Just How 'Greek' Was The Byzantine Empire???

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    I wonder if the old Armenian language with a pinch of Romance and a dash of Slav might be the roots of the modern Albanian language(s) ...

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...anian-Armenian
    Great find

    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...120#post175120
    Last edited by Carlin; 07-15-2018, 08:04 AM.

    Comment

    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      “Deus adiuta Romanis” – ‘God help the Romans’





      URL:
      In The Concept of the Elect Nation in Byzantium, Shay Eshel shows how the Old Testament model of the ancient Israelites was a prominent factor in the evolution of Roman-Byzantine national awareness between the 7th and 13th centuries.

      Comment

      • tchaiku
        Member
        • Nov 2016
        • 786

        Originally posted by Carlin View Post







        (From a different piece below, from the same book)



        Bump.

        ......
        Last edited by tchaiku; 08-11-2018, 03:59 AM.

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        • tchaiku
          Member
          • Nov 2016
          • 786

          The "hellenic" Constantinople ... full of barbarians and foreigners. Almost the entire "hellenic" byzantine army were foreigners.

          Comment

          • tchaiku
            Member
            • Nov 2016
            • 786

            Yunan =/= Rum
            Literally the exact quote.

            Arabs knew what was going on 1000 years ago.
            Last edited by tchaiku; 08-18-2018, 03:31 PM.

            Comment

            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              Proceedings of the 23rd International Congress of Byzantine Studies - Belgrade, August 2016

              Plenary Papers:






              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                This book is coming out next year (not out yet)



                Romanland: Ethnicity and Empire in Byzantium Hardcover – Apr 1 2019 by Anthony Kaldellis

                "A leading historian argues that in the empire we know as Byzantium, the Greek-speaking population was actually Roman, and scholars have deliberately mislabeled their ethnicity for the past two centuries for political reasons.

                Was there ever such a thing as Byzantium? Certainly no emperor ever called himself “Byzantine.” And while the identities of minorities in the eastern empire are clear―contemporaries speak of Slavs, Bulgarians, Armenians, Jews, and Muslims―that of the ruling majority remains obscured behind a name made up by later generations.

                Historical evidence tells us unequivocally that Byzantium’s ethnic majority, no less than the ruler of Constantinople, would have identified as Roman. It was an identity so strong in the eastern empire that even the conquering Ottomans would eventually adopt it. But Western scholarship has a long tradition of denying the Romanness of Byzantium. In Romanland, Anthony Kaldellis investigates why and argues that it is time for the Romanness of these so-called Byzantines to be taken seriously.

                In the Middle Ages, he explains, people of the eastern empire were labeled “Greeks,” and by the nineteenth century they were shorn of their distorted Greekness and became “Byzantine.” Only when we understand that the Greek-speaking population of Byzantium was actually Roman will we fully appreciate the nature of Roman ethnic identity. We will also better understand the processes of assimilation that led to the absorption of foreign and minority groups into the dominant ethnic group, the Romans who presided over the vast multiethnic empire of the east."



                My point: and this will subsequently be talked about and researched more in the future -- these native Greek-speaking population(s) of Byzantium were mostly bilingual, many of them actually speaking Vlach dialects, and to a lesser extent other languages/dialects: Albanian, Slavonic, etc. Cyril Mango was one guy who already raised some interesting points and asked uncomfortable questions.

                The following is a (repeat) quote from Cyril Mango (Cyril Mango. Byzantium: The Empire of New Rome. Scribner's, 1980.):

                "It will have been sufficient for our imaginary traveller, provided he did not intend to stray far from the cities, to know only two languages, namely Greek and Latin. The boundaries of their respective diffusion were not in all places sharply drawn. It may be said, however, as a rough approximation that the linguistic frontier ran through the Balkan peninsula along an east-west line from Odessos (Varna) on the Black Sea to Dyrrachium (Durres) on the Adriatic; while south of the Mediterranean it divided Libya from Tripolitania. With the exception of the Balkan lands, where there was a fair amount of mingling, the western half of the Empire was solidly Latin and the eastern half solidly Greek in the sense that those were the languages of administration and culture. Nearly all educated persons in the East could speak Greek, just as all educated persons in the West spoke Latin, but a great proportion of ordinary people spoke neither....................... When we look at our scanty sources; we realize that the formulation of the above questions does not correspond to the Byzantine way of thinking. First of all, the very designation 'Greek', which we use so freely today to describe those Byzantines who did not belong to any alien group, is entirely absent from tlie literature of the period. An inhabitant of Greece south of Thessaly would have referred to himself as a Helladikos (a name already current in the sixth century AD), but he could have been a Slav as well as a 'Greek'. The same holds true of other regions whose dwellers called themselves by the names of their respective provinces, for example Paphlagonians or Thraksians (after the Thraksian 'theme' in western Asia Minor). Since, therefore, there was no notion of 'Greekness', it is hard to see how there could have been one of 'hellenization'. The only passage, to my knowledge, that may imply something of the kind says that the Emperor Basil I converted the Slavonic tribes from their old religion and, 'having grecized them (graikosas), subjected them to governors according to Roman custom, honoured them with baptism, and delivered them from the oppression of their own rulers'. It has long been, however, a matter of dispute what the term 'grecized' may mean in the present context. What we do hear about, again and again, is the conversion of various peoples to Orthodox Christianity, be they pagan Slavs or Muslim Cretans, and the setting up of an ecclesiastical organization. Here is how the Chronicle of Monembasia describes the activity of the Emperor Nicephorus I in the Peloponnese: 'He built de novo the town of Lacedaemon and settled in it a mixed population, namely Kafirs, Thraksians, Armenians and others, gathered from different places and towns, and made it into a bishopric.' Surely, neither the Kafirs (possibly a generic term for converts from Islam) nor the Armenians would have contributed to the hellenization of Laconia. The emperor's purpose was simply to implant a Christian population and set up a bishopric."



                (In many modern/recent books by serious scholars the clearly mixed (non-Greek) populations that were settled in Lacedaemon/Laconia are described simply as Greek! This is just one example.)
                Last edited by Carlin; 10-23-2018, 10:44 PM.

                Comment

                • tchaiku
                  Member
                  • Nov 2016
                  • 786

                  Carlin, what do you think of the idea that modern Greek nationalism started during the Komnenian (11th century) Roman/Byzantine era?
                  Among the aristocratic class of course.
                  Last edited by tchaiku; 10-23-2018, 11:15 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                    Carlin, what do you think of the idea that modern Greek nationalism started during the Komnenian (11th century) Roman/Byzantine era?
                    Among the aristocratic class of course.
                    I don't know much about this idea/claim. Is there a link to an article/book where I can read more about it?

                    (I am interested in reading about it, but I have a hard time believing and accepting that any modern nationalisms started prior to the 18th-19th c.)

                    Comment

                    • Liberator of Makedonija
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 1595

                      Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                      .... but I have a hard time believing and accepting that any modern nationalisms started prior to the 18th-19th c.)
                      Agreed.........
                      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                      Comment

                      • Spirit
                        Member
                        • May 2015
                        • 154

                        Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                        This book is coming out next year (not out yet)



                        Romanland: Ethnicity and Empire in Byzantium Hardcover – Apr 1 2019 by Anthony Kaldellis

                        "A leading historian argues that in the empire we know as Byzantium, the Greek-speaking population was actually Roman, and scholars have deliberately mislabeled their ethnicity for the past two centuries for political reasons.

                        Was there ever such a thing as Byzantium? Certainly no emperor ever called himself “Byzantine.” And while the identities of minorities in the eastern empire are clear―contemporaries speak of Slavs, Bulgarians, Armenians, Jews, and Muslims―that of the ruling majority remains obscured behind a name made up by later generations.

                        Historical evidence tells us unequivocally that Byzantium’s ethnic majority, no less than the ruler of Constantinople, would have identified as Roman. It was an identity so strong in the eastern empire that even the conquering Ottomans would eventually adopt it. But Western scholarship has a long tradition of denying the Romanness of Byzantium. In Romanland, Anthony Kaldellis investigates why and argues that it is time for the Romanness of these so-called Byzantines to be taken seriously.

                        In the Middle Ages, he explains, people of the eastern empire were labeled “Greeks,” and by the nineteenth century they were shorn of their distorted Greekness and became “Byzantine.” Only when we understand that the Greek-speaking population of Byzantium was actually Roman will we fully appreciate the nature of Roman ethnic identity. We will also better understand the processes of assimilation that led to the absorption of foreign and minority groups into the dominant ethnic group, the Romans who presided over the vast multiethnic empire of the east."



                        My point: and this will subsequently be talked about and researched more in the future -- these native Greek-speaking population(s) of Byzantium were mostly bilingual, many of them actually speaking Vlach dialects, and to a lesser extent other languages/dialects: Albanian, Slavonic, etc. Cyril Mango was one guy who already raised some interesting points and asked uncomfortable questions.

                        The following is a (repeat) quote from Cyril Mango (Cyril Mango. Byzantium: The Empire of New Rome. Scribner's, 1980.):

                        "It will have been sufficient for our imaginary traveller, provided he did not intend to stray far from the cities, to know only two languages, namely Greek and Latin. The boundaries of their respective diffusion were not in all places sharply drawn. It may be said, however, as a rough approximation that the linguistic frontier ran through the Balkan peninsula along an east-west line from Odessos (Varna) on the Black Sea to Dyrrachium (Durres) on the Adriatic; while south of the Mediterranean it divided Libya from Tripolitania. With the exception of the Balkan lands, where there was a fair amount of mingling, the western half of the Empire was solidly Latin and the eastern half solidly Greek in the sense that those were the languages of administration and culture. Nearly all educated persons in the East could speak Greek, just as all educated persons in the West spoke Latin, but a great proportion of ordinary people spoke neither....................... When we look at our scanty sources; we realize that the formulation of the above questions does not correspond to the Byzantine way of thinking. First of all, the very designation 'Greek', which we use so freely today to describe those Byzantines who did not belong to any alien group, is entirely absent from tlie literature of the period. An inhabitant of Greece south of Thessaly would have referred to himself as a Helladikos (a name already current in the sixth century AD), but he could have been a Slav as well as a 'Greek'. The same holds true of other regions whose dwellers called themselves by the names of their respective provinces, for example Paphlagonians or Thraksians (after the Thraksian 'theme' in western Asia Minor). Since, therefore, there was no notion of 'Greekness', it is hard to see how there could have been one of 'hellenization'. The only passage, to my knowledge, that may imply something of the kind says that the Emperor Basil I converted the Slavonic tribes from their old religion and, 'having grecized them (graikosas), subjected them to governors according to Roman custom, honoured them with baptism, and delivered them from the oppression of their own rulers'. It has long been, however, a matter of dispute what the term 'grecized' may mean in the present context. What we do hear about, again and again, is the conversion of various peoples to Orthodox Christianity, be they pagan Slavs or Muslim Cretans, and the setting up of an ecclesiastical organization. Here is how the Chronicle of Monembasia describes the activity of the Emperor Nicephorus I in the Peloponnese: 'He built de novo the town of Lacedaemon and settled in it a mixed population, namely Kafirs, Thraksians, Armenians and others, gathered from different places and towns, and made it into a bishopric.' Surely, neither the Kafirs (possibly a generic term for converts from Islam) nor the Armenians would have contributed to the hellenization of Laconia. The emperor's purpose was simply to implant a Christian population and set up a bishopric."



                        (In many modern/recent books by serious scholars the clearly mixed (non-Greek) populations that were settled in Lacedaemon/Laconia are described simply as Greek! This is just one example.)
                        As I have stated in a previous post and other threads Byzantine or Eastern Roman History is a passion of mine and I’ll be definitely buying this book.
                        The Eastern Roman Empire was Roman. The inhabitants referred to themselves as Roman. Greek was the language used for administrative purposes much as Latin was used throughout the original Roman Empire for administrative purposes.
                        The Greek propaganda that Constantinople was/is a Greek city. Granted it was originally founded as Greek city by Greek settlers but when Constantine relocated the capital of the original Roman Empire from Rome to the original Greek colony of Byzantium and renamed it Constantinople it became Roman in identity
                        It is only Greek propaganda that the Eastern Roman Empire was Greek. The Greek mentality being that if you speak/ spoke Greek you must be Greek. Apply the Greek line of reasoning/ propaganda to say for example Australia. English is the official language in Australia so everyone must be English despite Australia being a very multicultural country. Hypothetically Substitute the official language of Australia from English to Greek and by Greek reasoning we who live here must be Greek because we speak Greek.

                        Comment

                        • Liberator of Makedonija
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 1595

                          Originally posted by Spirit View Post
                          As I have stated in a previous post and other threads Byzantine or Eastern Roman History is a passion of mine and I’ll be definitely buying this book.
                          The Eastern Roman Empire was Roman. The inhabitants referred to themselves as Roman. Greek was the language used for administrative purposes much as Latin was used throughout the original Roman Empire for administrative purposes.
                          The Greek propaganda that Constantinople was/is a Greek city. Granted it was originally founded as Greek city by Greek settlers but when Constantine relocated the capital of the original Roman Empire from Rome to the original Greek colony of Byzantium and renamed it Constantinople it became Roman in identity
                          It is only Greek propaganda that the Eastern Roman Empire was Greek. The Greek mentality being that if you speak/ spoke Greek you must be Greek. Apply the Greek line of reasoning/ propaganda to say for example Australia. English is the official language in Australia so everyone must be English despite Australia being a very multicultural country. Hypothetically Substitute the official language of Australia from English to Greek and by Greek reasoning we who live here must be Greek because we speak Greek.
                          Even then you can argue against naming of that language as "Greek" given it was known natively as Ρωμαίικα/Romaika a.k.a Romaic (Roman)
                          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                          Comment

                          • tchaiku
                            Member
                            • Nov 2016
                            • 786

                            Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                            I don't know much about this idea/claim. Is there a link to an article/book where I can read more about it?

                            (I am interested in reading about it, but I have a hard time believing and accepting that any modern nationalisms started prior to the 18th-19th c.)
                            Well I mean it in that sense that Greek speakers started considering themselves Greeks, the aristocracy of the Eastern Roman empire.

                            Comment

                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332

                              Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                              Well I mean it in that sense that Greek speakers started considering themselves Greeks, the aristocracy of the Eastern Roman empire.
                              Kaldellis debunked this idea/theory: it was a class, not a national, identity.




                              The Byzantines (who were Romans) even called themselves Ausones/Ausonians on occasion!

                              Last edited by Carlin; 10-24-2018, 08:16 PM.

                              Comment

                              • VMRO
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1462

                                Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                                Kaldellis debunked this idea/theory: it was a class, not a national, identity.




                                The Byzantines (who were Romans) even called themselves Ausones/Ausonians on occasion!

                                I have both books in PDF if you want them
                                Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

                                Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

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