Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

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  • MHRMI
    Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 132

    MHRMI's Twitter account suspended for exposing hate mail from a Greek-Australian

    MHRMI's Twitter account was suspended because we exposed anti-Macedonian hate mail from a Greek-Australian

    Here is the original email from John Kasimiotis ([email protected]):
    "Yes you thief stop stealing Greek names and Greek history the letter f u walk out on in the rio olympics should not be f for former Yugoslav republic but f for fuck of you Bulgarian egg head ha ha ha"

    Mr. Kasimiotis has since joined Twitter, posted happy, friendly things about saving animals (although we can agree on that), so the first thing you see when you search his name is not his anti-Macedonian rant. Of course, he has blocked MHRMI from "viewing his tweets", although that's not hard to get around.

    MHRMI had to delete the tweet in order to reactivate our Twitter account. Of course, we filed a complaint with Twitter and reposted it. See attached.
    Attached Files

    Comment

    • Dejan
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 589

      We are not only Macedonia, we are also Macedonian - ethnically speaking. There is no other people on earth who claim to be ethnically Macedonian. You guys claim to be Greeks from Macedonia
      You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

      A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

      Comment

      • vicsinad
        Senior Member
        • May 2011
        • 2337

        I think it's more likely they suspended the account because you gave out someone's full name and e-mail address associated with was likely a private communication. That's some muddy waters on the Internet that a lot social media and other sites try to stay out of.

        Comment

        • Spirit
          Member
          • May 2015
          • 154

          Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
          It’s not a misconception. A bilateral problem usually ends when the two parts make an agreement. Greece can’t name another country (unless it first conquers it). Greece’s opinion matters only if you depend on it, so there’s always the alternative of following a path “without Greece”. Greece’s only ambition is that you’re not named Macedonia. There are no territorial claims or other hidden ambitions.



          Greece obviously never denied Macedonia’s existence. We deny the existence of a Macedonian nation and language and more precisely we deny that this nation/language should use the name of Macedonia or is related to Ancient Macedonia. Other than that, I do admit that Bulgarians, Slavs, Turks and even Serbs and others have been a part of Macedonian History and they do have logical territorial claims. They have either lived in it as people or have controlled as states, kingdoms and empires smaller or bigger parts of this territory for shorter or longer intervals (whole centuries).



          Macedonia has certainly always been known as such, this is something we agree at. What we don’t accept is that YOU are Macedonia. According to us WE are Macedonia, in geographical and historical terms.




          Greece DID have a problem with the name of (Yugoslavian) Republic of Macedonia and even bigger problems with the officially declared intentions of Yugoslavia to annex Greek Macedonia. The relations were indeed normalized after the 50s and the name issue was tolerated mostly under the argument that (Yugoslavian) Macedonia was an internal affair, a name of a district of another country.

          By the way, Greece was never an Ottoman “colony”. Yet, while you’re just being humorous, you could indeed use measure for measure and say you don’t recognize Greece with its name. I’m not kidding. It would be the same logic (Greece’s logic).



          Confusion or correctness are existing issues, but they’re only small part of the problem, a problem we see as one of appropriation of name and history of Macedonia.



          From my point of view, that should be Greece. Greece should make a step, the obvious step of withdrawal that is already foreseen in the Interim Accord. “This Interim Accord shall remain in force until superseded by a definitive agreement, provided that after seven years [i.e. in 2002] either Party may withdraw from this Interim Accord by a written notice, which shall take effect 12 months after its delivery to the other Party”.
          1.The fact that you state "Bulgarians, Turks, Slavs and Serbs" should get you banned. We are Macedonians, it's simple as that. You have no right to tell us how we should identify ourselves.
          2. Macedonia was never a district of Yugoslavia, it was a republic.
          3. Greece identifies itself as the birthplace of democracy and rightly so, yet modern Greek history has no concept of democracy or really practiced it.
          4. It's not a bilateral problem, as stated above it's a unilateral problem, we have no problem with our identity therefore there is nothing to resolve.
          Last edited by Spirit; 10-05-2016, 03:14 AM.

          Comment

          • Amphipolis
            Banned
            • Aug 2014
            • 1328

            Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
            The sole word BIlateral problem implies it is a problem of two nations.
            That is however wrong since Macedonia (nor the rest of the world for that matter) doesn't have any problem at all, it is Greece that has a problem.
            Subsequently, Macedonia and Greece don't have a bilateral problem, you can say that Greece has an unilateral problem and it's using it's position in the world to bully and hold Macedonia hostage because of it.
            This was extensively discussed recently in another thread so I’ll leave it. I certainly agree that Brazil doesn’t give a shit about the dispute and it’s only the closest neighbors that have an opinion and an indirect interest.

            Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
            Since by definition you are also inclusive in "we", the above statements can and should get you banned. Other than that, Greece too has been ruled for longer or shorter periods in history by other nations. By that logic, does that mean these nations have the right to lay claims to Greece's territory today?
            Well, they already do, but that wasn’t my point. My point was that (for instance, from a Turkish point of view) Macedonia IS a part of Turkish History and Turks ARE a part in the History of Macedonia.

            Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
            Just because most of the territory of the ancient Macedonian kingdom is in Greece TODAY (it wasn't before 1912), it doesn't give you the copyright and trademark of Macedonia per se. According to us WE are Macedonia, it is written in our constitution. Try reading it.
            This IS partly such a dispute, but I don’t think there are international copyright/trademark laws for countries. Yet, the arguments are similar.

            Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
            From our point of view, any negotiations and the continuation of them are pointless and futile.
            No government of our country can change our constitutional name without facing the wrath of the people, and the people will never accept any other name.
            We have always been and will be known as Macedonians, whether Greece likes it or not.
            And we're here to stay. The sooner you and your people come at peace with this, the better.
            Well, I’m afraid “WE” the members of the forum agree at something. We don’t like compromises. I’m not sure about our governments or our people.

            Originally posted by Spirit View Post
            1. The fact that you state "Bulgarians, Turks, Slavs and Serbs" should get you banned. We are Macedonians, it's simple as that. You have no right to tell us how we should identify ourselves.
            2. Macedonia was never a district of Yugoslavia, it was a republic.
            3. Greece identifies itself as the birthplace of democracy and rightly so, yet modern Greek history has no concept of democracy or really practiced it.
            4. It's not a bilateral problem, as stated above it's a unilateral problem, we have no problem with our identity therefore there is nothing to resolve.
            1 You’re certainly in Macedonia, though there is an issue on who were your historical ancestors (Alexander the Great? Samuel? Both? Neither?) and why they are claimed by others.

            2. I was ready to say “Give me a break” but you’re actually right. Yet, what was that supposed to mean regarding the Greek-Yugoslav diplomatic relations in the 1950s?

            3. Greece has the lengthiest tradition of modern democracy in the Balkans (though there wasn’t much competition).

            4. A bilateral dispute is a dispute between two parts. For instance, Albania raises the Cham Issue. Greece says “we don’t see any problem”. It’s the same thing.


            ===
            Last edited by Amphipolis; 10-05-2016, 04:56 AM.

            Comment

            • Spirit
              Member
              • May 2015
              • 154

              Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
              This was extensively discussed recently in another thread so I’ll leave it. I certainly agree that Brazil doesn’t give a shit about the dispute and it’s only the closest neighbors that have an opinion and an indirect interest.



              Well, they already do, but that wasn’t my point. My point was that (for instance, from a Turkish point of view) Macedonia IS a part of Turkish History and Turks ARE a part in the History of Macedonia.



              This IS partly such a dispute, but I don’t think there are international copyright/trademark laws for countries. Yet, the arguments are similar.



              Well, I’m afraid “WE” the members of the forum agree at something. We don’t like compromises. I’m not sure about our governments or our people.



              1 You’re certainly in Macedonia, though there is an issue on who were your historical ancestors (Alexander the Great? Samuel? Both? Neither?)

              2. I was ready to say “Give me a break” but you’re actually right. Yet, what was that supposed to mean regarding the Greek-Yugoslav diplomatic relations in the 1950s?

              3. Greece has the lengthiest tradition of modern democracy in the Balkans (though there wasn’t much competition).

              4. A bilateral dispute is a dispute between two parts. For instance, Albania raises the Cham Issue. Greece says “we don’t see any problem”. It’s the same thing.
              "Democracy consists of four key elements: (a) A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; (b) The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; (c) Protection of the human rights of all citizens, and (d) A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens."
              Let's look at points b,c and d and how Greece has applied these elements of democracy to its Macedonian minority, oh wait a minute, actually it seems that it doesn't. So don't go preaching to me about how Greece has the lengthiest tradition of modern democracy in the Balkans. It certainly has not been practised or put into effect.
              Once again it is a unilateral problem, we have no problem with our identity. See how that works.
              I am not trying to get into an argument or treat you with disrespect, it seems to me that you're an intelligent person, a few of my closest are friends are Greek and I am a godfather to my friends daughter. The thing is that my Greek friends treat with me with respect and acknowledge that I am Macedonian without a prefix. We have intelligent conversations and we acknowledge that both our cultures have a shared history and are very intertwined.
              Last edited by Spirit; 10-05-2016, 04:54 AM.

              Comment

              • Karposh
                Member
                • Aug 2015
                • 863

                Well said Amphipolis. Some very good points and arguments there. The people of Vardarska Banovina have no right to call themselves Macedonians. Now all you have to do is convince the rest of those pesky Slavophone Greeks/Bulgarophones currently living in your Macedonia...You know, the ones in the geographical and historical Macedonia of course. I imagine you'll have more trouble convincing them however. They are already convinced that they are Macedonians too and, unfortunately they reside in the historic piece and not the pretend pieces from the north so it ain't gonna be easy. I suggest some tried and proven methods from the time of Metaxas perhaps.

                Comment

                • vicsinad
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2011
                  • 2337

                  Originally posted by Spirit View Post
                  The thing is that my Greek friends treat with me with respect and acknowledge that I am Macedonian without a prefix. We have intelligent conversations and we acknowledge that both our cultures have a shared history and are very intertwined.
                  This is precisely the problem. "Treat people how you want to be treated."

                  Comment

                  • vicsinad
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2011
                    • 2337

                    Oh, the high hopes that the English had for Greece and democracy when they were freeing her from the Turks. Notice how this author hoped that free press in Greece would allow Greece to communicate with her neighbors...the Macedonians.

                    "The English party, whose interest it is that Greece should become a great and powerful state, with a free constitution, and in which capacity she might be employed as a most powerful weapon against Russian aggrandizement. Should Greece become a great state, of course it will in some degree assist in preventing Russia from getting dominion in the Mediterranean ; and should it become a liberal state, with a free press, its papers, spread over its own territory, will communicate with its neighbours, the Macedonians, thence to the Bulgarians, thence to the Wallachians and Moldavians, principalities dependent on and bordering upon the Russian states."

                    From the book Wanderings in Greece by George Cochrane, written in 1837, pg. 198.

                    Comment

                    • Amphipolis
                      Banned
                      • Aug 2014
                      • 1328

                      Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                      Well said Amphipolis. Some very good points and arguments there. The people of Vardarska Banovina have no right to call themselves Macedonians. Now all you have to do is convince the rest of those pesky Slavophone Greeks/Bulgarophones currently living in your Macedonia...You know, the ones in the geographical and historical Macedonia of course. I imagine you'll have more trouble convincing them however. They are already convinced that they are Macedonians too and, unfortunately they reside in the historic piece and not the pretend pieces from the north so it ain't gonna be easy.
                      I can't see any difference. There are some differences in longer distances, but not among people suddenly divided by a border line.

                      Comment

                      • Amphipolis
                        Banned
                        • Aug 2014
                        • 1328

                        Originally posted by Spirit View Post
                        "Democracy consists of four key elements: (a) A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; (b) The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; (c) Protection of the human rights of all citizens, and (d) A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens."
                        Let's look at points b,c and d and how Greece has applied these elements of democracy to its Macedonian minority, oh wait a minute, actually it seems that it doesn't. So don't go preaching to me about how Greece has the lengthiest tradition of modern democracy in the Balkans. It certainly has not been practised or put into effect.
                        The minority has a small legal political party and participates in political life, often collaborating with bigger parties.

                        Comment

                        • vicsinad
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 2337

                          Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                          We deny the existence of a Macedonian nation and language and more precisely we deny that this nation/language should use the name of Macedonia
                          Oh, come on. It wasn't that hard for you recent ancestors to refer to the Macedonians' language as Macedonian. Take George Demetrios and his book, "When I Was A Boy in Greece" from 1913:


                          "It was difficult for a boy to understand the reason of all this hate and bloodshed. I could speak Turkish, and the Macedonian dialect, besides my own Greek tongue, and as a curious boy in the holidays I had been here and there, wishing to know more of the world round me and the people who lived in other villages than mine."

                          "Yet in Southern Macedonia there was at first no enmity between the purely Greek villages and those speaking the Macedonian dialect."

                          "Being neither Turkish nor Greek, we called them Bulgarian, but their language is not Bulgarian, but the Macedonian dialect, and I found lovable people among them, honest, hospitable, and kind."

                          It's really sad how you can't recognize a Macedonian language called MACEDONIAN but your ancestors did. It just shows how insecure you are in your own Greek identity.

                          Comment

                          • DraganOfStip
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2011
                            • 1253

                            Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                            This was extensively discussed recently in another thread so I’ll leave it. I certainly agree that Brazil doesn’t give a shit about the dispute and it’s only the closest neighbors that have an opinion and an indirect interest.
                            That doesn't change the fact that Greece is the only country in the world (besides maybe Cyprus,which is understandable from known reasons) out of approximately 200 that has a problem with Macedonia's name.
                            Therefore, the "problem" is not multilateral,nor bilateral,but unilateral,since it's a problem of just one side.
                            Or in democratic terms - you're far outvoted.
                            Well, they already do, but that wasn’t my point. My point was that (for instance, from a Turkish point of view) Macedonia IS a part of Turkish History and Turks ARE a part in the History of Macedonia
                            No no no,don't twist and turn the way it suits you.
                            No one argues that almost all countries in the world have ruled another at certain points in history and that part of your post isn't disputable,you know this very well.
                            It's the part where you say someone has justified territorial claims towards us because of it is the problem.
                            By your logic, Persia (Iran) would be justified to lay claims to some of your territories because at a certain point in time it ruled them?
                            Or Italy as the successor of the Roman empire?
                            Or the Turks for that matter?
                            This IS partly such a dispute, but I don’t think there are international copyright/trademark laws for countries. Yet, the arguments are similar.
                            Copyright and trademark were just a metaphor,you know this too.
                            Don't just reply for the sake of replying.
                            All this "sweet talk" isn't getting you anywhere,you showed your true face in the highlighted text.
                            I'd be very careful to use such rhetoric once again here if I were you.
                            ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                            ― George Orwell

                            Comment

                            • Karposh
                              Member
                              • Aug 2015
                              • 863

                              Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                              I can't see any difference. There are some differences in longer distances, but not among people suddenly divided by a border line.
                              True dat. There is indeed no difference between those from north of that random, arbitrary line in the ground called a “national” border and those south of it. You know yourself, that line is not natural, national or historical. It is a demarcation line for land won by the spear by one of three nationalist and fascist nineteenth century governments. That line could just as easily have ended up well south or well north of the current position.

                              Be that as it may, I’m glad to see you’re coming around regarding my people. I couldn’t have said it better. The sudden border line makes no difference to the self awareness of the artificially divided people who called themselves Macedonians before that line went in and continue to do so long after it. Nothing has changed. We were Macedonians before that line and we are Macedonians now…on both sides of the border.
                              I just wanted to really stress that because there is sometimes confusion out there amongst your people with regard to whether the Macedonians from RoM are one and the same with the Macedonians from Greece. Thank you for clarifying that misconception. Coming from a Greek, that means a lot.

                              I like to think I’m a level headed person who doesn’t go off like a frog in a sock over trivial things but I’ve reached a point in my life where I’m simply sick and tired of being insulted time after time by Greeks who don’t respect my identity and will refer to me as anything but Macedonian. Why is it that Macedonians are always the ones that have to cop it sweet and bow their heads in submission whenever we are rudely referred to as Slavs, Skopjans, Yugoslavs or Bulgarians? Fuck that. It has to end now and I urge every Macedonian to pull anyone up and correct them whenever they refer to us as anything other than Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Stojacanec
                                Member
                                • Dec 2009
                                • 809

                                Amphipolis what history do you give the refugees of the 1920s that were transplanted into modern greece? they didn't recongnise the greek language and had to be taught. where would you say their greek history starts? please explain.

                                Too bad that your deluded rant how Macedonians don't exist other than under a modern greek idiom still can't fool many.

                                Comment

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