Nikola Karev

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  • nushevski77
    Junior Member
    • Jul 2018
    • 19

    Nikola Karev

    post deleted
    Last edited by nushevski77; 09-19-2020, 02:54 PM.
  • Liberator of Makedonija
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2014
    • 1595

    #2
    Karev's name was dragged through the dirt by the Yugoslav communists; his portrayal as a Bulgarophile was the result of politics.
    I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

    Comment

    • Stevce
      Member
      • Jan 2016
      • 200

      #3
      In an interview he did with a Greek newspaper, you can read the words right out of his mouth what he was.

      Comment

      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332

        #4
        Here is the thread from 2011: "Interview with Nikola Karev 1903 I am Macedonian"
        еве го оргиналниот текст на грчки

        Comment

        • Liberator of Makedonija
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2014
          • 1595

          #5
          Originally posted by Stevce View Post
          In an interview he did with a Greek newspaper, you can read the words right out of his mouth what he was.
          Yes exactly, that interview really does say it all. His demotion to a "controversial figure" in the second Yugoslavia was a result of his family's actions during that period, which ran in opposition to Tito's state policy at the time.
          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

          Comment

          • Liberator of Makedonija
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 1595

            #6
            Originally posted by nushevski77
            Thank you, he is a Macedonian not a Bulgarophile. So why now is there no mending of his legacy, its shameful for everything he did for Macedonia and is treated like this because of Tito's political ideology. Why was this image not fixed in the 1990's?
            Why would it? You're talking about a country that is giving away all our historical figures to Bulgaria and Greece, why would they bother rehabilitating Karev?
            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

            Comment

            • Liberator of Makedonija
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 1595

              #7
              Originally posted by nushevski77
              Have the people always been like this? I meant in the 1990's when we gained independence, I figured there would be a huge surge in national sentiment then. I never expected it now, I should have worded it better.
              People were more concerned with having access to food than worrying about long-dead historical figures.
              I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

              Comment

              • Karposh
                Member
                • Aug 2015
                • 863

                #8
                I was reading some of the back-and-forth arguments expressed in the Talk page of Karev’s English Wikipedia entry (with regard to his self-identification as a Macedonian) and I thought I might share some of these here as they’re quiet amusing. However, just for a bit of fun, I’ll intertwine these selected arguments into the interview as though they were coming from the mouths of three additional (but hypothetical) participants who are sitting at a table adjacent to where the interview is being conducted between Karev and the Acropolis journalist. The three eavesdropping intruders to this discourse include the following:

                i. Modern Greek Apologist – This guy always has an argument in defence of something controversial.
                ii. Modern Bulgarian Chauvinist – Come hell or high water, this guy will not give an inch when it comes to how the Macedonian revolutionaries of old saw themselves. They were all Bulgarians he will tell you.
                iii. Impartial Observer – This guy just calls it as he sees it with no agenda or bias behind him.

                Note: I have colour coded my three intruders in red. Let’s begin…

                [GREEK JOURNALIST]: Are you Macedonian?
                [NIKOLA KAREV]: Yes.
                [GREEK APOLIGIST]: The Greek journalist is clearly asking him if he is a “regional” Macedonian…That’s what Karev means when he says ‘yes’…He is a regional Macedonian.
                [BULGARIAN CHAUVINIST]: No, no, he means he is a Macedonian Bulgarian, just like a Thracian Bulgarian or a Dobrujan Bulgarian.
                [IMPARTIAL OBSERVER]: That’s odd…Why on earth would the interviewer ask Karev, an inhabitant of Macedonia, if he was a Macedonian in the regional sense?
                [GREEK JOURNALIST]: And subsequently Greek?
                [NIKOLA KAREV]: I do not know about this. I am Macedonian.
                [GREEK APOLIGIST]: See, what did I tell you? Since historically, Ancient Macedonians have been equivalent with Greeks, Karev basically responds that he is not Greek. This proves the Greek interviewer interpreted "Macedonian" in the regional sense.
                [BULGARIAN CHAUVINIST]: No, what he’s saying is that he is a Macedonian Bulgarian…Let’s not forget, he graduated from the Bulgarian Exarchate’s Gymnasium in Bitola. He was a Bulgarian teacher in Gorno Divjaci and his native Krushevo. He was Bulgarian...Plain and simple.
                [IMPARTIAL OBSERVER]: From what I can see, as an outsider, unless there was a prefix in front of Macedonian (e.g. Greek-Macedonian, Bulgarian-Macedonian, Albanian-Macedonian etc.) we must take it as stated and not assume what else it could have meant. If the Greek journalist asked him if he was Macedonian or Greek and he answered Macedonian, then that means he is an ethnic Macedonian. The fact that he doesn’t specifically say he is an ‘ethnic’ Macedonian should not automatically leave it open to interpretation. We need to accept it as stated. Macedonian is what ethnic Macedonians refer to themselves just as ethnic Germans refer to themselves as "German" and how ethnic French refer to themselves as "French".
                [GREEK APOLIGIST]: Again, totally wrong. Macedonian can mean various things… It can be used by anyone to describe a person from the region of Macedonia. Your German and French analogy does not hold because, unlike Macedonian, those terms are not regionally defined.
                [GREEK JOURNALIST]: Direct descendent to Alexander the Great? (replies sarcastically).
                [NIKOLA KAREV]: Yes.
                [BULGARIAN CHAUVINIST]: Ptu, mamka vi ebam antichka!!! (storms off in disgust and leaves the other two to continue the debate)
                [GREEK JOURNALIST]: And what was Alexander of Macedon, I beg you?
                [NIKOLA KAREV]: I do not know, but history says that he was Greek.
                [GREEK JOURNALIST]: Then you, as his descendant are Greek.
                [NIKOLA KAREV]: No, he answered.
                [IMPARTIAL OBSERVER]: Well, all I can say is this is precisely why we mustn't assume. Did Karev say he was Bulgarian? No. Did he say he was Greek? No. Karev simply said he was a "Macedonian" and that he didn't know whether the Macedonians were Greeks, but that he was Macedonian…a direct descendant of the Ancient Macedonians, no less. And you still say that he meant it regionally? A direct descendant of the Ancient Macedonians does not imply he meant it in a regional sense but in an ethnic one!
                [GREEK APOLIGIST]: Now you're shifting the problem to what the Ancient Macedonians are. Are they Slav or Greeks? Either way the point is you cannot use this interview to prove anything about his ethnicity other than it is not Greek.
                [IMPARTIAL OBSERVER]: No, you're shifting my point to something else. I don't care what the Ancient Macedonians were, but I do care about how Karev felt about the Ancient Macedonians. Clearly, He’s not really into history and has no idea what the Ancient Macedonians were, but he sure considers himself to be an ethnic Macedonian, a descendant of the Ancient Macedonians. My point is that he doesn't consider himself to be an ethnic Bulgarian, but an ethnic Macedonian - Again, a descendant of the Ancient Macedonians! And clearly, he doesn't mean it regionally, since he mentions the Ancient Macedonians, which is, of course, a term that describes ethnicity!
                [GREEK APOLIGIST]: You are basically arguing in circles. This discussion is over for me.
                [IMPARTIAL OBSERVER]: Okay, then. (reaching a stalemate, the remaining two participants depart on their separate ways leaving Karev and the Acropolis journalist to continue with the rest of the interview).

                Comment

                • Amphipolis
                  Banned
                  • Aug 2014
                  • 1328

                  #9
                  (by Woody Allen)

                  Napoleon suddenly enters the room. Boris manages to hide.

                  Napoleon (looks around): I heard you speaking to someone.
                  Sonja (surprised): Oh, I was praying.
                  Napoleon: But I heard TWO voices.
                  Sonja: Well, I do both parts.

                  Comment

                  • Karposh
                    Member
                    • Aug 2015
                    • 863

                    #10
                    Too funny Amphipolis. Sonja is just a slut...Poor, gullible Napoleon.

                    Originally posted by nushevski77
                    This was good, thanks
                    Thanks man. Bottom line is, Karev was a Macedonian and he deserves better. His image has been restored somewhat I think since the commie turncoats tarnished the Karev name with the Bulgarophile tag but I feel Macedonian historiographers need to do more. His letter to Goce Delchev is also a valuable piece of evidence on how he viewed himself and his people.

                    Kolishevski and Co. destroyed many Macedonian patriots' lives (not to mention their families' lives) with that disgusting tag and I really wonder how that piece of shit is seen in Macedonia today. Is he still the national hero that he was proclaimed to be by the Yugo commies or has he been relegated to the back pages of Macedonian history where he belongs?

                    Comment

                    • Liberator of Makedonija
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 1595

                      #11
                      Karposh, where could we read his letter to Delčev?
                      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                      Comment

                      • Karposh
                        Member
                        • Aug 2015
                        • 863

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                        Karposh, where could we read his letter to Delčev?
                        Letter from Nikola Karev to Goce Delchev:
                        1902
                        Dear G(oce)
                        ... In Krushevo and Bitola the night blockades appear almost every day, and a lot of affairs throw people in jail. We shouldn't wait anymore, Goce. It is time for us to stand up and fight. We shouldn't wait for freedom from Greeks, neither from Bulgarians, but we Macedonians should fight for our Macedonia, ... As I am concerned, nobody can take away my courage and my patriotism. I am proud to report to you, that all our men are prepared to fight, with guns in their hands.
                        N(ikola)


                        The above English translation is an abbreviated version of the letter and the source is given as Нова Македонија (Skopje) year XXIV no. 7744 (5 May 1968) p. 8. The whole letter, in Macedonian, can be viewed here:



                        As far as I know, its authenticity is not challenged. And, whether or not the original is in a Macedonian museum somewhere or in the hands of the Bulgarians or Serbs, I cannot tell you either. I did, however, find a 2005 article on Nikola Karev’s nephew, Mishe Karev (who was 76 years old at the time of the interview), from his youngest brother Georgi, in which he explains how much of his uncle Nikola’s personal archive ended up in Serbian and Bulgarian hands.

                        Баба Марија тие писма, но и фотографиите, весниците и другите предмети на Никола ги чувала како света реликвија, но подоцна Србите, Бугарите и нашата комунистичка власт се ни зедоа”, се сеќава на својот славен чичко и на неговата трагична судбина, неговиот сега 76-годишен внук од брат, Мише Карев.
                        Translation:
                        “My Grandmother Maria kept all those letters, but also the photographs and other artifacts of Nikola, and she looked after them like they were holy relics, however, sometime later, the Serbs, Bulgarians and even our own communist party took it all”, recalls the 76 year old nephew about the tragic fate of his famous uncle.

                        The article is in Macedonian and, if you can read Cyrillic, I really recommend reading it as it outlines some of the injustices that the survivors of the Karev family suffered at the hands of the Macedonian communists after the war. His own dad and another uncle both ended up in jail after WWII. And, in 1949, after having murdered Mishe’s dad in jail, the low lives wouldn’t even tell the family where his body was at…To this day the whereabouts of Georgi Karev’s body is unknown. Even Mishe himself spent a year and a half in jail towards the end of the 1950’s for, as he says, his views on Macedonia.

                        Comment

                        • Chicho Makedonski
                          Junior Member
                          • Feb 2019
                          • 47

                          #13
                          What exactly were Karev's family's actions/views on Macedonia in Yugoslavia against Tito, for the Yugoslavs and some Macedonian communists to label him a 'Bulgarophile'?

                          Comment

                          • Liberator of Makedonija
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 1595

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Chicho Makedonski View Post
                            What exactly were Karev's family's actions/views on Macedonia in Yugoslavia against Tito, for the Yugoslavs and some Macedonian communists to label him a 'Bulgarophile'?
                            I read about it not all that long ago but have to admit I've forgotten the details. I think part of the reason one of the Karev's (can't remember if he was the grandson of Nikola or someone else) collaborated with the Bulgarians when they took over Kruševo, and so there was a lot of suspicion cast upon the family following the war.

                            Hs brother, Georgi was tortured in prison as well, though I don't remember what lead to those circumstances.

                            Others here may know the details, unfortunately I can't recall them or where I initially came across them now: read so many books recently
                            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                            Comment

                            • Liberator of Makedonija
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 1595

                              #15
                              Nushevski & Chicho, this may be on interest to you:

                              This is a page taken from Keith Brown's 'The Past in Question' and it touches on the treatment of the Karev family in post-war Yugoslavia.

                              I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                              Comment

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