Greece, History, Truth

[Voltron]

The Macedonians claim only ethnic Macedonians as ethnic Macedonians, whereas the Greeks claim ethnic Greeks, ethnic Macedonians, ethnic Vlachs, ethnic Albanians, etc as ethnic Greeks - and then produce 98% or 97% figures for 'Greeks' in Greece. Why doesn't Greece allow a question relating to ethno-linguistic identity on their census'?

I saw a last name of Vlahov in an article TM posted, I believe that is TM's friend. Now I can safely assume that has Vlach connotations correct ? If so, does that make him less of an ethnic Macedonian in comparison to TM or you ? No, not likely. We do not claim "ethnic" Albanians or "ethnic" Vlachs. In regards to Vlachs they are a large group of people and its a general term. As I mentioned before, Greeks were also "latinised" during the Roman rule. Ethnic Macedonians or Grkoman as you call them to me are the best example of being a Macedonian. They have the "indeginous" background and they speak the same language their ancestors of antiquity spoke. Please do not take offense to this statement, it is an opinion and in no way am I trying to disrespect the Macedonian language that exists. I also understand there was a forced Hellenization process. I regret that happened but I cant change that. I also trust I can express my view here and if I am wrong pls call me on it. I will listen.

That's very convenient. There is little recorded about what the ancient Macedonians said about themselves, we have to rely on a logical interpretation of the sources, collectively.

Is there a thead we can discuss this ? Or is this thread ok for this subject ?

It's not the same thing. Even though certain Macedonians of the 19th century promoted the use of socio-political terms like 'Bulgarian', they did not identify their origins with the Turkic Bulgars who established Bulgaria in Moesia. Intead, in their writings you will find reference to figures such as Alexander and the ancient Macedonians (Pulevski, Shapkarev, Misirkov, Karev), Justinian the Great (Miladinov, Hadji-Konstantinov), Basil I - the Macedonian (Hadji Konstantinov), etc. On the other hand, Greek intellectuals of the 19th century, still in transition from the Roman identity to a Hellenic one, generally viewed the ancient Macedonians in the same way that the ancient Hellenes did - a non-Greek people that lived north of the Peneus river.

Turks in Anatolia also have oral traditions regarding ATG and ancient Macedonians. Since the Macedonian names you cited actually lived in the region where Ancient Macedonians resided and in most cases came across their ruins. So that line of thinking doesnt prove much. I dont quite understand the "transition" you mention. If you are referring to nationalism then thats a different story and could be well applied to Macedonia of today.

Isn't it interesting how the previous Greek that was parroting that line, a member called Agamoi Thytai, has conveniently disappeared a couple of days before you appeared? Perhaps you are all chick-fed from the same hand? Here is the full text of that quote from Borza, as explained to your cohort perviously: There is no reason to deny the Macedonians’ own tradition about their early kings and the migration of the Makedones. We have already suggested that a branch of those highlanders, the Argeadae, may have migrated out of the Haliacmon basin into the piedmont of northern Pieria.
THe Haliacmon basin and Pieria are both in Macedonia, that is the migration to which Borza is making reference to in that quote. You need to brush up on your reading.

Borza position is well known and I think you are accusing the wrong person. I have yet to even converse with Agamoi Thytai, only other Greek I have posted to was John.

No, that is not an appropriate starting point, for a number of reasons. Furthermore, there are other threads where this topic can be discussed, this thread was created for a completely separate topic

Then it would come down to debating on heresay ? Would it not ?Would you direct me to a thread then where we can exchange views ? If of course you are not tired of this. Im sure you have done this to death as I have.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Cite my username when you are quoting me, show some courtesy.

I saw a last name of Vlahov in an article TM posted, I believe that is TM's friend. Now I can safely assume that has Vlach connotations correct ?

The term 'Vlah' was also applied to sheppards, irrespective of their origins. Unless you know the individual (which you don't), you can't safely assume anything. Your argument would be more convincing if his surname consisted of an actual word from the Vlach language, which, like the Macedonian language, did not have the same influence in formal matters that Greek had.

If so, does that make him less of an ethnic Macedonian in comparison to TM or you ? No, not likely.

Even if the surname came from a distant ancestor, you are talking about one (assumingly paternal) Vlach individual in the line of many Macedonians, before and after. That example cannot be compared to whole ethnic groups which reside in Greece that aren't ethnic Greeks.

We do not claim "ethnic" Albanians or "ethnic" Vlachs.

Don't be silly, of course you do. The funny thing is, on paper you consider them as 'ethnic Greeks', yet when asked in person no Greek would consider somebody speaking a non-Greek language at home or among family and friends as 'ethnic Greeks'. It really is comedic.

In regards to Vlachs they are a large group of people and its a general term. As I mentioned before, Greeks were also "latinised" during the Roman rule.

A Vlach ethnicity does exists, I know you have difficulty with the concept of recognition, but that is not my problem, or the problem of ethnic Vlachs.

Ethnic Macedonians or Grkoman as you call them to me are the best example of being a Macedonian. They have the "indeginous" background and they speak the same language their ancestors of antiquity spoke.

Not all Macedonians in Greece are grkomani, but they are all from the same Macedonian ethnic group. The ancient Macedonians had to be taught to speak Greek, just like today's Macedonians in Greece, as it was not their native language. The comparison is akin to thinking that the 'best example' of a Londoner today would be one speaking Vulgar Latin.

I also understand there was a forced Hellenization process. I regret that happened but I cant change that. I also trust I can express my view here and if I am wrong pls call me on it. I will listen.

No problem.

Is there a thead we can discuss this ? Or is this thread ok for this subject ?

At the top of each page there is a search function, use it to find the appropriate thread, there are a number of them.

Turks in Anatolia also have oral traditions regarding ATG and ancient Macedonians.

So what? Which Turks claimed descent from the ancient Macedonians?

Since the Macedonian names you cited actually lived in the region where Ancient Macedonians resided and in most cases came across their ruins. So that line of thinking doesnt prove much.

That is a poor rebuttal, you think people like Georgija Pulevski and Nikola Karev needed to walk past ancient Macedonian ruins to form an opinion? You clearly don't know what you're talking about, and seem to be prolonging this line of questioning, just for the sake of it.

I dont quite understand the "transition" you mention. If you are referring to nationalism then thats a different story and could be well applied to Macedonia of today.

Transition from identifying with a Roman identity to a Hellenic one.

Borza position is well known and I think you are accusing the wrong person. I have yet to even converse with Agamoi Thytai, only other Greek I have posted to was John.

His position is indeed well known, but obviously not by yourself and people that you apparently don't know.

Would you direct me to a thread then where we can exchange views ?

Search function, explained above.

[Pelister]

Isn't it amazing? When Voltron speaks about the Macedonians they miraculously lose their indigeneity. The Macedonians form a distinctive and unique ethnic group. They have always called themselves simply Macedonians. The New Greeks that invaded the territory, or were strategically planted there in the millions have no natural connection to the word 'Macedonia'. They are at the end of the day imposters, foriegners and alien to the region. The idea that any part of Macedonia was "Greek" is complete bullshit.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Even if the surname came from a distant ancestor, you are talking about one (assumingly paternal) Vlach individual in the line of many Macedonians, before and after. That example cannot be compared to whole ethnic groups which reside in Greece that aren't ethnic Greeks.

What you said does not differ at all in what I have stated. How many ethnic groups reside in ROM today. Are people any less Macedonian because of it ? No they are not.

Don't be silly, of course you do. The funny thing is, on paper you consider them as 'ethnic Greeks', yet when asked in person no Greek would consider somebody speaking a non-Greek language at home or among family and friends as 'ethnic Greeks'. It really is comedic.

And I suppose you know what they speak at home ?

A Vlach ethnicity does exists, I know you have difficulty with the concept of recognition, but that is not my problem, or the problem of ethnic Vlachs.

Where did I say a Vlach "ethnicity " does not exist in its own right? Should I even bother posting anymore if you are not going to give the common courtesy to read what I said ? You use the exact same analogy with Bulgarians, actually you take it a step further and deny a Bulgarian heritage altogether by emphasizing the term Bulgars in almost each post.

Not all Macedonians in Greece are grkomani, but they are all from the same Macedonian ethnic group. The ancient Macedonians had to be taught to speak Greek, just like today's Macedonians in Greece, as it was not their native language. The comparison is akin to thinking that the 'best example' of a Londoner today would be one speaking Vulgar Latin.

Never said they were all Grkomani. Nobody knows what their native language was if in fact it was even a language. There simply isnt enough proof.

So what? Which Turks claimed descent from the ancient Macedonians?

We claim descent from Ancient Greece, is that in itself enough for you ?

That is a poor rebuttal, you think people like Georgija Pulevski and Nikola Karev needed to walk past ancient Macedonian ruins to form an opinion? You clearly don't know what you're talking about, and seem to be prolonging this line of questioning, just for the sake of it.

What about Kottas, is his view any lesser than how Karev or Pulevski viewed themselves ?

Transition from identifying with a Roman identity to a Hellenic one.

Pls elaborate or point me to the right direction. Should I start at page 1 ?

His position is indeed well known, but obviously not by yourself and people that you apparently don't know.

His position is in fact sometimes ambigous. He does not completly confirm or deny the fact " IMO " that they were in fact a NorthWest Greek Tribe.

I trust we can be civil when we have exchanges. Not to say that up to now we have not. Take Care.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Voltron, I have no time to respond to your rabble now, but from skimming through it briefly I can see that your relevance here is quickly descending into the same, repetitive clownery often displayed by other Greeks like yourself.

If you've come to keep things going round in circles here, you may find yourself spat out of the vortex. Leka nokj transformer.

[Voltron]

Oh I see, conform to your POV or be casted out. So you want Greeks that agree with everything you say. I did not know that was a requirement to be posting here. You should have listed that on your Rules and Regulations.

[Ottoman]

Turks in Anatolia also have oral traditions regarding ATG and ancient Macedonians.

DNA results have proven other things mate, we share things with the Hittities not ancient Macedonians.

Like SOM said which Turks claim a connection with the ancient Macedonians? I dont know one person.

[Stojacanec]

Ethnic Macedonians or Grkoman as you call them to me are the best example of being a Macedonian. They have the "indeginous" background and they speak the same language their ancestors of antiquity spoke.

Voltron,

My father explains that his grandfather (which places the time around late 1800s) went to a school in Solun.

He explains that he learned the Macedonian language as we know it today, he also added that he was taught the Greek language.

Macedonian was his primary language.

If find it funny that you elude to the fact that today the a true macedonian speaks Greek.

Now the forced hellenization of Aegean Macedonia has really turned that region for what it is today on its head.

Probably more than half of (your true Macedonians) have direct ancestral links to Turkey. true or false?

You are trying to portray the people of that region (today) as having a direct link to their ancestors of ancient macedonia via the greek language. That’s nothing but a rhetoric act by a modern Greek or Grkoman.

Our parents stories (and there are many) shows enough recent evidence that Macedonia was never one and only Greek.

[Risto the Great]

Ethnic Macedonians or Grkoman as you call them to me are the best example of being a Macedonian. They have the "indeginous" background and they speak the same language their ancestors of antiquity spoke.

Voltron, you are sounding quite mentally spastic.
Can you prove the modern Greek language is the same as the language of the ancient Macedonians?
Can you prove the modern Greek language is the same as the ancient Hellenic languages?
Can you prove ANY kind of Greek derived language was spoken by the majority of Greece's citizens at the time of creation of your State?

Grkomani are not the best examples of Macedonians. They are Macedonians who choose to be Greeks nowadays. They are your best example of "Greeks" if you like.

[Pelister]

Voltron,
You are trying to portray the people of that region (today) as having a direct link to their ancestors of ancient macedonia via the greek language. That’s nothing but a rhetoric act by a modern Greek or Grkoman.

I like what you wrote here Stojacanec. I think that Voltron will be producing a strong official 'Athens' line here which has been proven to be highly irrational, sometimes entirely incoherent and always anachronistic, not to mention contrived. The identity of the New Greek is so unstable, I guess they take the view that if they are aggressive enough it might destract the rest of the world from seeing what a sham people they really are.

[Stojacanec]

Exactly Pelister.

The official Athens line is nothing but Greek propaganda. There is enough evidence today that proves Macedonia never was Greek.

Their agenda is politically motivated. Today's politics should not get in the way of historical facts.

[Voltron]

DNA results have proven other things mate, we share things with the Hittities not ancient Macedonians.

DNA ? Ottoman, I really thought you were above this line of thinking. DNA does not prove ethnicity. The most you can get out of it is seeing where your ancestors were over 5000 yrs ago. Its a moneymaker where they exploit people to try to make themselves feel better about themselves and where they come from. Not to mention they never tell you where they have obtained the original DNA from. Today its mostly used in forensic cases.

[Voltron]

Voltron, you are sounding quite mentally spastic.
Can you prove the modern Greek language is the same as the language of the ancient Macedonians?
Can you prove the modern Greek language is the same as the ancient Hellenic languages?
Can you prove ANY kind of Greek derived language was spoken by the majority of Greece's citizens at the time of creation of your State?

Grkomani are not the best examples of Macedonians. They are Macedonians who choose to be Greeks nowadays. They are your best example of "Greeks" if you like.

Risto, the first time I saw the Pella tablet was when somebody posted it in a forum trying to say it was not related to Greek. Must of been some adolescent that didnt know any better. Needless to say I was able to read it with little difficulty. I am not using the Pella tablet as "proof", I am stating that the language hasnt changed that much. You have to know Greek to have an objective opinion of the language. Its like me trying to have an opinion on Macedonian language today. It aint going to happen.

There are few surviving words of the Ancient Macedonians. Hardly something to prove. It will remain this way until clearer information is uncovered. Regarding, your last question I dont know what type of proof you would like. Im in this forum to learn more about Macedonia without flaming people.

[Ottoman]

DNA ? Ottoman, I really thought you were above this line of thinking. DNA does not prove ethnicity. The most you can get out of it is seeing where your ancestors were over 5000 yrs ago. Its a moneymaker where they exploit people to try to make themselves feel better about themselves and where they come from. Not to mention they never tell you where they have obtained the original DNA from. Today its mostly used in forensic cases.

No mate DNA is one of the best methods to prove things.

I can give you a few reasons why Turks cannot have a connection with ancient Macedonians.

Turks and ancient Macedonians dont share a single thing to look for a connection, not even 1 word in the language.

History and archeology accepts the connection of nations with minimum 6 words found similar in both languages.

The Sumerian language for example shares over 1500 words with the Turkish language, many scholars are questioning this and there are many researches on this case, but I never ever heard something from the Turks connecting themselves with ancient Macedonoans.

[Voltron]

You are trying to portray the people of that region (today) as having a direct link to their ancestors of ancient macedonia via the greek language. That’s nothing but a rhetoric act by a modern Greek or Grkoman.

Stojacanec,

I was eluding that Macedonians in antiquity were a Greek speaking people for whatever reasons that happened being native, learned or whatever. I also was trying to understand if the Slavic incursion in the balkans did not take place, what language would be spoken today. Again, I did not mean it offensivly, me being Greek I know some people will see it that way and its probaby the last time I will even mention it.

Probably more than half of (your true Macedonians) have direct ancestral links to Turkey. true or false?

Dont know percentatage but Yes, there are many Greeks today that have ancestry in Turkey. Seems like Turkey really came out of this conflict unscathed at the expense of both of us. Maybe you should ask Greeks with ancestry in Turkey if they can go back, would they. You can also be restored to yours. Since I see this beautiful relationship building with the Turks, id like to see how they would consider this idea.

Today's politics should not get in the way of historical facts.

Agreed.

In any case, I appreciate your reply and how you came across.