Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

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  • Voltron
    Banned
    • Jan 2011
    • 1362

    #16
    [QUOTE]
    Originally posted by Commander Bond View Post
    Is the Greek language still being spoken in these colonized areas from the ancient era?
    Southern Italy and Sicily is an example


    Good view to apply the same thinking across the board but not a practical one. My view is to look at each race as a case by case study as various factors such as historical events (war, acts of God), occupied areas, etc determine each individual races outcome as far as longevity and continuity is concerned.
    In the Balkans everybody was pretty much in the same boat.
    What events do you think led to the complete phase out of the Greek people ? I know you mentioned Romans, Ottomans but specifically what events have you led to believe we were wiped out ?

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    • Voltron
      Banned
      • Jan 2011
      • 1362

      #17
      [QUOTE]
      Originally posted by Commander Bond View Post
      Languages spanned off Latin -true, why not Greek? Both were used during this era. Koine was used in the Roman senate as a language of prestige and that did not make the Romans Greek now did it?
      Correct

      Background of Philistines is undetermined. The theory of them being Greek is unlikely.
      It may sound far fetched, but it can be a possibliity.

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      • Voltron
        Banned
        • Jan 2011
        • 1362

        #18
        [QUOTE]
        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        As I said in my response to RtG. Although I was making reference more to 'old' Greece (Peloponnese and some regions further north). There are no boundaries on the topic, so we can look at all former Ottoman regions, that's no problem.
        Ok, although I will focus mostly on the Mainland since many times this comes into question. I will keep that in mind though. Just want to know the structure of how we will discuss this.

        How much do you think it was at the time of independence (in the territory that gained independence), in your honest opinion? Do you agree that whatever figure you give, it would have been less had not the Patriarchate and Porte shared close relations?
        Regarding Patriarchate and Porte, what relations do you mean ? Im not to familiar with religous matters.

        If it was the people keeping it alive you would have a number of languages today that are Greek-based. As it turns out, aside from some isolated cases, spoken Greek was generally Koine-based. So the Church played a significant role in the preservation of Greek, I am not sure how you could argue otherwise.
        Koine just standardised the language. Same thing with Macedonian or any other language. We have many dialects still in place. Romaika, Cypriot, Tsakonian, Calabrese, ect. Sure the Church played a role, but I dont see how they would hold a service if nobody undertood the language.


        That would be good, post up some excerpts, I would like to see what is written, the terms, the context, etc.
        I will.

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        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #19
          Originally posted by Voltron View Post
          Regarding Patriarchate and Porte, what relations do you mean ? Im not to familiar with religous matters.
          I will see if I can post something up tonight, all of the information is on the forums, just need to search for it.
          Koine just standardised the language. Same thing with Macedonian or any other language. We have many dialects still in place. Romaika, Cypriot, Tsakonian, Calabrese, ect.
          I will get back to you on this.
          Sure the Church played a role, but I dont see how they would hold a service if nobody undertood the language.
          Mate, you need to come to Australia and see Macedonian grkomani who don't speak a word of Greek attend Greek Church for weddings, christenings, etc. And this is in the day of information. Turn the clock back a hundred years ago and prior, when people were more ignorant, you will see that in many cases they simply had no choice. Particularly post-18th century, when the closure of Slavic-speaking churches in Macedonia, Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania came into effect.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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          • Commander Bond
            Junior Member
            • Nov 2008
            • 72

            #20
            [QUOTE=Voltron;95388]

            Southern Italy and Sicily is an example




            In the Balkans everybody was pretty much in the same boat.
            What events do you think led to the complete phase out of the Greek people ? I know you mentioned Romans, Ottomans but specifically what events have you led to believe we were wiped out ?
            Southern Italy and Sicily is a poor example as the Greek used there is a remnant of the Greek used for (once again) ecclesiastical purposes. The language was not used in that region during the ancient period, so your colonization theory goes out the window and the reason is that this language reached Southern Italy and Sicily during the Byzantine era, meaning that it was the language used by the church and the people that went there were not Greeks. You are aware that the Byzantine Empire consisted of many various peoples (not Greeks - in my opinion)? I specified highly probable factors in my previous post in relation as to why I believe they were wiped out. I personally also think (at first) that most ancient Greeks did not take to Christianity with open arms and within time the pagan Greek numbers dropped to zero and the Greek Christians (giving up their pagan ways) intermarried with other Christian races and therefore over time were absorbed and ultimately stopped being Greek. Hence, ending the continuity of the Ancient Greeks.

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            • Voltron
              Banned
              • Jan 2011
              • 1362

              #21
              Originally posted by Commander Bond View Post

              Southern Italy and Sicily is a poor example as the Greek used there is a remnant of the Greek used for (once again) ecclesiastical purposes. The language was not used in that region during the ancient period, so your colonization theory goes out the window and the reason is that this language reached Southern Italy and Sicily during the Byzantine era, meaning that it was the language used by the church and the people that went there were not Greeks. You are aware that the Byzantine Empire consisted of many various peoples (not Greeks - in my opinion)? I specified highly probable factors in my previous post in relation as to why I believe they were wiped out. I personally also think (at first) that most ancient Greeks did not take to Christianity with open arms and within time the pagan Greek numbers dropped to zero and the Greek Christians (giving up their pagan ways) intermarried with other Christian races and therefore over time were absorbed and ultimately stopped being Greek. Hence, ending the continuity of the Ancient Greeks.
              Wiki says the following:
              However, this form of Greek has never experienced an extensive growth period during its history, and it has only ever been used in basic day-to-day communications, without ever playing a significant role in the fields of administration, literature, or ecclesiastical matters.

              I also dont believe that the church had anything to do with that area. If they did we would all be speaking the exact same dialect. All languages go through a natural evolution. I will post some references during the Byzantine Empire regarding Greeks.

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              • Commander Bond
                Junior Member
                • Nov 2008
                • 72

                #22
                Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                Wiki says the following:
                However, this form of Greek has never experienced an extensive growth period during its history, and it has only ever been used in basic day-to-day communications, without ever playing a significant role in the fields of administration, literature, or ecclesiastical matters.

                I also dont believe that the church had anything to do with that area. If they did we would all be speaking the exact same dialect. All languages go through a natural evolution. I will post some references during the Byzantine Empire regarding Greeks.
                In my opinion Wiki is not a credible source but I respect your rite to take it as gospel.

                You do not have to believe that the church had anything to do in that area however it is a well known fact that the Byzantine empire had ruled parts of Southern Italy until 1071. You may wish to research this and also another fact that Byzantines in Italy have been seen largely in terms of their contribution to the revival of Greek studies during the Renaissance.

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                • Voltron
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2011
                  • 1362

                  #23
                  Chronicle of Monemvasia

                  This is quite a controversial document. Some say its inaccurate, others abide by it. I happen to think its somewhere down the middle and is a good reference. Again, this is my opinon on the matter. I dont speak for Greeks in general.

                  The translation is not perfect. I will post source to this text later.

                  "In another particular invasion, enslavement (the Avars) over Thessaly and Greece and the old continent and Attica and Euboea. Stormed the Peloponnese and captured in war and driving away and destroying the noble (or indigenous) the Greek nation, they lived in it. Those of (the Greeks) managed to escape from the bloody hands, scattered here and there. And while the city of Patras permissible to bring his country in Reggio Calabria, and the Argives to the island called Orovi (: Ervil across Tolo), and Corinthians moved to the island called Aegina. Then Laconia and the fatherland land left. And although (the Laconia) on the island Sicily sailed, and still there at a place called tied Demenites Lakedaimonites called instead, and saving own dialect of Laconia. And others (of Laconia) finding a difficult place near the shore of the sea, built a fortress city that called Monemvasia, because he had only one entrance to move forward on this and lived in this city along with their bishop. And the shepherds and farmers (Laconia) lived there in the rough adjacent sites, which until recently called Tzakonies. Thus, the Avars conquered the Peloponnese and inhabited since at this lasted for 218 years, neither the king nor Roman on another subject, namely the year 6096 the construction of the world (587 AD) which was the sixth year of reign of Mauritius by the year 6313 (805 AD), which was the fourth year of the reign of Nikephoros old son had the Staurakios. And only the rough and rugged eastern part of the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Malea and was free from the Slavic nation and in this place sends general of the Peloponnese by the Roman king. One of these generals, guided by the Little Armenia, the faction of so-called hard, fought, won and eventually wiped out the Slavic nation and restored the ancient inhabitants is brought to their homes. Learning that the aforementioned king playground Nikiforos and filling and made sure there cities renovated many churches demolished the barbarians to build and these barbarians do Christians. And this know that the people of Patras lived as metics ordered and restored the ancient territories along with their shepherd named Athanasius. And he Patras, formerly archdiocese, rights metropolis. And reconstruction of the city such profound and holy churches of God, to abash patriarchy, the holy father. The city of Sparta and, fundamentally, and this build and installed in such a mixed population from Kafireas, Thrace, Armenians and others coming from different places and cities, and made it again this diocese and established to be subject to the metropolis of Patras, where he dedicated and two other dioceses, Methoni and Koroni. "
                  Last edited by Voltron; 04-08-2011, 06:21 AM.

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                  • Voltron
                    Banned
                    • Jan 2011
                    • 1362

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Commander Bond View Post
                    In my opinion Wiki is not a credible source but I respect your rite to take it as gospel.

                    You do not have to believe that the church had anything to do in that area however it is a well known fact that the Byzantine empire had ruled parts of Southern Italy until 1071. You may wish to research this and also another fact that Byzantines in Italy have been seen largely in terms of their contribution to the revival of Greek studies during the Renaissance.
                    I dont take it as Gospel, but lets be honest even Macedonians use it sometimes as a source. Its not that bad.

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                    • Commander Bond
                      Junior Member
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 72

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                      I dont take it as Gospel, but lets be honest even Macedonians use it sometimes as a source. Its not that bad.
                      I'll be honest, I don't use it for any historical references. The only section in it that I find holds truth is the "recent deaths" section on the main page.

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                      • Voltron
                        Banned
                        • Jan 2011
                        • 1362

                        #26
                        If you dont mind me using Peter Charanis as a source. I feel it relates to the Chronicle of Monemvasia I posted previously.

                        Ethnic Changes in the Byzantine Empire in the Seventh Century
                        Author(s): Peter Charanis



                        Slavs then not only settled in Greece, but did so in considerable numbers. Though the date of this settlement has been a
                        subject of dispute,the evidence points to the period which extended from just before the beginning of the reign of Maurice to the early years of the reign of Heraclius. That more Slavs may have come later in no way alters this fundamental conclusion. The settlement
                        of Slavs in Greece does not, however, mean that the Greek population was completely obliterated. Despite the Slavic flood, the Greeks held their own in eastern Peloponnesus, in central Greece, including Attica (a region which is known to have been a theme as early as 695), and, of course, in the islands. A number of strongholds are known to have remained in the hands of the Byzantines. In the the Peloponnesus there was Monemvasia in the south and Corinth in north. In central Greece there was Athens, where, if we may believe a hagiographical text, a Cappadocian conversed with philosophers and rhetoricians in the eighth century; And farther north there was Thessalonica. These strongholds, even Thessalonica, were not great urban establishments in the seventh century, nor for that matter in the eighth, but they were to serve as centers for the pacification, absorption, and eventual Hellenization of the Slavs in Greece. Thessalonica in particular may be called the savior of Greece from the Slavs, for had she succumbed to their repeated attacks in the sixth and seventh centuries, the chances are that Greece would have been completely inundated by them. In the end, the Slavs in Greece proper were absorbed and disappeared from history. Fallmerayer's statement that there is no real Hellenic blood in the vein is of the modern Greeks cannot therefore be accepted

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                        • Daskalot
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 4345

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                          If you dont mind me using Peter Charanis as a source. I feel it relates to the Chronicle of Monemvasia I posted previously.

                          Ethnic Changes in the Byzantine Empire in the Seventh Century
                          Author(s): Peter Charanis



                          Slavs then not only settled in Greece, but did so in considerable numbers. Though the date of this settlement has been a
                          subject of dispute,the evidence points to the period which extended from just before the beginning of the reign of Maurice to the early years of the reign of Heraclius. That more Slavs may have come later in no way alters this fundamental conclusion. The settlement
                          of Slavs in Greece does not, however, mean that the Greek population was completely obliterated. Despite the Slavic flood, the Greeks held their own in eastern Peloponnesus, in central Greece, including Attica (a region which is known to have been a theme as early as 695), and, of course, in the islands. A number of strongholds are known to have remained in the hands of the Byzantines. In the the Peloponnesus there was Monemvasia in the south and Corinth in north. In central Greece there was Athens, where, if we may believe a hagiographical text, a Cappadocian conversed with philosophers and rhetoricians in the eighth century; And farther north there was Thessalonica. These strongholds, even Thessalonica, were not great urban establishments in the seventh century, nor for that matter in the eighth, but they were to serve as centers for the pacification, absorption, and eventual Hellenization of the Slavs in Greece. Thessalonica in particular may be called the savior of Greece from the Slavs, for had she succumbed to their repeated attacks in the sixth and seventh centuries, the chances are that Greece would have been completely inundated by them. In the end, the Slavs in Greece proper were absorbed and disappeared from history. Fallmerayer's statement that there is no real Hellenic blood in the vein is of the modern Greeks cannot therefore be accepted
                          To be noted, the Slavs were a precourser to the later Albanians who settled a desolated wasteland in the Morea and Attica.
                          Macedonian Truth Organisation

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                          • Voltron
                            Banned
                            • Jan 2011
                            • 1362

                            #28
                            We will get to that Daskalot Dont rush.

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                            • Daskalot
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 4345

                              #29
                              Ok, I will tread carefully hence forth......

                              Please read this thread The Arvanites of Central Greece, the Slavs and the modern Greeks!
                              Source: Bintliff, J.L. (2003).
                              The ethnoarchaeology of a 'passive' ethnicity: The Arvanites of Central Greece. In K.S. Brown & Y. Hamilakis (Eds.), The Usable Past. Greek Metahistories, pp. 129-144.
                              Macedonian Truth Organisation

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                              • Voltron
                                Banned
                                • Jan 2011
                                • 1362

                                #30
                                After the Slavs, its the Vlachs then the Albanians. Like I said earlier,in order of significance and in regards to mainland Greece.

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