Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • julie
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 3869

    Ivanov is showing his true form. The loser will be the one that has negotiated, what an absolute tool, compromising our identity. They are showing their tactics, they all have hidden personal agendas and its apparent they stand to profit nicely. Why else would they continue to play a dangerous game in selling our identity
    "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

    Comment

    • Phoenix
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2008
      • 4671

      I think its prudent to keep our eyes on the ball and to read between the lines as much as possible but at the same time be weary of reading too much into statements that could be minefields of deliberate ambiguity...

      Comment

      • fyrOM
        Banned
        • Feb 2010
        • 2180

        What is Selling Out.

        Has anyone ever heard Ivanov or Gruevski say anything other than that any solution must protect the integrity of the Macedonia name identity and language. Is this an act of selling out or is this the prime fundamental issue. If the identity is lost you cannot have anything else…if there are no Macedonians then everything Macedonian is either not yours or cease to exist.

        Is it Not aiming at total reunification of Macedonia. Is this even possible.

        I hear you say But its Macedonia…we are Macedonians…it belongs to us…they took it by force…so give it back. If it were two kids and a teacher in a school. Could such a precedent be allowed to happen. Wouldn’t the Basque in France and Spain put up their hand or the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq or the Turkish clans in China to name a few. Who is going to force these countries to give up land…then why would they force Greece to. But what about Hong Kong.

        The issue of Hong Kong is not the same. Firstly the British and the Chinese had a binding agreement which no one in the west was prepared to go to war with China over breaking an agreement. No agreement or treaty exists regarding the occupied parts of Macedonia so how do we force Greece to give the land back…rely on their sense of decency or beg and say please a million times with a cherry on top or do we go to war or get someone else to go to war for us or do we pressure the un to set economic sanctions on Greece until they do. Is any of this realistic. Then what do you think Ivanov and Gruevski should do not to be a sell out.

        Stop negotiating.

        There are 3 kinds of money…4 if you count stealing.

        You can earn your money. A very honourable thing to do but what if you need a lot of money right away like if you were buying a house. You could save from your earnings and wait…and wait…or you could borrow it.

        Borrowed money is great in that it lets you do more right now than what you could do from your earnings but there are limits to how much you can borrow and how much others will let you borrow…not everyone is as privileged as Greece some of us actually have to pay back our borrowings.

        Somebody could give you money. Not everybody is your daddy. There are charitable people but usually they expect something in kind back so where are the ground rules becomes important but working out the ground rules needs a bit of savoir-faire or it could be a deal breaker. This opens the door for…lets say some things to happen…without Both parties feeling they are getting exactly the deal they were expecting. Time goes by and circumstances change…upper hands become not so upper and underhands start working and the beggar is begged.

        Madness in the method and method in the madness…a very European manner maybe.

        Comment

        • indigen
          Senior Member
          • May 2009
          • 1558

          Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
          I think its prudent to keep our eyes on the ball and to read between the lines as much as possible but at the same time be weary of reading too much into statements that could be minefields of deliberate ambiguity...
          There IS NO AMBIGUITY in the FACT that "our" ruling political elites in Mk are willing to "compromise" (sell out) DETRIMENTALLY to Macedonian national interests on the name issue, i.e. accept a NEW (amended) name for the state for international use. And this will not be the first nor the last stab in the back of Macedonian national interests, at least until there is nothing worthwhile left to sell out and compromise on.

          Comment

          • indigen
            Senior Member
            • May 2009
            • 1558

            Originally posted by OziMak View Post
            What is Selling Out.
            Can you be short and to the point in what you are trying to say/convey in your posts?

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              Does anyone have any emails addresses of ivanov & gruevski so that we can all tell them off ??
              Last edited by George S.; 01-17-2011, 07:20 AM. Reason: edit
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • fyrOM
                Banned
                • Feb 2010
                • 2180

                Originally posted by indigen View Post
                Can you be short and to the point in what you are trying to say/convey in your posts?
                Whether we like it or not I think the government have hitched their bets on this course of action

                1. Preserve the Macedonian name identity and language above all.

                2. Realising unity is not possible for now they have sacrificed pushing for unity to achieve point 1 above leaving the question of unity to a later time and from a different position but in the mean time holding out for minority right to make the wait bearable.

                3. Balance the time…ie scheduling of reforms…to keep the eu happy with progress yet not faster than getting courtiers to recognise Macedonia and giving Macedonian a greater bargaining power…God know what deals they have done to get recognition…one we know of is the Chinese computer factory in RoM.

                Comment

                • Phoenix
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 4671

                  Originally posted by indigen View Post
                  There IS NO AMBIGUITY in the FACT that "our" ruling political elites in Mk are willing to "compromise" (sell out) DETRIMENTALLY to Macedonian national interests on the name issue, i.e. accept a NEW (amended) name for the state for international use. And this will not be the first nor the last stab in the back of Macedonian national interests, at least until there is nothing worthwhile left to sell out and compromise on.
                  What's the answer Indigen...?

                  Comment

                  • indigen
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 1558

                    Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                    What's the answer Indigen...?
                    This topic is NOT about answers but about painting a CLEAR PICTURE of the STATE of the nation as it really is and not how some of us wish to IMAGINE it!

                    You might want to consider the following points that SOM presented in another topic:

                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    Who are we directing the message to? The world? Or our own politicians who are selling Macedonia out? What Macedonian Diaspora groups need to do is put pressure on the Macedonian government to conform with the goals of the Macedonian Cause, by cooperating with them while they continue to negotiate OUR IDENTITY we are making it easier for them to carry out their dirty work.

                    I am not advocating the cessation of trade and interaction between Macedonians in the Diaspora and those in Macedonia, but instead a form or forms of consistent and perpetual protest against the government's policies. Reject them and their advances, do not welcome them when they visit us in Diaspora countries, in fact, that is when we should protest. The Macedonian government can end this fiasco with the name today, right now, all they have to say is NO to the violation of our heritage, identity and integrity.

                    How many Macedonians are prepared to do that? And how many will still greet Gruevski or Ivanov like royalty when they visit the country in which they live? Our future can be ours to determine, but we need to take it into our hands. I eagerly await the next visit of any high-profile Macedonian politician to Australia - gone are the days of good reception, these people need to be held accountable for their actions, and if the Macedonians in Macedonia won't or can't do it, then the rest of the Macedonians across the world should. Afterall, the stupid decisions that some idiot politicians in Macedonia make, affect us all.
                    Cheers
                    Last edited by indigen; 01-17-2011, 07:53 AM.

                    Comment

                    • indigen
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 1558

                      Originally posted by OziMak View Post
                      Whether we like it or not I think the government have hitched their bets on this course of action

                      1. Preserve the Macedonian name identity and language above all.
                      This is NOT clear (nor does it seem grammatically correct) what you are trying to convey! And if it is what I think you are trying to say, then you are completely wrong when it comes to the name of the state for international use. KOGA i VRAPCITE znaat deka imeto na drzhavata e PRODADENO za megjunarodna upotreba (vo najmala raka), VIE BI TREBALO DA SE RAZBUDITE OD ZIMSKIOT SON SHTO VE ZAFATIL VAS!!!!

                      2. Realising unity is not possible for now they have sacrificed pushing for unity to achieve point 1 above leaving the question of unity to a later time and from a different position but in the mean time holding out for minority right to make the wait bearable.
                      What is this mumbo jumbo about? )

                      3. Balance the time…ie scheduling of reforms…to keep the eu happy with progress yet not faster than getting courtiers to recognise Macedonia and giving Macedonian a greater bargaining power…God know what deals they have done to get recognition…one we know of is the Chinese computer factory in RoM.
                      Being short and to the point is a BIG challenge for you, IMHO! :-)

                      Comment

                      • fyrOM
                        Banned
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 2180

                        Originally posted by indigen View Post
                        This is NOT clear (nor does it seem grammatically correct) what you are trying to convey! And if it is what I think you are trying to say, then you are completely wrong when it comes to the name of the state for international use. KOGA i VRAPCITE znaat deka imeto na drzhavata e PRODADENO za megjunarodna upotreba (vo najmala raka), VIE BI TREBALO DA SE RAZBUDITE OD ZIMSKIOT SON SHTO VE ZAFATIL VAS!!!!

                        I don’t teach English. Go find yourself an English teacher.

                        No wonder you have a problem with English if you speak to the birds for information. Maybe they told you the name was sold so that they could get some birdseeds from you but last time I looked the name being used was still the Republic of Macedonia the ethnic identity was still Macedonian and the language was still Macedonia. The birds jibbed you…are you sure they weren’t black birds on a red background…or was it a case of if you pay with birdseeds you get birdbrains.


                        What is this mumbo jumbo about? )

                        You really have a problem with English don’t you. Go find someone to translate for you. If they can understand it but cant explain it tell them to read the long version for an explanation.

                        Being short and to the point is a BIG challenge for you, IMHO! :-)

                        Some questions need more than a one word answer. If this is too long for you the sorry I don’t speak in grunts and one syllable words.
                        It will be an interesting year in 2011.

                        Comment

                        • Trident
                          Banned
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 10

                          Greeks are probably going to be your new best friend in a few years from now. What you guys dont get is that if we hated your country so much, why are we one of the top investors in Macedonia ? ROM is also considered a buffer zone from the Albanians. It is not in Greece's interest for you to be wiped off the map. I think this article is misleading.

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            Trident, Greece is right next to Albania. Check out your Atlas.

                            Greece finds it useful to invest in Macedonia. It can bribe politicians and get away with paying less to employees. It can avoid stringent EU legislation that applies in its own country. Why are you pretending to be naive Trident?
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • Christoff
                              Junior Member
                              • Jun 2009
                              • 7

                              The key phrase here is "in a European manner". In my view what he is actually pointing out is that the "european manner" is nothing but two faced, backstabbing, deceit and deception. They don't know and don't respect democratic principles or basic human rights so there can be no ironing out of differences under these precepts. In diplomatic terms he is calling a spade a spade. He is telling the EU can go to the devil! Love It!

                              Comment

                              • Bill77
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2009
                                • 4545

                                Originally posted by Trident View Post
                                Greeks are probably going to be your new best friend in a few years from now.
                                Greek soldiers sing they will wear our skins as clothing.

                                Greek diaspora move heaven and earth for governments to deny our identity.

                                Now we have Greek experts publicly speaking, hoping our country Ceases to Exist.

                                Imagine if we were your enemy, god forbid

                                What you guys dont get is that if we hated your country so much, why are we one of the top investors in Macedonia ?
                                Oh please, spare us your insinuations that Greeks are our saviors. Its their pockets they have interest in not that they want to do Macedonians favors. And the fact they would enjoy watching Macedonians being slaves.
                                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

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