, in the province of Mistra. i.e. in the Eurotas valley, had to be accommodated in southeastern Arcadia, Tsakonia and the towards Argolis, it is easy to see that the districts inhabited by Slavs and, on the east side, apparently by some remnants of the ancient Greeks, were largely empty. And if one considers that before and during these events there was a time when there were less than 150,000 people in the whole of the Peloponnese, one can easily comprehend how limited the knowledge of the philosopher Plethon in the fifteenth century was, who refused to accept any substantial alteration in the population of the Peloponnese. The same is can be said of his successors in the present day, at least in this part of the world.


ii) Nerio had empty villages, fallow fields, many enemies and no soldiers. The Albanians were on the lookout for land, war and booty.

iii) Several years later, the adventuresome Castellan of Corinth gained control over most of the lands of the Parea that were plunged into war and subject to Sicilian influence, and spread Albanian colonies to Attica and Boeotia where this people still resides pure and unmixed with others. With the exception of some villages in Boeotia and the cities of Thebes and Athens where the population during the last uprising was a mixture of people from all regions, Albanian blood is dominant and is most prevalent in the lower classes. At the present time, Athens, the capital of the new kingdom, is more Albanian than it was during the uprising because, after the expulsion of the much-hated and feared Ottomans, the Albanian population abandoned the countryside in great numbers and settled in the city.
When I read Fallmerayer's comment about Plethon's successors, it felt like he wrote it today.
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Old 05-05-2018, 01:14 PM   #209
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Armanoi hoi Vlachoi, N. I. Mertzos, Rekos, 2001. Page 57:

"Proof of this migration and settlement of Epirote Vlachs and Macedonian Vlachs in the Peloponnese are the place names at the sea coast areas of Laconia and Messenia: Blatsi, Veroia, Sopoto (fount/spring in Vlach), Trikala, Fanari, Vella, Soudena, Hasia, Lasia (Laista), Almyro, and so on."
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:04 PM   #210
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Sokratis Liakos, "The origins of the Armani (Vlachs)"

Page 75, footnote 206

- Footnote 206:
As it is written in the Great Greek Encyclopedia, ... , that Vlach word still exists in villages of Mesa Mani [Mesa Mani is called the Mani side that is on Kalamata bay]. From the Maniot of Corsica dictionary, we also get that before 1680 they had kept many other Latin-Macedonian words and verbal forms, such as alafrynesko, meinesko, plithynesko, etc. Moreover, many names and surnames of Maniots of that time were clearly Vlach.



Page 111, footnote 304

- Footnote 304:
See report of Venetian Administrator .... where it is mentioned that the people of mountainous villages of the Peloponnese were a mixture of orthodox popluations, a fact, of course, that confirms the presence of Vlachs and it also comes out from an order of the Venetians and from the Maniot songs that send to the devil the Vlach and the Moraitiki language, because they [speakers of Vlach and of Moraitiki] were making fun of the Maniot language and also from the nickname Vlachs that was given not only to Arcadians but also to a part of Maniots. Also see M. Lamprinidou, "The Albanians in mainland Greece and the Peloponnese".

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