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Old 07-25-2010, 06:07 AM   #1
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Default "Greek Independence" Greatest Fallacy

QUOTE: "Standing there an hour alone I dreamt that Greece might once be free." — Byron.

If the man was still alive today, he would still be standing and wandering what has gone wrong.

It is one of the bitterest ironies that every year on March 25 celebrations of Independence Day, take place in Athens and infact celebrated by Greeks around the world. Question is, is Greece truly an Independant state? or in fact, has Greece lost her independence to the British and the United States long ago. I would go as far as to say, Greece has never been independant and the celebrations on March 25 is a sham and Greeks do not realise it. Lets go through stages of the Greek history to prove what a great Fallcy this "Greek Independence" is and we will see another true parts of glorious Greece. Lord byron would be rolling around in his grave.


I will start from 1832 which is the year of creation of Greece. We can talk about the Ancient Hellenes (not to mistaken them with modern Greeks) which will be irelevent to this subject but even they were enslaved by firstly the Macedonians, folowed by Romans then Ottomans and i apoligise if i have forgoten any empire in between.
Please note the following work is not mine. The only credit i will take is the research, editing and compilation of the bits of research that i post in diferent periods.



1832 "Independence Day"

QUOTE: "Modern Greece has had a rather “idiosyncratic history,” as the first Greek Nobel laureate, George Seferis, has noted."
"A country created as the result of German philhellenism and Slavophobia, on the one hand, and British and French realpolitik against the Ottoman Empire, on the other, Greece was established as a sovereign nation in 1832, after a war for independence that lasted roughly eight years (1821 – 29). The notion of the sovereign nation ought to be taken judiciously in the case of Greece, however, as a foreign (German, indeed, Bavarian) king was installed by the Great Powers, followed by a royal family with kinship ties to the British and Danish throne, intermarrying, eventually, with both the Russian and the German royal lines".

For seven years (1821-28) the so called Greeks together with foriegners fought against the mighty Ottoman Empire.
The Governments of Britain, France and Tsarist Russia intervened and put an end to the fighting. They compelled Turkey to accept that the Southern part of Greece should become an independent country. What sort of "independence" the three protecting powers had in store for their protege it did not take long for the Greeks to experience and on their own backs.



New Masters

Whilst the Greeks had been engaged in fighting the Turks, new foreign masters were appearing on the scene; the British capitalists were moving into devastated and hungry Greece—to stay. They made their first bid through the loan of £800,000 made to the fighting and bleeding Greeks in 1823. Only £308,000 ever reached Greece. The £500,000 odd were extracted beforehand by the British bankers as interest and expenses…Two years later, when the struggle in Greece was desperate, the second British loan followed. Its nominal value was £2 million. But Greece actually received only £816,000, and out of this sum again only £232,000 ever reached the country. £584,000 was squandered in buying vessels which never arrived. The British money-lenders had, in fact, swallowed nine- tenths of this loan. These first two loans constituted the bond which ultimately chained Greece completely to British capitalism.


Political Subjugation

Together with the economic went the political subjugation of the country. Without the Greek people even being asked, the three "protecting powers" (Britain, 'France and Russia) stipulated in the London Protocol of May 7, 1832, that Greece should be an "independent monarchy under the guarantee of the Powers". They then imported a Bavarian prince into Greece whom they installed as King Otto I. The new King, before setting foot on Greek soil, had solemnly promised to govern constitutionally. Naturally he lied. Among his first acts was the abolition of all—even the most elementary—civil liberties, setting up an absolute monarchy par excellence. He brought with him a Bavarian army—the Greeks called them locusts—to keep "law and order". The people, starving and in rags, awaited the distribution of the lands of the Turks who had left. Instead the lands were declared "national", i.e. King's property. Meanwhile, the numerically small Greek bourgeoisie, which had taken an active part in the organisation of the national revolution against the Turks, came to terms with the few Greek land-owners who had collaborated with the Turkish masters and with the foreign capitalists who were now making themselves the virtual masters of the country.

To the people's demand for land and freedom the King's reply was the dispatch of his Bavarian "soldateska" to the provinces to put down revolts, which were breaking out everywhere, by fire and lead. Meanwhile the foreign bankers were exploiting the new "independent" and "protected" Greek State in a way which would have made Shylock appear to be a generous donor. When King Otto arrived in Greece, they granted a loan of 64,000,000 gold francs, out of which 33,000,000 francs were extracted right away for expenses and payments to various agents. Greece had to pay for this loan 6,300,000 gold francs yearly in interest and amortisation out of a State budget of 13,000,000 francs altogether. A hundred years later, in 1933, Greece was still paying back this loan, still "owing" 37,000,000 francs, although the initial amount had already been repaid several times over.


So the powers of Britain, France and Russia together with the imported Bavarian prince "King Otto" are the new Foriegn Masters just like the Turks were before them, is Greece truly Independant?????

Dictionary meaning of "independence" and can the newly formed Greece between 1833-62 tick any of these box's ?

in·de·pen·dent (nd-pndnt)
adj.
1. Not governed by a foreign power; self-governing.
2. Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others; self-reliant: an independent mind.
3. Not determined or influenced by someone or something else; not contingent: a decision independent of the outcome of the study.
4. often Independent Affiliated with or loyal to no one political party or organization.
5. Not dependent on or affiliated with a larger or controlling entity:


To Be Continued.
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Old 07-25-2010, 09:09 PM   #2
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“The Great Idea”


Quote:
The first monarchy in Greece lasted for thirty years (1833-62). Throughout its duration not a year passed without some minor or major revolt of the people.

It was during this period that the tottering monarchy resorted to a diabolical method of deceiving the people and pushing them into expansionist adventures whenever its misrule was about to meet the people's challenge. This invention was "THE GREAT IDEA"
OK so this "Megali Idea" was started by the Bavarian King and the Great Powers. Why? Just like they were deceived earlier on that they were "sons, grandchildren and relatives of Pericles, Demostenisa and sons of Socrates" so the plans of creating a nation can be achieved by the west, Only this time, the desperate deception was in order to stop the collapse of this new nation and turning on the Monarchy.


Quote:
The monarchy magnified this legitimate aspiration of the people into a fantastic chauvinistic mirage. It propagated that Greece was direct heir to the Byzantine Empire (conquered by the Turks 450 years before);
Another Great Fallacy

Quote:
Now this Empire would be resurrected; that Greeks would follow the paths of Alexander the Great and that the King of Greece would enter Constantinople in triumph.
Is this possibly where the biggest modern day Fallacy all began and the name Alexander The Great was first introduced to these fake Greeks by the west?

How gullible were these people. Its just more evidence that these people were to simple to be related to Pericles and Socrates, they were wise men from what i can gather. I also read somewhere a "Hellene" was a "badge of education" (Isocrates, Panegyricus, 50. http://www.classicpersuasion.org/pw/...es/pwisoc4.htm)i bet not many badges were handed out those days lol.


Quote:
It was easy for the people, politically immature and with a corrupt political leadership, to be taken in by "THE GREAT IDEA" and be led into one catastrophic war after another by their unscrupulous monarchy. The Greek historian and politician, N. Dragoumis, wrote:

"Because dissatisfaction with the rulers was general and the Government was constantly in fear of revolts, "The Great Idea" was propagated in order to electrify the people and turn their attention from the internal problems to the external grandeur of the Fatherland."
Date: March 25, 1950
Source: World News and Views, Vol. 29, No. 44
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Old 07-26-2010, 07:39 AM   #3
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The Glucksburgs

Now its 1862 and Otto was exiled. May be now the New Greeks can actually claim they are Independent for the first time.

But not so fast. The "protecting" powers, especially Britain, would not dream of allowing such a development.

Quote:
The British Royal Household at once started a hasty search among the various unemployed princes of Europe to find one who would agree to become His Britannic Majesty's King of Greece. The Royal House of Denmark, having great experience in the business, provided the desired specimen. It was Prince Christian Glucksburg, son of the Danish King. He agreed to become King of Greece under the name of King George I, after he had been given a pledge that he would receive £12,000 per annum for life. He, for his part, promised to do nothing embarrassing to British policy, which was to prevent the collapse of the corrupt and disintegrating Turkish Empire, since it was through Turkey that Britain was trying to stop Russia reaching the Mediterranean.
The Greeks, therefore, had to be kept docile and powerless.
Hmmm so the foreign masters remained they just changed their puppet. And how did they keep the Greeks docile and powerless?

Quote:
To achieve this end Lord Palmerston, as British Prime Minister, proclaimed at about the same time (1863): "The only thing Greece needs is an effective police." (The present Prime Minister is of the same opinion and that is why he keeps a British Police Mission in Greece.)

Thus the new monarchy of the Glucksburgs stepped into the shoes of Otto. Repression and corruption were the means by which the people were kept in submission. Whenever, under the Glucksburgs, things reached breaking point inside the country "THE GREAT IDEA" was pulled out of the drawer by the King. A sham war, costing the people lives and money, would be unleashed against Turkey. Then, as pre-arranged, the Great Powers "intervened", the British Navy would appear in Greek waters and the sham war would be called off. This happened in 1868, 1878 and 1897.
First they had,
George I who reigned 30 March 1863 – 18 March 1913

Followed by
George II of Greece, Reign
27 September 1922 – 25 March 1924, and later 3 November 1935 – 1 April 1947


Not Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others; self-reliant: an independent mind.
determined or influenced by someone or something else; not contingent: a decision independent of the outcome of the study.
dependent on or affiliated with a larger or controlling entity:

Hardly Independent now are they.
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Old 07-26-2010, 08:33 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Bill77 View Post
“The Great Idea”


OK so this "Megali Idea" was started by the Bavarian King and the Great Powers.

I gotta remind you that the Greek policy(actually it was western european`s policy) of "Megali Idea" was responsible for the lives of ~250.000 Greeks and Turks between 1919...1922. Then forced immigration of two million people at 1923 and the massacre of ~80.000 people in Cyprus between 1960...1974.
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Old 07-26-2010, 12:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill77 View Post
QUOTE:
Please note the following work is not mine. The only credit i will take is the research, editing and compilation of the bits of research that i post in diferent periods.

1832 "Independence Day"

QUOTE: "Modern Greece has had a rather “idiosyncratic history,” as the first Greek Nobel laureate, George Seferis, has noted."
"A country created as the result of German philhellenism and Slavophobia, on the one hand, and British and French realpolitik against the Ottoman Empire, on the other, Greece was established as a sovereign nation in 1832, after a war for independence that lasted roughly eight years (1821 – 29). The notion of the sovereign nation ought to be taken judiciously in the case of Greece, however, as a foreign (German, indeed, Bavarian) king was installed by the Great Powers, followed by a royal family with kinship ties to the British and Danish throne, intermarrying, eventually, with both the Russian and the German royal lines".
Well, maybe you should re-edit the posts and mention the authors. For instance, one might have thought that all the blue part is a quote by Seferis.
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Old 07-26-2010, 05:33 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Onur View Post
Then forced immigration of two million people at 1923.
Explain to me how a nation, whos army had just been devestated, had the power to force the nation that defeated it into anything?

On what planet do the defeated dictate peace terms to the victors during treaty negotiations?

I trust your response will contain even more garbage than your above statement.

But hey, Im curious to see if your bullshit has any bounds.
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Old 07-26-2010, 06:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
Explain to me how a nation, whos army had just been devestated, had the power to force the nation that defeated it into anything?

On what planet do the defeated dictate peace terms to the victors during treaty negotiations?

I trust your response will contain even more garbage than your above statement.

But hey, Im curious to see if your bullshit has any bounds.

It was because of the horrible condition created by "Megali Idea". Maybe because we saw your actions when you invaded Aegean Anatolia and we feared that you gonna perform genocide upon 600.000 Turks in Greece after your Megali dreams was over. I think you don't wanna enter another argument with me about who demanded and forced for the population exchange since i`ve proved it to you several times.

Also we fought vs Bavarian King`s army at 1821 then we fought vs British in Aegean Anatolia at 1922. We also negotiated with the British in Lausanne at 1923. You Greeks were just peons.

P. S: Ohhhh, whatta coincidence!, we also doing so-called peace negotiations with the EU in Cyprus right now.


Quote:
...had the power to force the nation that defeated...
Are you sure that Greece are really a nation? In the books i`ve read, it says that the primary criteria to be a real nation is independence and sovereignty.

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Old 07-26-2010, 07:40 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Onur View Post
It was because of the horrible condition created by "Megali Idea".
What was?
Quote:
Maybe because we saw your actions when you invaded Aegean Anatolia and we feared that you gonna perform genocide upon 600.000 Turks in Greece after your Megali dreams was over.
Is that a guess?

In anycase, lets assume your reason is accurate.
So if you were scared of the greeks genociding the Turks in greece, wouldnt that mean that Turkey wanted the exchange?
And doesnt that contradict your initial statement that Greece forced the change on you?
You're all over the map Onur.
Take a minute, focus, and recenter yourself
Quote:
I think you don't wanna enter another argument with me about who demanded and forced for the population exchange since i`ve proved it to you several times.
I seemed to have missed these 'many times', can you refresh my memory by providing a link to where you "proved" this?
Quote:
You Greeks were just peons.
So, let me see this 'logic' here.
You were 100% against a pop. exchange after defeating the nation you were negotiating a peace treaty with, yet these mere peons forced a pop. exchange on you ?
Wow.
I thought your bullshit did have bounds.
You proved me wrong.
Quote:
Are you sure that Greece are really a nation?
As far as i know, and from what I learned in school, or have read, I would have to say Greece is considered a nation.
If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.
Otherwise, your attempts at insulting me as a response to being made to look the fool yet again are pathetic.

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Old 07-26-2010, 07:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thessalo-niki View Post
Well, maybe you should re-edit the posts and mention the authors. For instance, one might have thought that all the blue part is a quote by Seferis.
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LOL.....Here you go you cry baby.

QUOTE: "Modern Greece has had a rather idiosyncratic history", as the first Greek Nobel laureate, George Seferis, has noted.

QUOTE: "A country created as the result of German philhellenism and Slavophobia, on the one hand, and British and French realpolitik against the Ottoman Empire, on the other, Greece was established as a sovereign nation in 1832, after a war for independence that lasted roughly eight years (1821 – 29). The notion of the sovereign nation ought to be taken judiciously in the case of Greece, however, as a foreign (German, indeed, Bavarian) king was installed by the Great Powers, followed by a royal family with kinship ties to the British and Danish throne, intermarrying, eventually, with both the Russian and the German royal lines.

For seven years (1821-28) the so called Greeks together with foriegners fought against the mighty Ottoman Empire.
The Governments of Britain, France and Tsarist Russia intervened and put an end to the fighting. They compelled Turkey to accept that the Southern part of Greece should become an independent country. What sort of "independence" the three protecting powers had in store for their protege it did not take long for the Greeks to experience and on their own backs".


Desert Islands: Ransom of Humanity
Neni Panourgiá.


Does this change history in your eyes now? and how? now that all i did was simply seperated the paragraph (where Neni Panourgia quoted George Seferis)
http://publicculture.org/articles/vi...om-of-humanity

Now answer me this,
Between 1833 (the year one Master was outed and replaced with a new) and 1947 (end of George II of Greece, Reign) can you say that Greece was,
A) Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others; self-reliant: an independent mind?
B) Not dependent on or affiliated with a larger or controlling entity?



Help me out here champ. I am trying to get a grasp on your plastic bullshit history. All i am trying to do is understand you guys. You know....just trying to get to know you. One thing i hate is people saying "you don't know me what gives you the right to talk about me"

Or are you just going to disappear again after making a useless comment and bury your head in the sand in hope this goes away like you do in every thread you are asked a question.
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Old 07-27-2010, 01:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill77 View Post
LOL.....Here you go you cry baby.

QUOTE: "Modern Greece has had a rather idiosyncratic history", as the first Greek Nobel laureate, George Seferis, has noted.

QUOTE: "A country created as the result of German philhellenism and Slavophobia, on the one hand, and British and French realpolitik against the Ottoman Empire, on the other, Greece was established as a sovereign nation in 1832, after a war for independence that lasted roughly eight years (1821 – 29). The notion of the sovereign nation ought to be taken judiciously in the case of Greece, however, as a foreign (German, indeed, Bavarian) king was installed by the Great Powers, followed by a royal family with kinship ties to the British and Danish throne, intermarrying, eventually, with both the Russian and the German royal lines.

For seven years (1821-28) the so called Greeks together with foriegners fought against the mighty Ottoman Empire.
The Governments of Britain, France and Tsarist Russia intervened and put an end to the fighting. They compelled Turkey to accept that the Southern part of Greece should become an independent country. What sort of "independence" the three protecting powers had in store for their protege it did not take long for the Greeks to experience and on their own backs".


Desert Islands: Ransom of Humanity
Neni Panourgiá.


Does this change history in your eyes now? and how? now that all i did was simply separated the paragraph (where Neni Panourgia quoted George Seferis)
You didn't separate it enough. Here's why it's critical.
George Seferis is a major Greek poet (his radical views were very important among conservatives since he was also a diplomat).
Neni Panourgia is a respected left-wing anthropologist, now teaching in Columbia, USA. She wrote the first paragraph.
The second paragraph is not by Neni. Some of it is written in 1950 by Theodore Doganis, a Greek communist journalist in an English Marxist journal (World News and Views). Actually major parts of it are re-edited by you, to make it sound worse. E.g. instead of Greeks you say "so called Greeks". He says "For seven years (1821-28) the Greeks fought alone against the mighty Ottoman Empire", so you change it and so on.
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