DPMNE sells out Ohrid, 32 meter tall minaret to be Built!!

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  • Liberator of Makedonija
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2014
    • 1595

    #31
    Going off what SoM said about me being ignorant to the Christian culture of the Macedonians and then linking it with what Gocka said about the lack of unity among Macedonians. My point on that Christianity is not a compenent of the identity of many Macedonians is madly aimed at Egejci. I come from a Egej background and I can tell you a huge percentage of Egej are Athiests or generally just non-religious and don't quite understand the extreme Orthodox view of some Macedonians. I assuming most of you have your roots in the Republic which are far more religious than those from the Aegean. The Egejci are proof that Macedonians do not have to be Orthodox to have a strong identity. We also do not classify eachother by religion like some of you in the Republic appear to do.
    I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

    Comment

    • Liberator of Makedonija
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 1595

      #32
      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      This kind of renovation is nothing less than a declaration of war. It seeks to erode the Macedonian identity and over-represents the needs of an almost insignificant minority.

      Your reason for suggesting the minarets are pointless seem to be based on some kind of economic rationality instead of based upon an insidious attack to the Macedonian identity (which is EXTREMELY abundant) in Ohrid.

      I agree the definition of a Macedonian can extend easily to people who are not Orthodox. A former leader was Methodist. In Macedonia, being Muslim is extremely close to a declaration of NOT being Macedonian. I think they should be regarded as Macedonians but they mostly do not. You are possibly confusing your hopes with reality.

      I hope this is quashed and could not think of anything worse than that declaration of war against Macedonians spewed out on loudspeakers at intervals.

      I fail to see how a religion could erode a national identity in this context. If the Macedonian identity is so reliant on Orthodox Christianity then it will struggle to survive. But I know this is not the case seeing how Macedonians survived through the Ottoman period.
      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        #33
        Well, my people are from Egej. I would suggest they are equally or or possibly more religious than those further north.

        Egejci are proof that religion can convert your nationality. Have you been back there lately? Go to a Macedonian church service over there and let me know.

        Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
        Going off what SoM said about me being ignorant to the Christian culture of the Macedonians and then linking it with what Gocka said about the lack of unity among Macedonians. My point on that Christianity is not a compenent of the identity of many Macedonians is madly aimed at Egejci. I come from a Egej background and I can tell you a huge percentage of Egej are Athiests or generally just non-religious and don't quite understand the extreme Orthodox view of some Macedonians. I assuming most of you have your roots in the Republic which are far more religious than those from the Aegean. The Egejci are proof that Macedonians do not have to be Orthodox to have a strong identity. We also do not classify eachother by religion like some of you in the Republic appear to do.
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          #34
          In a couple of sentences, explain how religion had nothing to with the Macedonian identity surviving in the Ottoman period.



          Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
          I fail to see how a religion could erode a national identity in this context. If the Macedonian identity is so reliant on Orthodox Christianity then it will struggle to survive. But I know this is not the case seeing how Macedonians survived through the Ottoman period.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #35
            Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
            My point on that Christianity is not a compenent of the identity of many Macedonians is madly aimed at Egejci. I come from a Egej background and I can tell you a huge percentage of Egej are Athiests or generally just non-religious and don't quite understand the extreme Orthodox view of some Macedonians.
            Well, that is a little different to what you stated earlier. I agree that there are Macedonians who don't consider Christianity as part of their own personal identity. That doesn't discount the fact that Christianity is ingrained in Macedonian culture and that churches and monasteries have been an expression of that culture, particularly from the 9th century onward. In many cases, even Macedonians who are only 'nominal' Christians or 'Atheists' would still perform certain ceremonial customs at a wedding, give their children certain names, use certain everyday terms and phrases, or attend certain celebrations at their villages which are inspired by patron saints. These are all examples of Macedonian culture, and there are many more - all of which have a legacy which is undoubtedly Christian.
            Originally posted by Redsun
            Why is there a mosque in Ohrid? Who built it? How old is it?
            It was built during Ottoman times, either by the Turks, their lackeys or their slaves. Not sure how old it is but Niko777 pointed out that is was built on the foundations of an earlier Christian church which was demolished by the Turks. Although I haven't read up more about it I don't find that scenario unlikely, it seems to have happened in many places across the Balkans and elsewhere.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Pelagonija
              Member
              • Mar 2017
              • 533

              #36
              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
              I kind of get where Liberator is coming from although, I think his view point is not yet fully formed and informed.

              I actually agree that a big fault in Macedonian thinking then and now, was the out casting of those who weren't Macedonian enough. I mean just look at how the transcendence of religion and regional differences have benefited the Albanian ethnicity. On the other hand look at Macedonians, you have Torbeshi, Vlasi, Ejgejci (also called Grci), Pirici (also called Bugari), Srbmonai, Bugarofili, Grkomani, etc. We tend to push each other away, and this weakens our ability to form a strong ethnicity.

              Now here is where I think the viewpoint is not developed enough. You can bring everyone into the fold as Macedonians, but you can't ignore the fact that all these Macedonian groups share a common culture that is in many cases directly tied to our predominantly Orthodox faith. Even Muslim Macedonians celebrate holidays and follow customs that come from our historical Orthodox faith, not their practicing Muslim faith.

              Now as it relates to these Turkish and Saudi funded mega Mosques, not only in Macedonia but all over the Balkans, you have to see through the fact that it is a religious structure, that is part of the con. Like I said, do you think you could get building permits for a 32 meter high home, business, etc, that would blast noise through a loud speaker at some unholy hour for everyone in the area to listen to.

              It is the right of any citizenry to accept or reject what they want i their neighborhood. In my town that I live in, the residents voted that there can be no liquor stores or bars. If the citizens of Ohrid or any other town, don't want a mega mosque, then that is their right. If we are a tolerant and good people, we will make a fair compromise. For example, the mosque is already there, and yes some of the residents use it for worship. So a fair compromise would be that you can renovate it, no larger than its original size, and the minarets can be a maximum height determined by local zoning codes, and you can not broadcast your prayer over loudspeakers, the same way that I can't broadcast what I want over a loud speaker.
              Gocka blame the Ex Yugoslav government for the "Macedonian thinking" just like the Serbian film underground, the people were taught to hate artificially and fear our neighbours during the commie years, when that system fell apart the People turned on each other e.g VMRO vs SDSM.

              As for the Torbeshi, go to labunishta, ask them Why they claim Albanian ancestry in the last census.. furthermore ask people there how many women are married to Christians vs Albanians or Turks.

              Whilst Torbeshi are wonderful people, my gut feeling is that they don't want to be Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Gocka
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 2306

                #37
                Absolutely right about the commie period, that is why my blood boils when I hear Macedonians praising Tito. He was worse for the Macedonian identity than the Ottomans.

                As for Torbeshi, I think they are misunderstood. As a kid, I remember all of us being really mean to the Torbeshi, and ourselves never accepting them as Macedonians. We were just kids, but we learned this from our ignorant parents and grandparents. Just the fact that we have a separate label for them, which has a negative connotation says it all about how much we ever really wanted them to be Macedonian. My wife's best friend was a Torbeshka from Labunista, she spoke Macedonian, didn't understand a word of Albanian, didn't want anything to do with Albanians, and called herself a Makedonski Musliman.

                It's a two way street and I think Macedonians missed the opportunity decades ago to bring Torbeshi into the fold. Vlasi on the other hand are rarely questioned as not being Macedonian, even though they are probably less ethnically Macedonian then Torbeshi. The fact that they are Christian, seems to be the determining factor by which Macedonians have made that distinction. Another interesting distinction was Albanians who were Orthodox living in Macedonia, although there was some mixing and conversion to Macedonians, for the most part they remained Albanian despite the religious difference to the majority of Albanians. Again a missed opportunity to grow.

                Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post
                Gocka blame the Ex Yugoslav government for the "Macedonian thinking" just like the Serbian film underground, the people were taught to hate artificially and fear our neighbours during the commie years, when that system fell apart the People turned on each other e.g VMRO vs SDSM.

                As for the Torbeshi, go to labunishta, ask them Why they claim Albanian ancestry in the last census.. furthermore ask people there how many women are married to Christians vs Albanians or Turks.

                Whilst Torbeshi are wonderful people, my gut feeling is that they don't want to be Macedonian.

                Comment

                • DraganOfStip
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2011
                  • 1253

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post
                  As for the Torbeshi, go to labunishta, ask them Why they claim Albanian ancestry in the last census.. furthermore ask people there how many women are married to Christians vs Albanians or Turks.
                  Whilst Torbeshi are wonderful people, my gut feeling is that they don't want to be Macedonian.
                  Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                  As a kid, I remember all of us being really mean to the Torbeshi, and ourselves never accepting them as Macedonians. We were just kids, but we learned this from our ignorant parents and grandparents. Just the fact that we have a separate label for them, which has a negative connotation says it all about how much we ever really wanted them to be Macedonian.
                  That's the issue in a nutshell. I too have heard more bad words than good for them simply because they're muslims. Maybe it's that inherent ignorance and stereotypes we got from our parents/grandparents. I personally have only met a few torbeshi in Stip (one of them was a colleague from work and another family were friends of the family) and none of them have expressed anti-Macedonian feelings or affiliation to another ethnic group. So I didn't get an impression that they don't want to be Macedonian. But as I said these are only a few people so forming my opinion based only on them would be wrong. If many torbeshi "don't want to be Macedonians" as Pelagonija stated, I believe it's because they've been mistreated and deterred by the actions of their numerically superior Orthodox brethren. Our attitude towards them is what makes them distance themselves from their own kin and feel safer with people of their religion. Yet another case where religion divides people instead of bringing them together. People of same ethnicity looking at each other in a different way due to religious differences.
                  ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                  ― George Orwell

                  Comment

                  • Karposh
                    Member
                    • Aug 2015
                    • 863

                    #39
                    Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                    That's the issue in a nutshell. I too have heard more bad words than good for them simply because they're muslims. Maybe it's that inherent ignorance and stereotypes we got from our parents/grandparents. I personally have only met a few torbeshi in Stip (one of them was a colleague from work and another family were friends of the family) and none of them have expressed anti-Macedonian feelings or affiliation to another ethnic group. So I didn't get an impression that they don't want to be Macedonian. But as I said these are only a few people so forming my opinion based only on them would be wrong. If many torbeshi "don't want to be Macedonians" as Pelagonija stated, I believe it's because they've been mistreated and deterred by the actions of their numerically superior Orthodox brethren. Our attitude towards them is what makes them distance themselves from their own kin and feel safer with people of their religion. Yet another case where religion divides people instead of bringing them together. People of same ethnicity looking at each other in a different way due to religious differences.
                    I feel like this thread has inadvertently taken a turn in the wrong direction since I made my original contribution a few posts back. It wasn't my intention to go on a Muslim Macedonian witch hunt and, if it has escalated to that point, then I apologise. My original intention was to respond directly to LoM naive remark where he suggested that it is of little concern to him which religion enjoys a dominance in Macedonia (even a Muslim dominance) since a Macedonian is a Macedonian is a Macedonian, regardless of religion. Although that it is true to a point, guardianship of the Macedonian identity could never be entrusted to Islam for reasons we are all very familiar with. The rightful guardian of the Macedonian identity is the Macedonian Orthodox Church (putting aside all church politics for a moment and looking at the big picture). Like others have mentioned already, it is the Macedonian Orthodox Church that has strived to keep our identity alive through the centuries and strived to re-establish the Ohrid Archbishopric as the national church of the Macedonians.

                    Dragan, the last thing I would want, and I'm sure most of the others here would want, is to dishearten and discourage Muslim Macedonians, who consider themselves as belonging to the Macedonian nation, from continuing to feel Macedonian with anti-Muslim rhetoric. It would be an absolute shame if we were to lose what's left of this indivisible part of the Macedonian nation to the Albanians. The majority seem to live in places which matter most for Macedonia and that is the western fringes of western Macedonia. Macedonian Wikipedia explains that there is an uninterrupted ribbon along the border with Albania which is inhabited primarily by ethnic Macedonian Muslims and it goes on to say that these people are of great strategic significance for Macedonia, which I think we can all agree with.

                    For that reason alone, I find it hard to believe that people could be mistreating them as you and Gocka have pointed out. I'm not saying they don't but I think it's been over-emphasised a bit. Most sane Macedonians will be well aware of the need to keep these people on side for the reasons mentioned above but, unfortunately, the fact of the matter remains that Islam takes precedence in the lives of many of this part of the Macedonian nation and being Macedonian is not as important as being Muslim. A good example of this is that even among Muslim Macedonians who have a more pronounced Macedonian identity such as those from the Reka region, during the 1950's and 1960's, the calling was so great that they emigrated as Turks to Turkey. The ones that remain are a fraction of the original population that inhabited this area.

                    Comment

                    • DraganOfStip
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2011
                      • 1253

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                      Dragan, the last thing I would want, and I'm sure most of the others here would want, is to dishearten and discourage Muslim Macedonians, who consider themselves as belonging to the Macedonian nation, from continuing to feel Macedonian with anti-Muslim rhetoric. It would be an absolute shame if we were to lose what's left of this indivisible part of the Macedonian nation to the Albanians. The majority seem to live in places which matter most for Macedonia and that is the western fringes of western Macedonia. Macedonian Wikipedia explains that there is an uninterrupted ribbon along the border with Albania which is inhabited primarily by ethnic Macedonian Muslims and it goes on to say that these people are of great strategic significance for Macedonia, which I think we can all agree with.

                      For that reason alone, I find it hard to believe that people could be mistreating them as you and Gocka have pointed out. I'm not saying they don't but I think it's been over-emphasised a bit. Most sane Macedonians will be well aware of the need to keep these people on side for the reasons mentioned above but, unfortunately, the fact of the matter remains that Islam takes precedence in the lives of many of this part of the Macedonian nation and being Macedonian is not as important as being Muslim. A good example of this is that even among Muslim Macedonians who have a more pronounced Macedonian identity such as those from the Reka region, during the 1950's and 1960's, the calling was so great that they emigrated as Turks to Turkey. The ones that remain are a fraction of the original population that inhabited this area.
                      I'm not familiar with the history of the torbeshi population, I was only giving my 2 cents based on my personal experience, both first hand and though hear-say of other people's view on them.
                      ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                      ― George Orwell

                      Comment

                      • Niko777
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2010
                        • 1895

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                        LoM, I take issue with you over these remarks.

                        From the 70 mosques in its Ottoman heyday, Bitola now has ten mosques left. Four are functioning while the other six have been converted to museums or cultural and historical monuments. I can't tell you how much of a disappointment it is, as a Bitola native, to see the city skyline marred by these eyesores.
                        Karposh, I'm not sure if you know this, I never mentioned it on this website, but last year the government of Turkey added a new minaret in the center of Bitola and made a non-funtioning mosque into functioning one. If people here recall there were 2 large mosques with minarets in the center of Bitola. NOW there are 3. I'm refering to the Haydar Kadi mosque, which was abandoned and known as a place where meth users would meet up. Now it is fully restored with the tallest minaret in Bitola.

                        BEFORE:
                        (notice there is no minaret)


                        AFTER:



                        (yes that is an Albanian flag on the minaret, even though it was the Government of Turkey who built it and restored the mosque)

                        Comment

                        • Liberator of Makedonija
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 1595

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          In a couple of sentences, explain how religion had nothing to with the Macedonian identity surviving in the Ottoman period.
                          You misread what I said. I was implying the Archbishopship of Ohrid did help maintain a Macedonian identity of sort during the Ottoman period
                          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                          Comment

                          • Liberator of Makedonija
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 1595

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            Well, that is a little different to what you stated earlier. I agree that there are Macedonians who don't consider Christianity as part of their own personal identity. That doesn't discount the fact that Christianity is ingrained in Macedonian culture and that churches and monasteries have been an expression of that culture, particularly from the 9th century onward. In many cases, even Macedonians who are only 'nominal' Christians or 'Atheists' would still perform certain ceremonial customs at a wedding, give their children certain names, use certain everyday terms and phrases, or attend certain celebrations at their villages which are inspired by patron saints. These are all examples of Macedonian culture, and there are many more - all of which have a legacy which is undoubtedly Christian.
                            I am willing to agree to that in that many non-Christian Macedonians will practicee some Christian events due to their connection to Macedonian culture. But I will point out that it is only because Orthodox Christianity is the dominant religion of Macedonians, if it were any other religion then they would practice that too. Personally I don't even practice these religious events, nor do any of my family but I can understand why others do.
                            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                            Comment

                            • Liberator of Makedonija
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 1595

                              #44
                              Praise to Gocka and Dragan for their comments regarding Macedonian Muslims.

                              Isn't it hypocritical how Macedonians are so quick to claim the Gorani as Macedonians despite them being overwhelmingly Muslim yet often discriminate against Macedonian Muslims in the Republic for being Muslim and trying to claim they are less Macedonian than the Orthodox Macedonians because of it?
                              I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                                You misread what I said. I was implying the Archbishopship of Ohrid did help maintain a Macedonian identity of sort during the Ottoman period
                                I don't know how to read the following based on your reply above:
                                I fail to see how a religion could erode a national identity in this context. If the Macedonian identity is so reliant on Orthodox Christianity then it will struggle to survive. But I know this is not the case seeing how Macedonians survived through the Ottoman period.
                                So you are saying the religion helped the Macedonian identity? But relying on it now will mean the Macedonian identity will struggle to survive?

                                Did you see Niko777's post above? A minaret is built by Turks and is immediately claimed as a symbol of Albania with flag and all.

                                You should explain it better if you can.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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