Greeks involved in wars

[Voltron]

Without your jokes, this thread would not be as nearly interesting. Let continue further your infamous joke:

Illyrians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Thracians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Epirotes not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Dacians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Celts not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Etruscans not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Scythians not being Greek is the myth, not logic.

Why your logic suddenly passes into mythic grounds? The crash between Macedonians and Greeks was not limited only in that Olympic competition: the ancient literature is loaded with full ethnic riots of Greeks against Macedonians. John Shea stated that even to medium Greeks (the case of athletes), Macedonians were seen as foreigners.

But this does not belong here, does it? Voltron you're jumping from one thread to another, so most of your replies have nothing to do with the thread.

Ancient literature is also filled with plethora of evidence supporting Ancient Macedonians Hellenic origins.
We have Language,Religion,Archeogical Artifacts,Olympics and even Self Admission to name a few.
The only thing you have is speculation and heresay. That is it. Show me something solid and il believe you.

[Voltron]

Yes we do, Alexander had to prove why he should enter a Greek only Game. Being Macedonian was not proof.

Bill, which is it? Are we going to take Herodotus seriously or not ?
Anything else aside from heresay ? Dig up a tablet lately ? Strange writings ? Anything concrete ? Why is it even today there is nothing that is turning up to show the opposite. In fact everything that is being uncovered is only confirming the obvious. You should ask Borza today what he thinks. Regarding John Shea, isnt he married to an ethnic Macedonian woman ?

[makgerman]

Answer to Voltron's query:

Epirot,

Im interested to see the ethnic riots that you mentioned.

Greek facists clash with immigrants - YouTube

Greek far right hold anti - foreigner rally in central Athens - YouTube

Muslim invaders are rioting and destroying Greece while the Bolshevik EU blames Greek authorities - YouTube

Bloody attacks against Afghan refugees in Greece - YouTube

[Bill77]

Voltron.....Why would a Macedonian (Alexander) not be accepted as Greek?

Christ what else does it take ppl ?

[Voltron]

Cause they probably thought he was a fast running hick from the Macedonian bush. Thats why Bill.
You never got left out of a team Bill ? Kicked out of a treehouse perhaps ? Does that have any relevancy to the persons ethnicity? And after that insult, the Hellenodicae simply "investigated" and accepted Alexanders response.

Now why would the Hellenodicae accept a foreigner to the games ? Did they have any special interest in Alexander competing ? Give me something to work with here Bill. A scribbled rock for example would be nice.

[Bill77]

Cause they probably thought he was a fast running hick from the Macedonian bush. Thats why Bill.
You never got left out of a team Bill ? Kicked out of a treehouse perhaps ? Does that have any relevancy to the persons ethnicity?

I don't know, but i do know being a Macedonian had no relevance in proof to be Greek.

Now why would the Hellenodicae accept a foreigner to the games ? Did they have any special interest in Alexander competing ?

Herodotus considered the Macedonian king Alexander I, a Philhellene (that is "a friend of the Greeks" and logically a non-Greek). Mabe these Hellenodicae thought the same of him. Alexander being king and all, politics had something to do with it. If he was some ordinary citizen, they would have grabbed him by the ears and the door would have been showed. But it wasn't which made the competitors irate. How scandalous, what a corrupt commitee. Some things just doesn't change in Greece.

Give me something to work with here Bill.

Here you go....

In Ancient times, Macedonian was not proof he was Greek. Today, its proof that Macedonian was not Greek. Now if the Protesting competitors accused Alexander I of Macedonia as not being Macedonian, then it would be logic that Greeks considered Macedonians as Greeks.

Instead, they called Alexander a Barbarian in protest. A Macedonian.

Christ what else does it take ppl ?

[Voltron]

XXII. Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, AS THEY THEMSELVES SAY, I MYSELF CHANCE TO KNOW AND WILL PROVE IT in the later part of my history. Furthermore, the Hellenodicae who manage the contest at Olympia determined that it is so, [2] for when Alexander chose to contend and entered the lists for that purpose, the Greeks who were to run against him wanted to bar him from the race, saying that the contest should be for Greeks and not for foreigners. Alexander, however, proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek. He accordingly competed in the furlong race and tied step for first place. This, then, is approximately what happened.

Here Bill, now if other Greeks regarded the Macedonians as hillibillies that doesnt discount the fact they were ethnically Greeks.

[Epirot]

Ancient literature is also filled with plethora of evidence supporting Ancient Macedonians Hellenic origins.

.

That's cheating, Voltron! Most of literary sources provide to us the non-Greek being of Macedonians as well as Illyrians, Thracians, Epirotes, Etruscans, Celts, etc.

We have Language,Religion,Archeogical Artifacts,Olympics and even Self Admission to name a few.

You have just the illusion of knowledge and a fertile imagination to Greacize every non-Greek people. The religion of Macedonians was not Greek at all since it contained obvious Pre-Greek (Pelasgian) and Thracian features. From when religion should be treated as an indicator of ethnicity?

The only thing you have is speculation and heresay. That is it. Show me something solid and il believe you

Voltron it's not our fault that all of your myths are crushed in the light of facts and modern scholars. I have not enough time to re-post again all the materials.

"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.[2

This quote has been put forward by every net warrior from Greece to assigning a Greek character to the Macedonians. But, you do not seem to understand some keywords, that refute your interpretation. Herodotus is not referring to all Macedonians as Greeks, but only to the descendants of Perdicas, namely the royal line. Even if we admit Herodotus's opinion on Greek being of royal house of Macedonia, Greeks of his time never ceased to call Macedonian kings as barbarian, that is alien to the Greek ethnos.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

That's cheating, Voltron! Most of literary sources provide to us the non-Greek being of Macedonians as well as Illyrians, Thracians, Epirotes, Etruscans, Celts, etc.

Cheating ? Im not the one posting historians from their spouses perspective. The thing is Epirot is that we do have something for Thracians, Etruscans, Celts, Illyrians(a lot less but still) You are wrong on two however, Macedonians and Epirotes. Both are completely Hellenic in nature.

You have just the illusion of knowledge and a fertile imagination to Greacize every non-Greek people. The religion of Macedonians was not Greek at all since it contained obvious Pre-Greek (Pelasgian) and Thracian features. From when religion should be treated as an indicator of ethnicity?

Enlighten me.

Voltron it's not our fault that all of your myths are crushed in the light of facts and modern scholars. I have not enough time to re-post again all the materials.

You dont have to repost the materials Epirot. I have seen it all before, but that still doesnt overwrite common sense. You dont have to be a historian to know the obvious. Its all there, just a plane ticket away to see for yourself. At the end of the day the Anc Macedonians had the power and the means to make an impact on their own culture, language and even writing. But they didnt, therefore the only reason is that they were in fact Greeks to begin with. Simple.

This quote has been put forward by every net warrior from Greece to assigning a Greek character to the Macedonians. But, you do not seem to understand some keywords, that refute your interpretation. Herodotus is not referring to all Macedonians as Greeks, but only to the descendants of Perdicas, namely the royal line. Even if we admit Herodotus's opinion on Greek being of royal house of Macedonia, Greeks of his time never ceased to call Macedonian kings as barbarian, that is alien to the Greek ethnos.

And the royal line position has been quoted by every net warrior as well. The Pella tablet pretty much destroys that idea since it most likely came from a commoner. I never understood why insults in antiquity are taken so serious. Everything is based on the word barbarian as if that term cannot be taken out of context to insult someone. We do it everyday and nobody takes notice.

[Epirot]

You are wrong on two however, Macedonians and Epirotes. Both are completely Hellenic in nature.

I assure you on the behalf of all ancient testimonies that Epirotes were never counted as Greeks. Here we go with Plutarch:

Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great inundation, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Others tell us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus,under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides; he married Phthia, the daughter of Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time of the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas, daughters, and Pyrrhus, a son.

http://www.greektexts.com/library/Pl...s/eng/824.html

We can deduce from above Pluarch's citation a couple of conclusions:

1. Pelasgus and Phaeton (probably a reference to the Pelasgi) were the first to intrude in Epirus. So there's nothing Greek in Epirus in prehistoric times.

2. The language of Epirotes was considered as distinct from that of Greece.

3. The country has been barbarian, that is non-Greek, until Tharypas efforts for hellenizing the country.

4. The Hellenism in Epirus is relatively new as it come as result of Hellenizing efforts of kings of Epirus.

Philip contracted an alliance with Neoptolemos, king of the Illyrian Molossians, and married his daughter Olympias in 357 B.C".

The McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of world biography, pg.409

Many tumuli (burial mounds) containing Illyrian objects made of bronze and iron were discovered at Glasinac (Bosnia), Koman (Albania), and other parts of southeastern Europe. At the height of their expansion the Illyrians extended their frontiers from the Danube River to the Gulf of Ambracia and from the Adriatic Sea to the Shar Mountains.

The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 1, 1987, pg. 212

Enlighten me.

Sure! The Pelasgians are said to have passed their religion to the new emerged Greek nation. It comes obvious from ancient sources that even Macedonia was peopled from the Pelasgians. Achilles prays to:

"High Zeus, Lord of Dodona, Pelasgian, living afar off, brooding over wintry Dodona".

[Bill77]

Here Bill, now if other Greeks regarded the Macedonians as hillibillies that doesnt discount the fact they were ethnically Greeks.

A nice own goal mate. Here read your own post again,

the Greeks who were to run against him wanted to bar him from the race, saying that the contest should be for Greeks and not for foreigners.

So they did not regard them as hillbillies, but non Greeks. A seperate ethnicity.

Its so clear..... Christ what else does it take ppl ????

Logic says the Hellenodicae would have bought King Alexanders Argive story for political reasons.

Fact says, the ancient Greeks were not that stupid and the contest should be for Greeks and not for foreigners (A Macedonian).

So....Why was it not proof that Alexander "a Macedonian" was Greek ?

Why didn't the Greeks say "you are Macedonian, therefor you are Grik no need to explain anything".

[dimi28495]

Preston Makedonia v Sydney Olympic - RUN GREEKS RUN! - YouTube

[Onur]

I found an interesting video by coincidence on youtube. The testimonies of Albanians who got forcibly expelled out from northwest Greece shortly after WW-2. They threw out about ~35.000 Albanian at that time and afaik, they are not allowed to return Greece since then;

Greek crimes in Epirus against Ethnic Arvanites / Albanians !! - YouTube