Zaev hints at referendum on name

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  • Vangelovski
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 8530

    #16
    Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
    But will a change in name succeed in their admittance to the EU or NATO?
    I have no doubt that Greece will veto Macedonia no matter what. Or that others may put up new demands. I'm convinced that its Greece's intention to never let Macedonia join the EU or NATO no matter what it sacrifices. But its irrelevant to the calculation. When have Macedonians allowed logic to dictate their actions? They've always met new demands with subservience in the vague hope that somehow they may one day join the EU.

    In their minds this would practically guarantee membership. They have little to no foresight, so when it all fails, they will simply pull out the old "20/20 hindsight" argument and pretend that no one ever warned them to the contrary.

    Its not about how the world really is, rather how Macedonians perceive it to be. And they perceive a land of milk and honey with pensions for everyone waiting for them in the magical land of Brussels.

    On an interesting side note, in 1995 Macedonia was still minting coins with the slogan "leb za site" celebrating the socialist revolution. I think those coins are still in circulation. It summarises their mentality and where they think money comes from (someone else). Don't ever underestimate what they will do to avoid any and all responsibility for themselves, i za edno parce leb, like the dogs they've become.
    Last edited by Vangelovski; 05-12-2017, 01:27 AM.
    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

    Comment

    • Phoenix
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2008
      • 4671

      #17
      Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
      I have no doubt that Greece will veto Macedonia no matter what. Or that others may put up new demands. I'm convinced that its Greece's intention to never let Macedonia join the EU or NATO no matter what it sacrifices...
      I totally agree with this...
      Last edited by Phoenix; 05-12-2017, 02:32 AM.

      Comment

      • Bill77
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2009
        • 4545

        #18
        If I can find anything amusing about the current situation in Macedonia.....
        Is Greece's dilemma. They worked so hard to get SDSM in power, now they would be nervous they might actually have to deliver.

        But that's where the humour ends. God help us because I can see things may well end in Macedonia formally joining NATO where rubber spined Zaev signs off on whatever name Greece gives him. Greece will not hesitate to take this opportunity to once and for all, completely eliminate (which there would be never turning back) any reference of the word Macedonia. And as an extra reward for Greece..... It will be twisted so Greece will come out looking like the peace maker, a tolerant nation.


        On a side note....."Ednas majka junak ragja" lol
        It can be argued Gruevski should go to jail..... But there is no argument what so ever Zaev neds to be in a mental institution, even if it wasn't him personally that posted this.


        And looking at the comments section...... It's jaw dropping to see just how many Albanians commenting and applauding this post of his on Facebook. It's absolutely sickening.
        Last edited by Bill77; 05-12-2017, 04:36 AM.
        http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

        Comment

        • Tomche Makedonche
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2011
          • 1123

          #19
          Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
          On a side note....."Ednas majka junak ragja" lol.
          From zajak to bilbil
          “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

          Comment

          • DraganOfStip
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2011
            • 1253

            #20
            Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
            On a side note....."Ednas majka junak ragja" lol
            It can be argued Gruevski should go to jail..... But there is no argument what so ever Zaev neds to be in a mental institution, even if it wasn't him personally that posted this.

            And looking at the comments section...... It's jaw dropping to see just how many Albanians commenting and applauding this post of his on Facebook. It's absolutely sickening.
            This is not Zajko's personal FB profile.
            It's another of those fan-made public figure profiles where the sympathizers publish daily propaganda favoring their idol.
            In this case, probably people that Zajko's promised to give state jobs when he assumes power.
            ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
            ― George Orwell

            Comment

            • Bill77
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2009
              • 4545

              #21
              Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
              This is not Zajko's personal FB profile.
              It's another of those fan-made public figure profiles where the sympathizers publish daily propaganda favoring their idol.
              In this case, probably people that Zajko's promised to give state jobs when he assumes power.
              I thought so.... Though I would not have been surprised if it was him. There are people with mental disorders on both sides.
              http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

              Comment

              • Pelagonija
                Member
                • Mar 2017
                • 533

                #22
                Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                If I can find anything amusing about the current situation in Macedonia.....
                Is Greece's dilemma. They worked so hard to get SDSM in power, now they would be nervous they might actually have to deliver.

                But that's where the humour ends. God help us because I can see things may well end in Macedonia formally joining NATO where rubber spined Zaev signs off on whatever name Greece gives him. Greece will not hesitate to take this opportunity to once and for all, completely eliminate (which there would be never turning back) any reference of the word Macedonia. And as an extra reward for Greece..... It will be twisted so Greece will come out looking like the peace maker, a tolerant nation.


                On a side note....."Ednas majka junak ragja" lol
                It can be argued Gruevski should go to jail..... But there is no argument what so ever Zaev neds to be in a mental institution, even if it wasn't him personally that posted this.


                And looking at the comments section...... It's jaw dropping to see just how many Albanians commenting and applauding this post of his on Facebook. It's absolutely sickening.
                You should check out the SDSM Facebook profile.. bloody chockers with supportive Albs..

                Comment

                • Gocka
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2012
                  • 2306

                  #23
                  Dragan,

                  Does the Macedonian curriculum have civics classes part of it today?

                  As a kid I don't ever remember being taught civic. We had religion and history, but never anything teaching us about how government works and the constitution.

                  Most Macedonians are completely oblivious to how a democracy works. I can't count the amount of times I have heard, "what do you care, the government pays for it", from Macedonians. In the USA people are pretty ignorant about the fine details, but most people grasp the simple fact that the government has no money, that is your money.

                  That's why Macedonians are still so in love with communism, they still can't understand that whatever benefits they got, were somehow paid for by them, or their fellow countrymen, or in the case of loans being taken out, again those loans are the burden of the citizens to repay.

                  The see the government ass some shadow organization that descended from the heavens. Everything a government does is disconnected from reality.

                  Honestly some basic civics knowledge could propel Macedonia upward several notches.

                  Comment

                  • DraganOfStip
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2011
                    • 1253

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                    Dragan,

                    Does the Macedonian curriculum have civics classes part of it today?

                    As a kid I don't ever remember being taught civic. We had religion and history, but never anything teaching us about how government works and the constitution.

                    Most Macedonians are completely oblivious to how a democracy works. I can't count the amount of times I have heard, "what do you care, the government pays for it", from Macedonians. In the USA people are pretty ignorant about the fine details, but most people grasp the simple fact that the government has no money, that is your money.

                    That's why Macedonians are still so in love with communism, they still can't understand that whatever benefits they got, were somehow paid for by them, or their fellow countrymen, or in the case of loans being taken out, again those loans are the burden of the citizens to repay.

                    The see the government ass some shadow organization that descended from the heavens. Everything a government does is disconnected from reality.

                    Honestly some basic civics knowledge could propel Macedonia upward several notches.
                    The curriculum has a subject called Society (Oпштество) which is the closest thing to civic but far from it's core and what it's supposed to be taught.
                    It teaches kids about culture, a citizen's place in the society, general things about living surroundings and social aspects of modern times, but that's as close as it gets.
                    I have even posted examples here of how kids are being taught to be obedient and respect authority (specifically government), which is a clear attempt to shape them into servile and non-resistant zombies. There were many complaints about this and I don't know if it's omitted in new editions of the schoolbook as a result.
                    ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                    ― George Orwell

                    Comment

                    • DraganOfStip
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2011
                      • 1253

                      #25
                      Not sure if it's also the case in the west, but here the "non-conviction paper" is being more and more required when applying for certain jobs.
                      It is a paper issued by your local court and it's purpose is to prove to your potential employer that you have no criminal record and that there are no legal proceedings against you at the moment of issue.
                      Yesterday, while presenting the names for the future ministers in the government, Zajko said that he will send a memo to the Public Prosecutor and the Special Prosecutors' office requesting information if any of the candidates for ministers are under investigation. If it is the case, he/she will not be allowed to hold the office. And that is an excellent move, since most people would agree that criminals shouldn't be allowed to become government officials.
                      However, he didn't say whether he'll apply the same standards for himself, knowing he's currently under 2 investigations in the Public Prosecution. It is hypocritical to say the least, that you don't allow certain people to hold an office because they're being investigated, and you yourself hold arguably the most important office of all while under investigation.
                      It would be a good idea that everyone that applies for office is obligated to present this non-conviction paper as a condition to run it.
                      Are you aware of anything similar to this in your respective countries?
                      Last edited by DraganOfStip; 05-29-2017, 01:54 AM.
                      ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                      ― George Orwell

                      Comment

                      • Spirit
                        Member
                        • May 2015
                        • 154

                        #26
                        Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                        Not sure if it's also the case in the west, but here the "non-conviction paper" is being more and more required when applying for certain jobs.
                        It is a paper issued by your local court and it's purpose is to prove to your potential employer that you have no criminal record and that there are no legal proceedings against you at the moment of issue.
                        Yesterday, while presenting the names for the future ministers in the government, Zajko said that he will send a memo to the Public Prosecutor and the Special Prosecutors' office requesting information if any of the candidates for ministers are under investigation. If it is the case, he/she will not be allowed to hold the office. And that is an excellent move, since most people would agree that criminals shouldn't be allowed to become government officials.
                        However, he didn't say whether he'll apply the same standards for himself, knowing he's currently under 2 investigations in the Public Prosecution. It is hypocritical to say the least, that you don't allow certain people to hold an office because they're being investigated, and you yourself hold arguably the most important office of all while under investigation.
                        It would be a good idea that everyone that applies for office is obligated to present this non-conviction paper as a condition to run it.
                        Are you aware of anything similar to this in your respective countries?
                        Dragan, it is required in the industry I work in (Social and Community Services) here in Australia that any potential employees undergo a criminal record check prior to being employed.

                        Comment

                        • Vangelovski
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 8530

                          #27
                          Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                          Not sure if it's also the case in the west, but here the "non-conviction paper" is being more and more required when applying for certain jobs.
                          It is a paper issued by your local court and it's purpose is to prove to your potential employer that you have no criminal record and that there are no legal proceedings against you at the moment of issue.
                          Yesterday, while presenting the names for the future ministers in the government, Zajko said that he will send a memo to the Public Prosecutor and the Special Prosecutors' office requesting information if any of the candidates for ministers are under investigation. If it is the case, he/she will not be allowed to hold the office. And that is an excellent move, since most people would agree that criminals shouldn't be allowed to become government officials.
                          However, he didn't say whether he'll apply the same standards for himself, knowing he's currently under 2 investigations in the Public Prosecution. It is hypocritical to say the least, that you don't allow certain people to hold an office because they're being investigated, and you yourself hold arguably the most important office of all while under investigation.
                          It would be a good idea that everyone that applies for office is obligated to present this non-conviction paper as a condition to run it.
                          Are you aware of anything similar to this in your respective countries?
                          In Australia, every government employee and many contractors from private firms working for the government (especially if they need to enter government premises) need to have a police check and a security clearance. But a conviction is very different from being investigated. Innocent until proven guilty.
                          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                          Comment

                          • Tomche Makedonche
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2011
                            • 1123

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                            In Australia, every government employee and many contractors from private firms working for the government (especially if they need to enter government premises) need to have a police check and a security clearance. But a conviction is very different from being investigated. Innocent until proven guilty.
                            I would also add that in some states police checks are also a requirement for adults who work with children, even in a voluntary capacity (i.e. coaching or assisting with children's sports teams, etc). So yeah, police checks are a pretty standard and common thing in Australia.
                            Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 05-29-2017, 09:09 AM.
                            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                            Comment

                            • DraganOfStip
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2011
                              • 1253

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                              But a conviction is very different from being investigated. Innocent until proven guilty.
                              Here, the non-conviction paper includes both past convictions AND current processes against you (ongoing at the date of issue of the document), so future employers are aware of any issues you may have with the law, whether you're guilty or not.
                              It may be discriminatory towards people in that aspect (like you said the presumption of innocence isn't taken into consideration), but I believe this should be mandatory with all state employees in future, especially people that run your country like prime ministers, presidents, mayors, ambassadors, ministers, deputies etc.
                              I know several individuals from Stip with criminal records that got employed in the police (talking about irony), and we even have the future prime minister caught on videotape asking for bribe. We need some kind of a mechanism that will prevent such things.
                              Last edited by DraganOfStip; 05-29-2017, 10:13 AM.
                              ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                              ― George Orwell

                              Comment

                              • Solun
                                Member
                                • Sep 2012
                                • 166

                                #30
                                Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                                Here, the non-conviction paper includes both past convictions AND current processes against you (ongoing at the date of issue of the document), so future employers are aware of any issues you may have with the law, whether you're guilty or not.
                                It may be discriminatory towards people in that aspect (like you said the presumption of innocence isn't taken into consideration), but I believe this should be mandatory with all state employees in future, especially people that run your country like prime ministers, presidents, mayors, ambassadors, ministers, deputies etc.
                                I know several individuals from Stip with criminal records that got employed in the police (talking about irony), and we even have the future prime minister caught on videotape asking for bribe. We need some kind of a mechanism that will prevent such things.
                                The future prime minister is completely innocent, because Katica Janeva says so

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