Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Tomche Makedonche
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2011
    • 1123

    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...ise-05-28-2018

    Macedonia Says 'Framework' for ‘Name’ Solution is Reached

    Macedonia and Greece have agreed a 'framework' for a compromise solution to their bilateral name dispute – but it needs more work, Macedonia's Foreign Minister said on a visit to Brussels.

    Macedonian Foreign Minister, Nikola Dimitrov, said after meeting his Greek counterpart, Nikos Kotzias, on Sunday in Brussels, that the two sides had reached a framework for a solution to the dispute over Macedonia's name – but it needed more work.

    “We have a framework that needs more work and at the moment legal teams from both ministries are working on it,” Dimitrov told Macedonia’s state MIA news agency on Monday.

    Not disclosing any specifics of the framework, Dimitrov said that in light of a possible breakthrough, an “important” meeting was planned between the two prime ministers, Macedonia’s Zoran Zaev and Greece’s Alexis Tsipras, for the middle of this week, “where I hope that some important things will be decided, from the options that are at the table”.

    On Monday and Tuesday in Brussels, Dimitrov and Kotzias attend the EU Foreign Affairs Council where, at the margins, they were expected to resume their bilateral talks.

    The last round of UN-sponsored talks on Thursday and Friday in New York, held in the presence of the UN mediator, Matthew Nimetz, ended without a breakthrough.

    In the absence of much official information, media reports have speculated that the adjectives New, Upper, Northern or Vardarska - stemming from Macedonia’s biggest river, the Vardar – before the word Macedonia, had been discussed.

    The two sides have also yet to agree on the span of use of any possible compromise name.

    But in her remarks on Monday, at the start of the Foreign Affairs Council, the EU’s Foreign Affairs Commissioner, Federica Mogherini, said the progress made at the Athens-Skopje talks was very encouraging.

    “We are all very encouraged by the progress made especially on the negotiations between Skopje and Athens on the name issue. We will all work to support and accompany, hopefully, a positive outcome of these important negotiations,” Mogherini said.

    On Monday morning, Mogherini had a working breakfast with Macedonia’s Dimitrov and with the foreign ministers of EU member states.

    During the breakfast, EU Enlargement Commissioner Johannes Hahn tweeted his “Thanks to @NikosKotzias and @Dimitrov_Nikola for their constructive, hard work!” adding that “Everyone expressed wholehearted support to the negotiations”.

    Hahn continued by saying that there was a “consensus in the room that a solution to the name issue will be a game changer for the next steps in the EU accession process” of Macedonia.

    The "name" dispute centres on Greece's insistence that use of the word Macedonia implies a territorial claim to the northern Greek province of the same name.

    Athens insists that a new name must be found that makes a clear distinction between the Greek province and the country.

    As a result of the unresolved dispute, Greece blocked Macedonia’s NATO entry in 2008 and it also blocked the start of Macedonia’s EU accession talks, despite several positive annual reports from the European Commission on the country’s progress.

    Macedonia hopes that by solving the dispute soon, it could get invitation to join NATO and green light for start of its EU accession talks as soon as this year.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN1IT1CY

    Greece, Macedonia edge closer towards resolving name dispute

    ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece and Macedonia have edged closer in their efforts to resolve a decades-old dispute over the former Yugoslav republic’s name, with their foreign ministers drafting documents which could pave the way for a settlement.

    Greece has long opposed Macedonia’s right to call itself that, saying it amounts to a territorial claim on a northern Greek region of the same name. The dispute has blocked Macedonia’s bid to join NATO and the European Union.

    Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias said he and his Macedonian counterpart Nikola Dimitrov had concluded their talks on the issue and that the two prime ministers would take it up after some legal details had been addressed.

    “The documents that have been drafted at a ministerial level will be delivered to the two prime ministers who will discuss between themselves and reach a final deal,” said Kotzias after a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels. He gave no details on what had been agreed in his talks with Dimitrov.

    Greece and Macedonia are racing to reach a deal before an EU summit in late June, which may open the way for Macedonia’s eventual membership.

    After meeting his Macedonian counterpart Zoran Zaev in Sofia earlier this month, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said the two countries have covered a great part of the distance and could meet again next month if there was enough progress

    NOTE: Racial slurs in the below article from the Greek media have been edited and noted in Italic

    http://greece.greekreporter.com/2018...ime-ministers/

    Macedonia Name Deal Now in the Hands of the Two Prime Ministers

    The Macedonian name agreement has been passed from the hands of foreign ministers to the prime ministers level, said Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias on Monday, following talks with Macedonian counterpart Nikola Dimitrov.

    The two officials met in Brussels with the intermediation of United Nations representative Matthew Nimetz. Kotzias told reporters, after the meeting, that technical and legal issues will be discussed over the next few days, according to the Athens News Agency (ANA).

    After the technical level talks, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and his Macedonian counterpart will make the final negotiations on the naming issue.

    “As soon as the technical and legal issues have been clarified and the texts are prepared at the level of foreign ministers, they will be given to the two prime ministers, who will discuss with each other and reach a final agreement,” Kotzias said.

    Earlier, Dimitrov, in statements to the MIA agency, said the foreign ministers of the two countries had reached a compromise.

    “We had a productive meeting and we have a compromise framework text to be drafted today,” Dimitrov told MIA.

    Maximos Mansion suggests “patience”

    “The two foreign ministers have made significant progress, but the negotiations are not over — they are at their most crucial turning point,” a government official knowledgeable of the Macedonian name negotiations told ANA.

    “Some people are hurrying to say hop, even before Macedonia jumps the ditch. Patience and coolness until the June Summit,” the Greek official said.
    “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

    Comment

    • Tomche Makedonche
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2011
      • 1123

      Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
      Ha! And you are these people? So, this is how Macedonia got its' name.
      Just noticed this, even though this garbage typically expected from you is usually not worth the effort, I'm feeling rather generous today, so to answer your question:

      Yes, we are these people, and we are the reason why Macedonia continued to retain its name instead of vanishing into obscurity under the ominous titles of "Northern Greece" or "Southern Serbia", etc.

      In fact, if it wasn't for the Macedonians = Us, and our continued effort over the injustice that occurred and has continued to transpire over the last 100 years, the average citizen of Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece today would hardly know what the fuck Macedonia is at all. That was the intention and policy of Belgrade, Sofia and Athens. Unfortunately for you all (or I guess I should say fortunately for you now ay), Macedonians know who we are, we know what Macedonia is, and we had no intention of going along with that shit - your foreign governments plans - whatsoever.

      I suppose now we should say you're welcome huh? ... “Greek"?
      Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 05-28-2018, 09:06 PM.
      “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

      Comment

      • Karposh
        Member
        • Aug 2015
        • 863

        Thanks for that Tomche and I agree with your response. I actually missed that comment too from our esteemed Greek troll here. I had to go back a couple of pages to see what he's on about.

        Comment

        • Pelagonija
          Member
          • Mar 2017
          • 533

          Zaev and co to put name change to an referendum.

          In case of a final deal on the 'name' dispute with Greece, Macedonia plans to put it to a referendum in September or October, Prime Minister Zoran Zaev said on Wednesday.


          Заев рече дека се уште не е договорено конкретно име. Временската рамка за решавање на спорот делумно ја потврди и најави оти разговорот со Ципрас треба да се случи до петок.

          Comment

          • Phoenix
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2008
            • 4671

            Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post
            Zaev and co to put name change to an referendum.

            In case of a final deal on the 'name' dispute with Greece, Macedonia plans to put it to a referendum in September or October, Prime Minister Zoran Zaev said on Wednesday.


            https://www.slobodnaevropa.mk/a/29259120.html
            How does all of this work in Zaev's version of La La Land...how can parliament ratify a potential agreement sometime before the July NATO summit and then put it to a referendum sometime in September or October...

            I understand that ANYTHING is possible in Macedonia, the more ridiculous the more possible it is...if Zaev can somehow get the new name through parliament, then the referendum result is a given, regardless of what the true intentions of the people are...the result will be 100% rigged in favour of a change, it can't go any other way...

            Comment

            • Niko777
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2010
              • 1895

              Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
              How does all of this work in Zaev's version of La La Land...how can parliament ratify a potential agreement sometime before the July NATO summit and then put it to a referendum sometime in September or October...
              I bet the referendum will include another question alongside the name change, possibly entry into NATO.

              Comment

              • Karposh
                Member
                • Aug 2015
                • 863

                Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
                I bet the referendum will include another question alongside the name change, possibly entry into NATO.
                Perhaps it will go something like this:

                Dali ste za promena na imeto Republika Makedonija so vistinska shansa za vlez vo NATO i EU i, se razbira, za pobogata zemja so mnogu pari vo vashite dgebovi?

                Comment

                • Risto the Great
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 15658

                  There is absolutely no doubt that a referendum will be framed as one which sells the betterment of the nation in exchange for the indignity of losing the Macedonian name.
                  Risto the Great
                  MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                  "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                  Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                  Comment

                  • Karposh
                    Member
                    • Aug 2015
                    • 863

                    On the bright side, if a name change helps them get into the EU then at least people won't have to flee Macedonia via the backdoor, as Bulgarians. They can do so as proud Gornomakedonci.

                    Comment

                    • Tomche Makedonche
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2011
                      • 1123

                      Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post
                      Zaev and co to put name change to an referendum.

                      http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...eal-05-30-2018
                      Have copied the text of the above article below:

                      Macedonia PM Pledges Referendum on Name Deal

                      In case of a final deal on the 'name' dispute with Greece, Macedonia plans to put it to a referendum in September or October, Prime Minister Zoran Zaev said on Wednesday

                      Talks between Macedonia and Greece on Macedonia's name are in a “delicate” and “final” phase, Macedonian Prime Minister Zoran Zaev said on Wednesday, adding that if a final deal is reached soon, the country plans a referendum in autumn.

                      “We all agree that a referendum will be held in September or October when we expect the citizens to give us directions for our future moves,” Zaev said.

                      “I am glad that Greece understood the subtleness of this serious process … and the citizens have to be asked. I hope that the citizens will be responsible towards Macedonia’s future,” the Prime Minister added.

                      Before the referendum is held, Zaev said the expected agreement would be put to parliament for ratification in order not to waste any time and allow Greece to lift its blockade in NATO so that Macedonia can be invited to join the alliance at the July NATO summit.

                      Greece has been blocking Macedonia's NATO invitation, as well as the start of its EU acession talks over the unresolved issue of the country's name, to which Greece objects.

                      On Monday, Greece and Macedonia said that they had reached a framework for a possible compromise in the decades-long dispute.

                      Zaev said he expected to have an important telephone call soon with his Greek counterpart, Alexis Tsipras, over a final deal.

                      “Today, tomorrow or on Friday at the latest, I will speak with PM Tsipras, after which I expect a breakthrough in the talks,” Zaev said.

                      Zaev did not reveal any details about the possible compromise name or names that are currently on the table, insisting that he will disclose this as soon as a final settlement is reached. He added that, in any case, Macedonia’s identity would be protected.
                      “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                      Comment

                      • Tomche Makedonche
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 1123

                        Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                        How does all of this work in Zaev's version of La La Land...how can parliament ratify a potential agreement sometime before the July NATO summit and then put it to a referendum sometime in September or October...

                        I understand that ANYTHING is possible in Macedonia, the more ridiculous the more possible it is...if Zaev can somehow get the new name through parliament, then the referendum result is a given, regardless of what the true intentions of the people are...the result will be 100% rigged in favour of a change, it can't go any other way...
                        When you look at the tactics and manner that this particular government got into power, I think its pretty obvious that frivolous things like rules, laws, democracy, fairness, etc, etc, are pretty much obscure concepts that are irrelevant once in power and only require the odd lip service for the purposes of public perception

                        They are just simply following the kind of system and leadership all previous governments have since the states independence.

                        The name will be changed, the language will be changed, our identity will be changed, the referendum result will support the governments agenda, and the people will gain nothing in return.

                        That society and their way of life will continue as it always has
                        Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 05-30-2018, 08:56 PM.
                        “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                          The name will be changed, the language will be changed, our identity will be changed, the referendum result will support the governments agenda, and the people will gain nothing in return.

                          That society and their way of life will continue as it always has
                          But they still know they are Macedonians and will give you a reassuring wink when it's all over.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Tomche Makedonche
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2011
                            • 1123

                            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                            But they still know they are Macedonians and will give you a reassuring wink when it's all over.
                            To be honest, I don’t think they really care anymore, so long as it doesn’t personally cause them any issues in anyway, it wont really matter what people call them, identity has become irrelevant, their intellects are now above such petty concepts...
                            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8532

                              Really, all there is to say to Macedonians over there is cestito ime.

                              What this means for Macedonians in the diaspora is still unclear. It is likely that the final battles will return here. In Australia I suspect the Greek community will try to rename us - same as they attempted to back in the 90s. We managed to defeat that through the courts, many thanks to the AMHRC (Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee vs. State of Victoria, (HREOC, 8 September 2000)). Its difficult to say how that will play out this time around.

                              Then there is the inevitable divide within our diaspora communities. Those that will accept the new order (because, quite frankly, they're a bunch of vrti kapi) and those that will remain Macedonians. I foresee potential conflict played out, which very well could lead to property disputes over community and sporting clubs, associations, assets etc. This could have very profound and expensive ramifications for us here.

                              Though, I hope that I'm wrong.
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

                              • Tomche Makedonche
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2011
                                • 1123

                                Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                                Really, all there is to say to Macedonians over there is cestito ime.

                                What this means for Macedonians in the diaspora is still unclear. It is likely that the final battles will return here. In Australia I suspect the Greek community will try to rename us - same as they attempted to back in the 90s. We managed to defeat that through the courts, many thanks to the AMHRC (Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee vs. State of Victoria, (HREOC, 8 September 2000)). Its difficult to say how that will play out this time around.

                                Then there is the inevitable divide within our diaspora communities. Those that will accept the new order (because, quite frankly, they're a bunch of vrti kapi) and those that will remain Macedonians. I foresee potential conflict played out, which very well could lead to property disputes over community and sporting clubs, associations, assets etc. This could have very profound and expensive ramifications for us here.

                                Though, I hope that I'm wrong.
                                It will undoubtedly become a shit fight for us, particularly against government bodies, and likely further divide or potentially even destroy our communities.

                                We are likely to see three factions develop, those that give up on their identity (assimilate), those that conform to the new identity and those who retain their true identity. This division will make the fight against government bodies even harder, possibly even untenable when we need to compete not only against our enimies, the new Republic but also our own fractured community itself
                                Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 05-30-2018, 09:42 PM.
                                “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                                Comment

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