The Ancient Macedonian Language

[Soldier of Macedon]

Isn't it interesting how a word spelt backwards can mean the same thing.

nogitna
*Negotna

I want to believe that this is how it happened. If Macedonians spelt their words right to left like other ancient people, and Greeks left to right perhaps it explains some things in the transliteration.

The megalo-golemo and kade-deka examples show that re-arranged words generally have the same or similar meanings. If this is the rule, how would the antigonea-negotino example measure up? The name Antigonos, which I assume comes from anti (instead) and gonos (offspring), is given the so-called meanings 'comparable to his father' or 'worthy of his father' in Hellenic.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is an interesting example with regard to one of the PIE words for a 'molar' or 'tooth', which is ǵómbho.

Later Satem examples include variants such as jambha (Sanskrit), žambas (Lithuanian), zǫbŭ (Old Macedonian/Church Slavonic); but also the more archaic zamb (Macedonian/Kostur Dialect). All of these show evidence of the PIE aspirated consonant bh becoming a voiced stop b, which was mentioned earlier as a common feature between the Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic linguistic groups. There is also dhëmb (Albanian), which belongs to the Satem group but has developed a sound at the beginning of the word which is unlike others in either group.

Centum examples of this word can include gomphos (Anc. Attic) and keme (Tocharian), but also kamb (Germanic), which has close proximity to komb (Anc. Maced.). Both Germanic and ancient Macedonian also show the voiced stop consonant b, as the Satem group.

Due to a lack of more elaborate surviving texts and inscriptions, it is difficult to determine the extent of influence on ancient Macedonian from foreign (non-Satem) sources. The above example may merely imply stronger than usual Centum reflexes in a Satem tongue, as can also be found in Balto-Slavic languages. For example, in modern Macedonian the word for 'rock' is kamen, in Lithuanian it is akmuo, both showing Centum influence, deriving from PIE heḱmōn. However, in other Satem languages the k is substituted for an s, so in Sanskrit it is asma, in Thracian it is asam, and even in Pelasgian it is asám(inthos).

[Risto the Great]

Great work SoM, very interesting.
I am still very much convinced that little research has been done in this area and we are yet to fully appreciate the historical significance of the entire Balkan region.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Plenty of research has been done, but little of that research has been consolidated to support such a view because of the long-harboured western fiction of a Slavic 'migration'. However, I will soon change that, so we can all have a clearer picture of the circumstances, developments and results of linguistic evolution that ultimately lead to the formation of the Macedonian tongue as we know it today.

[Bill77]

Here is something i always wandered how why and where.

The Letter or sound "a" in Macedonian at the end of anything associated with a Female.

Example of some Ancient names from the begining of this thread,

Cleopatra
Cassandra
Berenika
Adena
Batina
Colatina
Cursulavia
Dussona
Drigissa
Madena
etc etc.

If we look at some modern names we have the same thing happening,

Klementina
Magdalena
Elena
Mara
Maja
Katerina
etc etc.

On a side note, some of these names Greeks replace the "a" with "i" and would have it as,

Magdeleni
Eleni
Katerini
And good old Dora used to be known to me as Ms "Bakoyanis" now more commonly as "Bakoyani" minus the "s"
(mabe to sound more Italian. Like some say, Greeks invented sex, Italians corrected it by doing it with the opposite sex)


Macedonians also tend to name woman after their husbands but only adding this "a" at the end of it. (not to mention there surnames)

Example,

Icojca
Stefojca
Pecojca
Donejca
Vasilica
etc etc.


We even find female animals ending with "a"

such as,

Matorica
Kvachka
and so on.


Now i'm not sure if any other Race, or language does this. Like i said, its just something i always wandered and if there is some sort of explanation. I am not claiming anything because this is way out of my league.

But if it is a Macedonian thing which is possibly from Ancient times, i Wander if Greek cities names were Macedonian?

Such as,

Athina
Corinthia (this might not be a common way of saying it)
Solonika (Greeks call Thessaloniki)

Just to name a few.

[Homer MakeDonski]

HM,

The name Athanasios comes from the Hellenic word 'athanatos' (immortal), which ultimately derives from 'thanatos' (death). This name became widespread as a result of Christianity, which is probably where later Macedonian versions appear as Atanas, Tanase, Nase, etc.

Although palatalization can assist in explaining some likely cognates, I think there is another characteristic that features as the main factor in examples such as 'negotino'. Over time, Macedonian seems to have developed a feature of 'letter re-arrangement'. For example, from Greek to Macedonian, there is Antigonea -> Negotino, and Megalo -> Golemo, within Macedonian dialects there is Kade -> Deka. The definitive article suffix may also result from this feature, if examples such as the following are accepted: To dete -> Deteto.

I am very suspicious when for any name, Hellenic etymology is provided .
While ago,at some of our forums,when we were discussed origin of name of Bogdan , Bratot has pointed some links with explanations that
Bogdan originated from Theodore.
Precisely

old Russ. spelling of proper n. Feodor (Theodore).

http://books.google.pl/books?id=_dQP4nHgyVUC&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=Feodor+etymology&source=bl&ots=AMCAdTJczI&sig=J88hLp9DdCVNPxEtMyX1DndMaQI&hl=pl&ei=6xaJS7iJG8HZ-Qa5mr3kDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Od staroslovenski (makedonski):

Имя Богдан пришло из старославянского языка, где появилось от греческого имени; Богдан означает - данный Богом

Fediuk, form of Fedka, dim. of Fedor old Russ. spelling of proper n. Feodor (Theodore) .Patr. Fedorowicz .
Heinrich Walter Guggenheimer,Eva H. Guggenheimer"Jewish family names and their origins: an etymological dictionary " [Hoboken, N.J.] : Ktav Pub. House, 1992. page... 236

I doubt that
Origin of the word Bogdan according to letter changes researches is out of name of
Macedon
Македон
because ,
M-> B
K->G

MaiKe
BaiGe
BaGa
Bog


while for name of Theodorus

Theodorus =Teos-God + dorus~gift
My opinion is that Theόs has it's root at Deus ,and Deus or f. *Deusa has its possible origin in our word Dusa-Душа standing for Soul

http://my.opera.com/Homer%20MakeDonski/blog/theos-deus-over-possible-origin-and-meaning

At least this 'thanatos' - 'athanatos' should be checked out .

[Homer MakeDonski]

Nice one Bill77
well noted

[Soldier of Macedon]

Origin of the word Bogdan according to letter changes researches is out of name of
Macedon
Македон
because ,
M-> B
K->G

MaiKe
BaiGe
BaGa
Bog

Homer, Not sure about m -> b, but k -> g is not an impossible sound change, however, your assertion can only gain acceptance if you produce other examples of words which share the same features in the same manner. Do you have anything in parallel to corroborate?

My opinion is that Theόs has it's root at Deus ,and Deus or f. *Deusa has its possible origin in our word Dusa-Душа standing for Soul

Dusha <- Duh <- Deus? God and Soul are certainly well connected, it's an interesting suggestion.

At least this 'thanatos' - 'athanatos' should be checked out

Check it out, I assure you they mean what I have stated.

[George S.]

Does anyone know if there is a dictionary compiled on ancient macedonian words & where can one get it???
The word Crete kriet macedonian to hide,
cosmos cos- winding,most- bridge,
the word History is macedonian
Also well known professor Tasko Belcevski said that the english language has 2500 words with roots to the macedonian language!

[thessalo-niki]

Does anyone know if there is a dictionary compiled on ancient macedonian words & where can one get it???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_macedonian_language#Hesychius_Glossary

The word Crete kriet macedonian to hide,
cosmos cos- winding,most- bridge,
the word History is macedonian

Crete:http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none
Cosmos:http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none
History:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History#Etymology
_________________________________
Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Homer MakeDonski]

Homer, Not sure about m -> b, but k -> g is not an impossible sound change, however, your assertion can only gain acceptance if you produce other examples of words which share the same features in the same manner. Do you have anything in parallel to corroborate?

Over M-B changes in our mother tongue

Parallel in Macedonian is
Мрмори inpf.->Брбори,мрмориш->брбориш,мрморење->брборење ,
мрморковци->брборковци
Мекање n *Бекање –> Блекање -> Блеење ..’’..1
mrmori -non understandable lower speech or something like
brbori -non understandable louder speech or something like
Btw from here we have got
barbari- echoic of unintelligible speech of foreigners.( and question why used to be the foreigner one )


This M-B changes can be well noted at Greek language

Bananas = Μπανανασ
What will say
that
MP=B

Mp dissonant of M
M->Mp->*mB->B

Over
K-G-changes into Macedonian
VeliK den
VeliGden -Istar

or
kukuriKu
KukuriGu

Check it out, I assure you they mean what I have stated.

I will do, they can mean what ever they like
________________

Ref:
1-Тодор Димитровски,Благоја Корубин,Трајко Стаматоски“Речник на македонскиот јазик со српско-хрватски толкувања’’,Скопје 1961…..стр.424-425.
more at

http://homer-makedonski.blog.mk/2009/08/18/make-bog/

It is only at Macedonian ..sorry

[Soldier of Macedon]

Does anyone know if there is a dictionary compiled on ancient macedonian words & where can one get it???
The word Crete kriet macedonian to hide,
cosmos cos- winding,most- bridge,
the word History is macedonian
Also well known professor Tasko Belcevski said that the english language has 2500 words with roots to the macedonian language!

George, are you going to start doing this again? Don't make vast statements you can't corroborate, it brings down the hard work others do, and gives closet racists like Thessaloniki a false sense of security.

Parallel in Macedonian is
Мрмори inpf.->Брбори,мрмориш->брбориш,мрморење->брборење ,
мрморковци->брборковци
Мекање n *Бекање –> Блекање -> Блеење

HM, both of the words you produced in the m -> b example above are modern words. Can you show me a parallel with an ancient (m) -> modern (b), as per your initial example of mak -> bag ? Same thing with the k -> g example, you need to provide an ancient (k) -> modern (g) parallel.

I will do, they can mean what ever they like

I don't understand?

[Homer MakeDonski]

HM, both of the words you produced in the m -> b example above are modern words. Can you show me a parallel with an ancient (m) -> modern (b), as per your initial example of mak -> bag ? Same thing with the k -> g example, you need to provide an ancient (k) -> modern (g) parallel.

As for common m->b change I still have not got any ex. in our ancient times mother tongue.Thus because I have not found any recorded sources,but only guess suggestion.Example I am providing is from old so called Greeks dialects
So,here is an example of indirect comparability


Changes of μ, esp. in dialects:

2. into β,
as μεμβράς ,βεμβράς; βροτός, Aeol. μορτός ( v.άμβροτος fin.) and άβροτάξομεν for (from άμαρτάνω) ; μολєίν aor. of. βλώσκω ; κυβєρνήτης , Aeol. κυμєρνήτης ...1
______________
Ref.

1-Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott “Greek-English Lexicon” ,London,1896… стр.953

[Homer MakeDonski]

Guess suggestion I am reading here

нu како мо'жеть ся писати добрjь,гръчьскыми писмены. . Б~Ъ*,

My free translation
But,how well you could write words standing for God at... 2

My guesses are:
If we need new letter for writing word Bog ,than what letters were in previous using ?
Were they so called Greek?
If they were than writing of that word should be standing as *MΠoΓ something look like.
Why we do not have any info. about it ?

Ref:
___________
note : *-not well letter's fond
2-F.Буслаевымъ. М"Историческая христоматiя Церковно-Славянскаго и Древне-Русскаго языковъ"въ Университетской типографiи, 1861. Стлб.Из сочинения черноризца Храбра <((>О писменехь<))>. По изданiю
Калайдовича со списка 1348 г., въ Iоан. Екс. Болг. 1824 г.
425<->428.

[Homer MakeDonski]

change of k-g

I. κ is near akin to γ,χ.,differing only in its harder pronunciation; hence, the older Att. changed χνόος γναπτω ρευχω,into κνοος κναπτω : so in Ion. χιτων became κιθων ,βεχομαι βεκομαι,βατραχος βατρακος,χυτρα κυθρη,etc.; so γονυ (cf. προχνυ) is akin to our knee; cf.Lob.P.HRYN.173, 307. ….3
From here we can see that at word γναπτω κναπτω there is ancient k-g change records ,as well noted at previouses pages at the same lexicon ,given under the letter Γ
as ….
IV.also with κ, γναπτω κναπτω ....4
______________
Ref:
3- George Liddell and Robert Scott “Greek-English Lexicon” ,London,1896… page.750
4- George Liddell and Robert Scott “Greek-English Lexicon” ,London,1896… page.306