Serbia Pulled Diplomats From Macedonia Over 'Offensive' Actions

[Risto the Great]

https://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/serbia-cites-intelligence-offensive-against-its-staff-in-macedonia-08-21-2017

Serbian leaders say they withdrew diplomatic staff from Macedonia after receiving intelligence about 'offensive actions' planned against Serbia.

Aleksandar Vucic, Serbian President, on Monday said Serbian embassy staff were withdrawn from Macedonia after Belgrade obtained “evidence of very offensive intelligence against the institutions of Serbia”.

Foreign Minister Ivica Dacic gave a similar statement to the news agency Tanjug, also citing “offensive actions against the Republic of Serbia.”

Both Vucic and Dacic also said "foreign powers" were also involved, but declined to provide more details.

Dacic told Tanjug that Serbia would take measures to protect its interests in Macedonia and added that next week, after the consultations, part of the diplomatic staff would return to Skopje. The ambassador would return later.

The President and Foreign Minister insisted that Serbia wished to maintain good relations with Skopje, adding, however, that the circumstance had changed in recent months.

“We will continue to develop friendly relations between Belgrade and Skopje. We only want for our people to be prepared and ready to protect the friendship of Serbs and Macedonians, but also for us to know how to act in the different and new environment that we have not been familiar with until a few months ago,” Vucic added.

Macedonia's government stated on Monday evening that Skopje is firmly "committed to resolving rather than producing problems" and to improving cooperation and partnership with its neighbours.

“When it comes to this particular case, without jumping into conclusions, we welcome Belgrade’s announcement that it will protect friendly relations,” the government wrote in a press release.

Late in May, the former ruling party in Macedonia, VMRO-DPMNE, led by Nikola Gruveski, was ousted from power and replaced with the rival Social Democratic Party, led by Zoran Zaev.

Serbia unexpectedly withdrew all its diplomatic staff from Skopje, Macedonia, on Sunday.

Amid reports that Serbia's move followed a Macedonian plan to propose Kosovo's membership of UNESCO, which is seen contrary to Serbia's national interests, Macedonia issued a statement saying that "Macedonia develops friendly relations with all neighbouring countries.

“When there are open and sensitive questions between two of our neighbours, the Macedonian government always follows the interests of the country, based on the principles of good neighbourly relations and improvement of the regional cooperation, neutrality and non-interference in the disputes between countries," the government said earlier on Monday.

Vucic said Belgrade would wait to see whether Kosovo's UNESCO bid was again on the table. “Then we will wait to see what Skopje and Podgorica and many others will say,” Vucic said.

Serbia does not recognise Kosovo's declaration of independence of 2008 and still considers the former province part of its own territory.

Regarding another vote on Kosovo's UNESCO membership, the new Macedonian government added that "it will have in mind the positions of the majority of EU member states".

Most EU member states long ago recognised Kosovo's independence.

FYROM is an Albanian vassal state. Of course it will recognise Kosovo's independence.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Recognising Kosovo was one the stupidest things the government ever did and it's not easy to back-out of it now either.

[vicsinad]

It's ironic that Serbia is blasting Macedonia for "wiretapping" them, but then Serbia's FM says to Macedonia: "We know everything you're doing."

There's more to this than UNESCO membership and supposed Macedonian spying.

[Phoenix]

It's ironic that Serbia is blasting Macedonia for "wiretapping" them, but then Serbia's FM says to Macedonia: "We know everything you're doing."

There's more to this than UNESCO membership and supposed Macedonian spying.

Lets call it out for what it is...Serbia is the last man standing in terms of avoiding total subservience to the USA in Europe.

Zaev, his party and their supporters have joined the shiptari as America's biggest lap-dogs on the Balkans...the dogs have now been let loose to put the bite on the serbs...it's a game of intimidation and political isolation until the serbs fall in line.

Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about the serbs...in my view they deserve far worse but Macedonia should never be doing the dirty work on behalf of the USA...our political class doesn't know how to play that game because they're seduced by personal gain rather than putting national interests first.

[vicsinad]

Lets call it out for what it is...Serbia is the last man standing in terms of avoiding total subservience to the USA in Europe.

Zaev, his party and their supporters have joined the shiptari as America's biggest lap-dogs on the Balkans...the dogs have now been let loose to put the bite on the serbs...it's a game of intimidation and political isolation until the serbs fall in line.

Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about the serbs...in my view they deserve far worse but Macedonia should never be doing the dirty work on behalf of the USA...our political class doesn't know how to play that game because they're seduced by personal gain rather than putting national interests first.

Macedonia certainly has increasingly become an American pawn since Zaev took power, but there is no doubt that Serbia is Russia's pawn. They act like they are independent-oriented, but in reality Serbia would be on its knees if Russia wasn't backing them. Serbia is simply upset that their "little former Yugoslav brothers" are not subservient to their wishes. Which I wouldn't mind so much had Macedonia been acting in its own interests as opposed to others' interests.

Aside from the Russian-US battle, I think Macedonia was wrong to recognize Kosovo and to suggest support for its UNESCO membership not because it upset Serbia, but because they got no concessions from the Albanians in Macedonia or in Kosovo. The only concessions were promises from the Albanian political parties to support one Macedonian party or another, or to supposedly not cause "problems."

You're right that Macedonia's political class does not know how to play the political game. They've fumbled the ball too often.

[Pelagonija]

I think without doubt the Americans were behind the wiretapping scandal and installation of that peder Zaev in MKD. Americans are the masters of divide and control.

I'm not pro or anti Serb, though I think we should work together with our orthodox brothers not against.


US meddling in Macedonia, CIA wants fall of Serbia

https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2017&mm=08&dd=24&nav_id=102147

[Risto the Great]

that peder Zaev in MKD. Americans are the masters of divide and control.

I think you meant to write pedo. Rumour has it he has a 16 year old mistress.

I'm not pro or anti Serb, though I think we should work together with our orthodox brothers not against.


US meddling in Macedonia, CIA wants fall of Serbia
https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politic...&nav_id=102147

Are Greeks our Orthodox brothers also?

[Pelagonija]

I think you meant to write pedo. Rumour has it he has a 16 year old mistress.


Are Greeks our Orthodox brothers also?

Politics aside culturally yes.. I grew up with Greeks..

[Risto the Great]

Politics aside culturally yes.. I grew up with Greeks..

You're suggesting politics can be set aside from religion. I would say it is the definition of modern orthodoxy to include politics. So must suggest your hope is impossible.

My friend recently spent time in Sveta Gora, he became a bit of an unwelcome guest when one of the Greek religious elders tried to teach him about NOT being a Macedonian.

[Pelagonija]

You're suggesting politics can be set aside from religion. I would say it is the definition of modern orthodoxy to include politics. So must suggest your hope is impossible.

My friend recently spent time in Sveta Gora, he became a bit of an unwelcome guest when one of the Greek religious elders tried to teach him about NOT being a Macedonian.

I would suggest for such persons to not misinterpret the orthodox religion. We would not have such problems if this wasn't the case..

Obviously the "Greek religious leader" is not so religious after all. Hope your friend is ok.

[vicsinad]

I'm not pro or anti Serb, though I think we should work together with our orthodox brothers not against.

I'm still waiting for the SOC to recognize the MOC's independence. Actually, I'm waiting for most Orthodox churches to recognize the MOC. Not very brotherly of Orthodox Serbs in their treatment of Macedonians.

So far as Greeks, Macedonians, Serbians, Bulgarians and Albanians have common interests, they should work together: the rule of law, rooting out corruption, security, economic development, environmental protections, etc. And obviously Serbia and Macedonia have some comparable threats by Albanian Islamic extremism. Yet, our relation and "problems" with Albanians are not the same as Serbia's, and Macedonia and Serbia have taken different paths and approaches regarding relations with Albanians. In this sense, I don't think Macedonia should unconditionally jump to Serbia's defense on all issues relating to Albanians and Muslims.

That said, the Macedonian identity, homeland and culture is an interest that some elements of our neighboring nations are still actively working against. The "pan-Orthodoxy" movement for "brotherhood" is very similar-sounding to the "pan-Slavism" movement of the late 19th and early 20th century. We saw how "brother Slavs" have turned on each other in the past, and we see how "Orthodox brothers" treat us today.

As Risto said, politics is integral to modern Orthodoxy. More specifically, they are still vehicles for nationalism and attaining power. Greeks and the Serbs are the worst offenders, in my opinion.

[Pelagonija]

I'm still waiting for the SOC to recognize the MOC's independence. Actually, I'm waiting for most Orthodox churches to recognize the MOC. Not very brotherly of Orthodox Serbs in their treatment of Macedonians.

So far as Greeks, Macedonians, Serbians, Bulgarians and Albanians have common interests, they should work together: the rule of law, rooting out corruption, security, economic development, environmental protections, etc. And obviously Serbia and Macedonia have some comparable threats by Albanian Islamic extremism. Yet, our relation and "problems" with Albanians are not the same as Serbia's, and Macedonia and Serbia have taken different paths and approaches regarding relations with Albanians. In this sense, I don't think Macedonia should unconditionally jump to Serbia's defense on all issues relating to Albanians and Muslims.

That said, the Macedonian identity, homeland and culture is an interest that some elements of our neighboring nations are still actively working against. The "pan-Orthodoxy" movement for "brotherhood" is very similar-sounding to the "pan-Slavism" movement of the late 19th and early 20th century. We saw how "brother Slavs" have turned on each other in the past, and we see how "Orthodox brothers" treat us today.

As Risto said, politics is integral to modern Orthodoxy. More specifically, they are still vehicles for nationalism and attaining power. Greeks and the Serbs are the worst offenders, in my opinion.

Hi Vic,

The orthodox religion has preserved our culture and identity historically. Now I'm not supportive of pretend priests, but our church is just as bad. That doesn't mean there are no genuine people in our church or Greek or Serb.

I'll take pan orthodoxy over pan capitalism any day?

[Risto the Great]

The orthodox religion has preserved our culture and identity historically.

I would say the odds are about 50:50 on this. The patriarchate and exarchate both played games with the Macedonian people. When I say games, I mean worked to eradicate.

[Pelagonija]

I would say the odds are about 50:50 on this. The patriarchate and exarchate both played games with the Macedonian people. When I say games, I mean worked to eradicate.

No doubt atrocities were commited and our people have suffered significantly including my family directly.

Some people say that no one recognises our church, we don't even recognise ourselves, just look at the Australian/MOC fiasco. Greed does not discriminate on ethnic grounds..

Btw do you believe that pan Capitilism is the way to go? Or that we should be more western?

[vicsinad]

Btw do you believe that pan Capitilism is the way to go? Or that we should be more western?

I don't think it's a choice between Macedonian/Orthodox culture versus capitalism -- at least, not this particular issue. This issue is that we still have our "Orthodox" brothers actively working against the Macedonian nation and people, and that working with them solely because they are Orthodox is not necessarily in the best interests of Macedonians on a variety of issues.

A side note regarding Western values vs. SOC vs. MOC: There was a recent instance in Detroit where a Serbian couple wanted to get married in the Serbian Orthodox Church but were denied because the SOC priest said it was against Orthodox rules to have couples recite their own vows. They then went to the Macedonian Church, in which case the priest said it was no problem and the couple got married in the MOC. I don't think there is any harm in supposedly "bending" Orthodox rules and traditions in Western countries to keep the youth attracted/interested in the MOC community. Though, devout Orthodox Christians might disagree with this. I did have an uncle who started a petition to ban the Halloween dance from the church hall because of its pagan virtues/worship. The MOC priests in Detroit didn't sign on to this cause, whether right or wrong in the eyes of Orthodoxy.

Again, I agree with Risto on the significance of Orthodoxy preserving our culture/identity. That was true only to a certain point, and that certain point was in the 19th century, when nationality became inextricably tied with the Church(es). Macedonians were subjected to an Orthodox rule that was actively promoting either Greek, Bulgarian or Serbian culture/identity over Macedonian culture/identity.