Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC)

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  • Albo
    Member
    • May 2014
    • 304

    If the law is Gazetted and put into practice, then yes it would be a second official state language. The law requires that every single document produced by the state, be in both Macedonian and Albanian
    Since when does this mean that the Albanian language is fully official? Producing multi lingual state documents is far from making a language official ...

    Albanian can only be classified as fully offical when it has parity with the Macedonian language at all levels and the constitution states it... Albanian has not become official.. it's use has been endanced.. yes.. and there are also elements of officialisation .. but its far from being and Official language of the state..

    That is why we assert that the law is unconstitutional!
    That isn only in the competencies of the the Constitutional Court..

    It is not false, it has been stated as a foreign policy goal by the current administration in Albania. Some time ago the Albanian premier even went as far claiming credit for it, in public!
    Rama was asked to get involved once the Albanian parties couldn't come together and agree to a joint platform after the elections...
    This was never. "TIRANA PLATFORM" as the media kept repeating.. the platform and demands were all part of or have been part of the platforms of Albanian parties from Macedonia since independence... Tirana played the middle man to get all parties on board..

    Of course the cost of producing every single state document in both languages will be excessive, not to mention all the translators and interpreters that will need to be hired in numerous other situations.
    Nobody know the total cost as I said.. the money can be found ..if hundreds of millions can be found for statues and boats in projects like "Skopje 2014" then a couple million shouldn't be a problem..

    You make absolutely no sense here with this comment.
    What doesn't make sense exactly??
    Its a fact that the term "Albanian Language" doesn't exist in the law!!

    We say "around" 20%, because nobody knows what the precise figure is, as there has not been a census since 2002!
    Exactly the reason why you go by the last STATE OFFICAL FIGURES where Albanians are said to be 25% of the population... Until new figures are available..

    Unlike Macedonians in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania, the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia, already possess all the linguistic rights they need to lead a normal functional life.
    I'm sorry but it's not up to you to decide at what level our linguistic rights are "enough" for us on our ancestral land..

    We are entitled to full rights for a number or historical and political reasons.. both communities are the landlords and not where one is the landlord and the other the "kiradzija" ( tenant ).. and always must ask for permission for something that is widely available in many European democratic countries.

    Moreover, this unnecessary law is obviously part of a long term separatist agenda in the minds of a very substantial number of Albanian nationalists.
    There are separatist and nationalist is every single ethinc group including Macedonians who dream of a Greater or Unified Macedonia.. I don't see how the mindset of different balkan peoples varies much on this topic..

    The reality is (and I believe this has been discussed here in the past) that state borders for balkan countries never have been never will be decided by the people of the region.. so if one day borders change..it won't be because Albanians want them to or Serbs or Macedonians or greeks ect ..want them to.. it will be due to the fact that the big boys want them to.. we are all pawns.. we can only play the best game to our capabilities..
    So in my opinion.. Macedonia as a state isn't going anywhere.. we all simply need to continue to work together and respect each others differences and requests.. because if nothing happens soon (economically). RoM will become empty of population..

    That would depend on the specifics of the context.
    What specifics whould you need to come out and say.. No my fellow Macedonians.. "we don't want that enhanced status for our language.. we can't be like the Albanians and ask so much of Eg. Greece, Bulgaria, Albania) we need to reduce our demands!"

    Would you ever release a statement that the Macedonian minority in x country is demanding too much.. we condem it?

    I think not..
    But you expect Albanians to come out and say.. no we don't deserve this law?

    your position is untenable, there are substantial parts of Albania, where even the existence of Macedonians is still officially denied; so throwing up this question is simply an attempt to remove the discussion from reality.
    My position is very attainable.. we aren't talking about Albania here..
    The reason why Macedonians in Albania don't have as many language rights is also a fault of there own..
    Apart from the Macedonians in Prespa the others who you mention in eg..golobrdo and gora, Many flirt with the idea that they have a Bulgarian or Gorani identity.. and aren't really politically organised with a united voice..

    I fully support all Macedonians in Albania receiving full language rights regardless of where they live..

    Albanians in Bitola who now make about 4-5% of the Bitola region similar in percentage and number to the
    Macedonians of the Korca region dream to have the language rights that exits in Pustec for a minority..

    Albanians in Bitola, Prespa/Resen, Ohrid, Veles, Prilep, Demir hisar, (who make up about 10,000-15,000 people) have zero language rights at the local level apart from Education.. Administratively they have zero language use rights)
    Would you as a human rights organisiation support these groups who are a Minority within a Minority and who's language and culture are most at risk to have the right to express themselves in their own mother tongue? In dealings with the state?

    Comment

    • AMHRC
      De-registered
      • Sep 2009
      • 919

      [QUOTE=Albo;172523]Since when does this mean that the Albanian language is fully official? Producing multi lingual state documents is far from making a language official ...

      Albanian can only be classified as fully offical when it has parity with the Macedonian language at all levels and the constitution states it... Albanian has not become official.. it's use has been endanced.. yes.. and there are also elements of officialisation .. but its far from being and Official language of the state..

      You are either being intentionally devious or you have not actually read the new language law. Here are three key points in that "law":

      (1) The entire territory of the Republic of Macedonia and in its international relations the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic alphabet is the official language.

      (2) Another language spoken by at least 20% of the citizens (Albanian language) is also an official language and its script, in accordance with this law.

      (3) In all organs of state power in the Republic of Macedonia, central institutions, public enterprises, agencies, directorates, institutions and organizations, commissions, legal entities that perform public authorizations in accordance with law and other institutions, an official language in addition to the Macedonian language and its script is the language spoken by 20% of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia and its script, in a manner defined by this Law.


      Where as Article 7 in the constitution states that there is only one official state language:


      Article 7: The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language in the Republic of Macedonia.

      Therefore the law is most definitely unconstitutional and the CC shall so rule, if it functions objectively.



      That isn only in the competencies of the the Constitutional Court..

      Your answer to this, is as above.



      Rama was asked to get involved once the Albanian parties couldn't come together and agree to a joint platform after the elections...
      This was never. "TIRANA PLATFORM" as the media kept repeating.. the platform and demands were all part of or have been part of the platforms of Albanian parties from Macedonia since independence... Tirana played the middle man to get all parties on board..



      Nobody know the total cost as I said.. the money can be found ..if hundreds of millions can be found for statues and boats in projects like "Skopje 2014" then a couple million shouldn't be a problem..

      I will not bother repeating what I stated in relation to Rama, it is a fact and that's all there is to it. The cost is definitely going to be exorbitant. Moreover, we do not support the corrupt wastage of money by any government in Macedonia, in any sphere and we have made that clear in numerous articles in our magazine, the MHR Review.


      What doesn't make sense exactly??
      Its a fact that the term "Albanian Language" doesn't exist in the law!!

      This is ridiculous semantics, it exists in law and practice. Moreover, the new law, will make it a co-official language of the state, as is stated in the law itself, we quoted it above.


      Exactly the reason why you go by the last STATE OFFICAL FIGURES where Albanians are said to be 25% of the population... Until new figures are available..

      As we previously pointed out, official state figures from 2002 are worthless. Unlike you however, we admit that we are making an estimate. Moreover 75% of the population paying for something that is unnecessary and unconstitutional, is still wrong.


      I'm sorry but it's not up to you to decide at what level our linguistic rights are "enough" for us on our ancestral land..

      We are entitled to full rights for a number or historical and political reasons.. both communities are the landlords and not where one is the landlord and the other the "kiradzija" ( tenant ).. and always must ask for permission for something that is widely available in many European democratic countries.

      It is not widely available in Europe, as we already pointed out, Albanians have more more rights than almost any other European minority in this regard and more than enough to lead a normal life. Seeing as you have brought up Europe, then you should know that this law goes far beyond what is specified in the European Framework

      The rest of what you wrote in your response does not warrant a response from us, it offered no facts, but simply ethno-centric opinion and irrelevant rhetoric.
      Last edited by AMHRC; 03-20-2018, 02:19 AM.

      Comment

      • Albo
        Member
        • May 2014
        • 304

        You are either being intentionally devious or you have not actually read the new language law. Here are three key points in that "law":*

        (1) The entire territory of the Republic of Macedonia and in its international relations the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic alphabet is the official language.
        Ok so there you have it.. for a language to be classified fully official Albanian would also be allowed in international relations, all border crossings (not only at border crossings where Albanians are over 20%)

        At the local level it would be official within all dealings and documentation of all municipalities eg.(as is Serbian in kosovo - even if zero serbs live in that municipality )and not only central state officers.


        So do you agree that there are limitations on the use of Albanian? and its not fully official as your organisation. falsely claim?

        I will not bother repeating what I stated in relation to Rama, it is a fact and that's all there is to it.*
        Its not a fact.. its an opinion.. the language law was part of the OA .. it should have been past by 2004 as was its deadline... at that time Rama was mayor of Tirana and had no idea of Albanian language use rights in RoM..

        *is definitely going to be exorbitant
        You don't know the actual cost.. nobody does... have you been to Macedonia.. you would have seem exorbitant amounts have been spent on many worse projects than this..

        It is not widely available in Europe, as we already pointed out, Albanians have more more rights than almost any other European minority in this regard and more than enough to lead a normal life. Seeing as you have brought up Europe, then you should know that this law goes far beyond what is specified in the European Framework*
        "Almost any European Minority"
        Well it depends which example states you want to use in your argument.. if you want to compare with Baltic countries fine.. if you belive that a people shouldn't strive to be truly equal in their ancestral lands thats your opinion..

        I belive that in the 21st century to be rallying and beating your chest behind a cause that denies and restricts people who's key unique characteristic is its language is far from anything a respectable human rights organisation should belive in...

        I can understand if you have a problem with the legality of the law..fine.. but to deny a people the right to eg.. speak to a doctor in his or her mother tongue on the lands where he/she lives and ancestors have lived which takes nothing away from you using your language in anyway whatsoever is sad..

        Again I ask.. would you not support and lobby agains this law if it was applied for Macedonians in neighboring states??

        Comment

        • AMHRC
          De-registered
          • Sep 2009
          • 919

          1. The proposed law clearly states that Albanian will become "official" along side Macedonian. It clearly states that the language will be used in every sphere within the state, by the state. Your mentioning that it probably wont be used in international relations, is a dishonest attempt to legitimise the law. So we do not agree.

          2. And for you to write this, is a really "sad" attempt to deceive the readers of this forum: "but to deny a people the right to eg.. speak to a doctor in his or her mother tongue on the lands where he/she lives and ancestors have lived which takes nothing away from you using your language in anyway whatsoever is sad..".

          Albanians already have this right and you know it. Not to mention, that any ethnic Albanian should have no difficulty in using the official language of the state, in a doctor's office or anywhere else.

          It is clear that you are not here for an objective discussion. The Albanian government even denies the existence of Macedonians in various parts of Albania, but you have nothing to say about that. Your double standards are plain for everyone to see.

          There is no chance of Macedonian becoming an official state language in any other country and you know it. However, if this proposed new law is accepted by the Constitutional Court, then of course, one could argue that all minority languages in all countries should be accepted as official state languages, to be used by the state in all spheres except international relations.

          But the point is that it is not practical, it leads to dysfunction and division. It is the lot of all minorities to learn at least two languages - their mother tongue and the official language of the state they reside in. That is actually European policy, for the good reason that it leads to the development of a more functional and integrated society.
          Last edited by AMHRC; 03-22-2018, 07:19 PM.

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            Albo, please never use Kosovo as an example of how to do things. Whatever rights Serbs have is a joke and a nod to the gross violation to the sovereignty of the Serbian nation.

            Macedonia is not Serbia. Albanians have tried to portray it as such. But the reality is totally different. And you know it. So why play this game here?
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • mklion
              Member
              • Jun 2014
              • 100

              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
              Albo, please never use Kosovo as an example of how to do things. Whatever rights Serbs have is a joke and a nod to the gross violation to the sovereignty of the Serbian nation.

              Macedonia is not Serbia. Albanians have tried to portray it as such. But the reality is totally different. And you know it. So why play this game here?
              Albanians complain all the time that the serbs get too many "rights" even though they are a small percentage of the population. What a hypocritical shit show lol

              Comment

              • Phoenix
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2008
                • 4671

                Originally posted by mklion View Post
                Albanians complain all the time that the serbs get too many "rights" even though they are a small percentage of the population. What a hypocritical shit show lol
                The shiptari are a joke and the proof is the clown that loiters aimlessly around here...How can you possibly take the shiptari seriously when they whine incessantly about their downtrodden human rights or their lack of economic prosperity when they already have Albania and Kosovo under their own control and yet both places are cesspools of human rights abuses, rampant corruption, lawlessness and economic basket cases...

                I'd just love to see a single beam of light emanating from either Albania, Kosovo or the shiptar community in Macedonia to lead us all out of the darkness...because this is exactly how this deluded dickhead likes to portray the situation, as some sort of blight against his people at the hands of Macedonians and Serbs.

                The Kosovo shiptari have (had) a unique opportunity to lead by example but they've chosen the more lucrative path of narco-commerce, organ harvesting, child prostitution rings, medieval blood feuds and other barbaric evils...rather than mundane pursuits like 21st century nation building and upholding the rule of law...

                Comment

                • VMRO
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1462

                  To be honest, out of all the ethnic groups in the Balkans, the Albanians are by far the most nationalistic and radical of the lot, nobody compares to them and their backwardness.

                  I'm not saying all the Albanians but many in Kosovo practice idolatry with their UCK commanders and their fascination with Guns and paramilitary, crime and other gangs.

                  Their nationalism/radicalism is at it's peak, it's a scary thought that their institutions promote these types of education.
                  Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

                  Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

                  Comment

                  • AMHRC
                    De-registered
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 919

                    GENERAL CALL OUT: the Macedonian Human Rights Review magazine is approaching ten years of age. http://www.macedonianhr.org.au/content/amhrc-review In order to ensure its continuation, we are looking for new contributors qualified in the humanities and social sciences, if you are interested, please contact the AMHRC: [email protected]

                    Comment

                    • AMHRC
                      De-registered
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 919

                      MHR Review #30

                      MHR Review #30

                      Just released and free to download here: http://www.macedonianhr.org.au/contents/218

                      Inside this issue:


                      *AMHRC Statement on the Name Agreement
                      *Проглас II Апел до Македонската Јавност
                      *About the Name Agreement - George Vlahov
                      *Nationalist Mobilisation in Greece - Dr. Dimitar Vamvakovski
                      *EFA Declaration on Macedonian Minorities
                      *Macedonia's Amnesty Laws - Dr. Vasko Nastevski
                      *The MPL & Pirinsky - Victor Sinadinoski
                      *A Life in the Wild Blue Yonder - Dr. Michael Seraphinoff
                      *Interview with DJ Mike Steva - John Tsiglev
                      *Victorian Government Grant for Macedonian Cultural Centre - MOCMV

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        A great read.
                        Actually, an essential read in relation to the treasonous Prespa agreement.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • AMHRC
                          De-registered
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 919

                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          A great read.
                          Actually, an essential read in relation to the treasonous Prespa agreement.
                          Thanks Risto.

                          Comment

                          • AMHRC
                            De-registered
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 919

                            A slightly truncated/edited version of the editorial was published in the mainstream Macedonian media in June:

                            Во текстот „За Колбе, за името и за договорот“, македонскиот активист Ѓорѓи Влахов регира на текст на македонскиот публицист Кица Колбе која што го брани договорот а кој јавно го пофали премиерот Заев, вели дека работите требда не се поедноставуваат туку да се анализира сета комплексност на состојбите. Целата анализа на Влахов: Во врска со […]

                            Comment

                            • Liberator of Makedonija
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 1595

                              Any idea why the second part was never written?
                              I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                              Comment

                              • Amphipolis
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 1328

                                Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                                Any idea why the second part was never written?
                                According to his website, Vol II had finished by 2015 and was under translation in English, while the first chapters were published in Greek in Nova Zora.

                                You can see e-mail and facebook page here, though most material is in Greek.

                                Comment

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