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View Poll Results: Feel Macedonia is culturally Mediterranean or Slavic?
Mediterranean 2 66.67%
Slavic 1 33.33%
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:53 PM   #21
Risto the Great
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Very interesting perspectives.

I have to ask both of you, from my point of view, coming from a background where I don't even know many people from Egejska, in what ways do you think Greeks didn't ultimately accomplish their goals in relation to the Macedonians within their borders?

I am of the view that Macedonians in Greece already are good Greeks. The numbers of Macedonians their who identify as such seems to be going down. They haven't really done anything in decades to counter the Greek states anti Macedonian platform.

Some Macedonians may be resentful but it at least appears that a majority have bought into the Greekness of Macedonians.

Is there more to it than the naked eye? Am I missing something? As I said I don't have any intimate examples to go off of.
They are Greeks nowadays in the same way as I am Australian. They have adopted the culture and perhaps more fully express themselves as Greek speakers. This is a logical outcome.

But as soon as any tension between the racial groups occurs, everyone knows precisely what they were or are.

Each successive generation knows less about it. But there you go.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:01 PM   #22
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Very interesting perspectives.

I have to ask both of you, from my point of view, coming from a background where I don't even know many people from Egejska, in what ways do you think Greeks didn't ultimately accomplish their goals in relation to the Macedonians within their borders?

I am of the view that Macedonians in Greece already are good Greeks. The numbers of Macedonians their who identify as such seems to be going down. They haven't really done anything in decades to counter the Greek states anti Macedonian platform.

Some Macedonians may be resentful but it at least appears that a majority have bought into the Greekness of Macedonians.

Is there more to it than the naked eye? Am I missing something? As I said I don't have any intimate examples to go off of.
There are a lot of Macedonians from Egej in my town and basically they fall into two categories. They're either grkomani or they are absolutely Macedonian and hate Greece with a passion. I've never met one that is indifferent. But that is just my personal experience in Australia. I don't have connections in Egej. My comments were broader in the sense that Greece will never subdue or assimilate all Macedonians in its borders by tyring to force them. It will never really have a rapprochement with Macedonia no matter how many agreements they sign. Greeks and Macedonians around the world will never collaborate on anything without justice. We'll be in perpetual opposition to each other, regardless of where we are, for as long as Greece continues on this imperialist path.

But if in 1991 it just said, you know what, the cold war is over, we're in the EU/NATO, our borders are secure, let the Macedonians be, lets just pull together as friends and neighbours, they wouldn't have had to waste time, energy and money on Greekifying everything and trying to convince the rest of the world that everything is Greek. And they've never managed to do this, nor can they ever really achieve it. There's limits to propaganda and that limit is intelligence.

They protest too much - and its because they know they have an identity problem and a big ethnic mix. They try to delude themselves and suppress it by making everything, absolutely everything, Greek...until they slip up and accidentally mention they have a baba, or gjyshe, or büyükanne or bunică or whatever.

I think RtG is right - they have a "Greek" civic identity, but they pretend that they are all ethnic Greeks, until they're not.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:04 PM   #23
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Nushevski,

Thanks for sharing, you are definitely in the right place. I don't think you will find another place so full of knowledge and perspective. It may be a little rough around the edges, but if you can look past that I'm sure you will find the answers you are looking for.

I apologize for being a little short with you upfront. Your post didn't make a lot of sense to me without the context you later provided. That's not to say that the question makes sense, but I do understand why you asked it.

One thing you have to learn first and foremost is how most people who are anti Macedonian typically intentionally conflate things such as religion, geography, language, etc to muddy the water and redefine what it means to be Macedonian. That is the main reason your question was quickly met with contempt. It is the type of logic that is used by people who want to prove that Macedonians are not their own ethnic group but a regional mishmash of all types of people who fit into other groups like Slavs, Greeks, Bulgarians, etc.

So the first thing you have to do is understand that being Macedonian supersedes all else. Our culture our identity is Macedonian period. Now if you are trying to find similarities in parts of Macedonian culture to parts of other cultures I'm sure you will find many form many different cultures. This is the case with any ethnic group anywhere in the world. Macedonians don't exist in a vacuum. Over the centuries Macedonians have come in contact with hundreds of different groups of people, all who have taken things and left things behind.

Our Food has hints of Mediterranean, Eastern European, Turkish, and some uniquely Macedonian elements.

Our language is of Slavic root.

Our alphabet has a Greek base but is created by and distinctly Macedonian.

Our genetics are predominantly from the Balkan region and near east with small amounts of northern European.

Our music is distinctly Macedonian, rooted in all the oppression and struggle over the centuries.

Mind you I'm doing this for your benefit but if you were to ask me I would classify all the above as just Macedonian. There is no need to try and justify it and appropriate it to anything else.

What would you say is French culturally? If you want to pick apart their culture you will find Germanic influence, Latin influence, British, Gothic, Spanish, etc etc. Half of the thinks modern Greeks pride themselves on can easily be appropriated to being Turkish.

Does this give some clarity? Instead of trying to generalize it, why don't you get more in touch with your roots and culture and experience it for yourself, then maybe you will better understand why my first answer and why the right answer to your question is just simply MACEDONIAN.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:14 PM   #24
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I don't belive you would be erroneous by stating this, one only needs to look at the example of Yugoslavia for evidence to support this kind of view. Once Macedonians were “allowed” to be who they were, most eventually became accepting of the federation, with many becoming strong advocates of it.
I think it goes way beyond just Yugoslavia...

Macedonian's have embraced the countries of the 'new world'...Australia, USA, Canada etc...the real magic of nation building can only be fully realised when you treat people with respect and allow them to be who they are.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:21 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
They are Greeks nowadays in the same way as I am Australian. They have adopted the culture and perhaps more fully express themselves as Greek speakers. This is a logical outcome.

But as soon as any tension between the racial groups occurs, everyone knows precisely what they were or are.

Each successive generation knows less about it. But there you go.
I've always wanted to know more about the Egej perspective. I was always told second hand stories growing up but no one in our extended family has any roots there as far as I know.

I took my first and only trip to Egej a couple years ago, and I thought I encountered many people who are Macedonian, but none seemed to want to show it. Now I was an outsider, is it different when they are within their own circles? Do they try and maintain a connection to their roots at least in private?

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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
. It will never really have a rapprochement with Macedonia no matter how many agreements they sign. Greeks and Macedonians around the world will never collaborate on anything without justice. We'll be in perpetual opposition to each other, regardless of where we are, for as long as Greece continues on this imperialist path.
That is a very good point that never gets mentioned. Their is this faux liberalism that dominates European politics. Its more similar to fascism but with a lot of fake smiles.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:36 PM   #26
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is it different when they are within their own circles? Do they try and maintain a connection to their roots at least in private?
It is definitely different in private.
But the connection is fading rapidly now.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:11 PM   #27
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It is definitely different in private.
But the connection is fading rapidly now.
sigh. I guess if Macedonians within their own country are fading away, what's left for those in a place like Greece.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:34 PM   #28
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I'll admit the majority of my posts here are usually stupid but i'm just trying to learn & be apart of this community since I don't have really anyone to talk to about Macedonia & whats going on.
Hi Nushevski, you posts are not stupid. There is no need to beat yourself up.

If I may suggest something - I'm not sure how's your knowledge of Macedonian, but if you'd like to learn and connect to your roots it would be a good place to start/continue. There are some online resources, and learning/listening/speaking the language may allow you to connect or understand better the Macedonian culture and people. There are many videos on youtube; just one example - there are lots of Macedonian folk tales uploaded (Македонски народни приказни).
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:32 AM   #29
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But if in 1991 it just said, you know what, the cold war is over, we're in the EU/NATO, our borders are secure, let the Macedonians be, lets just pull together as friends and neighbours, they wouldn't have had to waste time, energy and money on Greekifying everything and trying to convince the rest of the world that everything is Greek. And they've never managed to do this, nor can they ever really achieve it. There's limits to propaganda and that limit is intelligence.
I think the Greeks considered the ship was already too far gone when it became evident that Yugoslavia was about to collapse. They say it usually takes just over three generations to assimilate a people into a new entity, the Greek state was encountering that pivotal point following 70 years of enforcing its brutal 19th century policy of ethnic cleansing, forceful assimilation and indoctrination to the national propaganda. Although there was a cultural shift happening globally (well more in westernised countries) regarding the acceptance of multiculturalism to freely exist within a “unicultural” nation’s society on the basis of respecting the fundamentals of basic human rights (instead of treating it as the threat it traditionally was viewed), Greece ultimately considered themselves to be on the final leg of their mission, and to change course at that point would be to unravel all the previous work done for the last 70 years.

Without any form of international pressure baring down on them, and taking into account the perceived threat that they could suffer the same fate as Yugoslavia at that time based on the reality of their multicultural make up, not to mention the real effects the living memory of the civil war still holds within their populace, the Greeks thought it best to just follow their plan to its end since they believed they were basically on the home stretch.

I believe this was a negative and backward way to approach the matter and I think they interpreted the “zeitgeist” incorrectly by continuing and dramatically ramping up the enforced policy of Hellenisation (which is essentially a form of Naturalisation, an ideology that was developed and promoted by the Romans, and not something which the ancient Greeks actually believed in) whilst also trying to promote this ridiculous perception of pure ethnic homogeneity (which funny enough is in direct contradiction with the idea of naturalisation).

All they managed to do with this policy is polarise our nations to a point where we remain in a state of perpetual opposition (as you said). Macedonians exist, and we are global now. Continuing on with a policy which tries to negate or erase our existence is futile and will only serve to strengthen our resolve and diminish any chances of reconciliation.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:22 AM   #30
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Nushevski,

Thanks for sharing, you are definitely in the right place. I don't think you will find another place so full of knowledge and perspective. It may be a little rough around the edges, but if you can look past that I'm sure you will find the answers you are looking for.

I apologize for being a little short with you upfront. Your post didn't make a lot of sense to me without the context you later provided. That's not to say that the question makes sense, but I do understand why you asked it.

Does this give some clarity? Instead of trying to generalize it, why don't you get more in touch with your roots and culture and experience it for yourself, then maybe you will better understand why my first answer and why the right answer to your question is just simply MACEDONIAN.
Yes it was really clear, thanks. I kinda felt like this was a re-introduction for me here and I'm glad to still be a part of this forum. I understand how my first post without context really didn't make sense, I was hesitant to write the follow-up but here we are now.

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Hi Nushevski, you posts are not stupid. There is no need to beat yourself up.

If I may suggest something - I'm not sure how's your knowledge of Macedonian, but if you'd like to learn and connect to your roots it would be a good place to start/continue. There are some online resources, and learning/listening/speaking the language may allow you to connect or understand better the Macedonian culture and people. There are many videos on youtube; just one example - there are lots of Macedonian folk tales uploaded (Македонски народни приказни).
Thanks for seeing it that way, I just thought maybe thats how most people felt about them. I watch Mario's history talks on youtube I know how this community feels about umd but I still think the content he uploads is good. I can't read or write in Macedonian and I can't really speak it properly either so I generally try to find videos on Macedonia in English.
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