Muslims in Balkan Should Promote Europe of Peace and Hope

[Philosopher]

They worship a different god? In what perspective? Allah means simply god in arabic.
Enemies of the Jews and the Christians? When? At the time of Mohamed. When the lesser Jihad was taking place.

Spitfire, you have a proclivity to add words or infer ideas not found in people's original posts. Note I did not write Muslims worship a different god because they worship Allah. I know what the word Allah means. The issue here is not the meaning of the word Allah. The god Muslims worship is not the God of the Christians. Christians worship one God in three persons – Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Muslims reject the trinity as polytheism. Christians worship Jesus Christ as God. Muslims do not worship Jesus Christ. They worship a different god.

In the Old and New Testaments, God bears testimony to the coming of Jesus Christ, who is called in the Old Testament the “Mighty God”. In the New Testament, Jesus is known as “Jehovah”. Yet, in the Quran Allah denies all of this.

The Jews and the Chrisitans are not considered infidels. They are considered believers of God, but mislead believers. Therefore they are respected.

Yes, but Muslims also see Christians as polytheists, which is a grave sin in the eyes of Allah. Muslims also believe in converting by the mouth of the sword.

Yes, so? The Christians deny Islam altogether.

Absolutely. This is because Islam is a different religion with a different set of central tenants. According to the Bible, Mohamed was a false prophet and he is in Hell. And Islam is a false religion.

The Quran also is prophesied in the Bible. And one of the prophesies is that God will put His words in to the mouth of this prophet and that he will declare what God commands him.
Which is the Quran exactly!

Absolutely false. This is a mythology created by ignorant Muslims. There is no passage anywhere in the Bible that prophecies Mohamed or Islam.

All prophesies combined make a Mohamed and his actions also.

Spitfire, I can only assume you are a Muslim, for no Christian, no true Christian, can believe what you believe.

As I said already, Everything forward is regarded foreign. No surprise there.
But I see that you are seing this the way most westerners do. That you hold the truth and not somebody else.

False. This is not a West vs East debate. Foreign or domestic. This is strictly a debate about the central tenants of these monotheistic religions.

What do you think of the german belt buckle?

I could not care in the slightest.

That's the modern view. In the past the arabs saw Christianity as a heresy of what they believe.
And really, the central idea is exactly the same.
All three religions are of Abrahamic descent and they speak about the same thing.

They do not speak about the same thing. And the central idea of these religions is very different.

Even now, if you ask a christian certain things, he won't know the answer. For example, when do we go to paradise exactly. Is it right after we die?

Based on the words of Christ on the cross, the thief was to be in paradise the same today. Based on the writings of the book of Hebrews, it is appointed for man once to die and then judgment.

[spitfire]

Spitfire, you have a proclivity to add words or infer ideas not found in people's original posts. Note I did not write Muslims worship a different god because they worship Allah. I know what the word Allah means. The issue here is not the meaning of the word Allah. The god Muslims worship is not the God of the Christians. Christians worship one God in three persons – Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Muslims reject the trinity as polytheism. Christians worship Jesus Christ as God. Muslims do not worship Jesus Christ. They worship a different god.

It's the same god Philosopher. It is an abrahamic religion. This is self-evident, no matter how the other side tries to differentiate. Three monotheistic religions from the same area also with the same concept.

In the Old and New Testaments, God bears testimony to the coming of Jesus Christ, who is called in the Old Testament the “Mighty God”. In the New Testament, Jesus is known as “Jehovah”. Yet, in the Quran Allah denies all of this.

No Allah does not deny all these. It is specifically said that it was Allah who sent them. But as the Quran is the real word of God (for muslims) it is stated that they were sent dfferently. Again try to think this as a trilogy. If you don't then Christianity is false according to the Jews.

Yes, but Muslims also see Christians as polytheists, which is a grave sin in the eyes of Allah. Muslims also believe in converting by the mouth of the sword.

No they don't, they see them as true believers of God, though they are misled.

Absolutely. This is because Islam is a different religion with a different set of central tenants. According to the Bible, Mohamed was a false prophet and he is in Hell. And Islam is a false religion.

In this sense, catholicism is a different religion to orthodoxy because of filioque alone. Let alone the fact that the holy trinity has become a holy trinity and a half because of Mary.

Absolutely false. This is a mythology created by ignorant Muslims. There is no passage anywhere in the Bible that prophecies Mohamed or Islam.

Absolutely true. There are quite a lot actually.

Spitfire, I can only assume you are a Muslim, for no Christian, no true Christian, can believe what you believe.

No. I am an orthodox Christian. That doesn't mean I don't study.

False. This is not a West vs East debate. Foreign or domestic. This is strictly a debate about the central tenants of these monotheistic religions.

Explained earlier.

I could not care in the slightest.

Of course. You are not obliged to care. However this proves that religions are only used for whatever purpose regardless of their meaning. I can assure you that the germans felt they were doing divine work, when they were killing their enemies. Absolutely on the spot of the sense of christianic "love".

They do not speak about the same thing. And the central idea of these religions is very different.

They do. It's about the saving of human soul. All three of them.

Based on the words of Christ on the cross, the thief was to be in paradise the same today. Based on the writings of the book of Hebrews, it is appointed for man once to die and then judgment.

Lovely. Now tell us according to the Holy tradition, which holds the place of faith equally as the faith because it explains the faith, what happens for the rest of the world and not that single case.

Are you aware of the horror that awaits you before you go to paradise or hell? Are you aware of when will you go to paradise or hell? It's after everybody dies on the day of judgement which is another horror.
I really think you haven't the slightest idea. Do you know why Unction is so important, actually the whole meaning of faith? It's because your soul on the third day after death is going to face horrors unspeakable of and all that before you go to the judgement day.
And the horrors in case you make it to the judgement day is also described in Islam mate. That's only in case you make it to paradise. Because if you don't then there are no words to describe the next horror wich is to the end of time.

So don't give me that christian or muslim or what am I. I am very aware of what I am. I am someone who is an orthodox christian but aware of my "religion" in all its extend and connections to other religions.

[Philosopher]

It's the same god Philosopher. It is an abrahamic religion. This is self-evident, no matter how the other side tries to differentiate. Three monotheistic religions from the same area also with the same concept.

Islam worships a different god. Period.

No Allah does not deny all these. It is specifically said that it was Allah who sent them. But as the Quran is the real word of God (for muslims) it is stated that they were sent dfferently. Again try to think this as a trilogy. If you don't then Christianity is false according to the Jews.

Yes, Allah denies these. In the Quran, Allah denies Jesus is God and Christianity is seen as polytheism.

Who do you believe Spitfire? Both accounts cannot be true. Was Jesus God? If so, the Quran is wrong. Did Jesus die on the cross? If so, Allah and the Quran are wrong. Did Jesus die for the sins of his church? If so, then Allah is wrong.

If Allah and the Quran are wrong, then how can the Quran be part of this “trilogy” you speak of?

Who do you believe?

No they don't, they see them as true believers of God, though they are misled.

No devout Muslim believes a Trinity worshiping Christian is going to heaven. They are guilty of polytheism. And they are guilty of worshiping a man, Jesus.

In this sense, catholicism is a different religion to orthodoxy because of filioque alone. Let alone the fact that the holy trinity has become a holy trinity and a half because of Mary.

No, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not different religions, but different interpretations of the same Christian religion. They have disagreements, but they both believe in the Old and New Testaments; they both believe in the Trinity; they both believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ; they both believe he came to the world to save people from their sins; they both believe there is redemption in the blood of Christ.

Catholicism may exalt Mary, and this is true, and while I reject Catholicism, I would not place Catholicism in the same category as Islam.

Islam is a different religion with a different holy book and a different god.

Absolutely true. There are quite a lot actually.

Can you please cite Old and New Testament passages that prophecy of the coming of Mohamed and Islam? And can you please explain to me why the Quran contradicts the teachings of the Old and New Testaments?

No. I am an orthodox Christian. That doesn't mean I don't study.

I am not against studying anything, including Islam. I think this is good. The problem we have here, however, is that you believe Islam and Christianity hold to the same central tenants, which is easily proved not to be the case.

Of course. You are not obliged to care. However this proves that religions are only used for whatever purpose regardless of their meaning. I can assure you that the germans felt they were doing divine work, when they were killing their enemies. Absolutely on the spot of the sense of christianic "love".

No. I don't care because this has nothing to do with the Bible and it has nothing to do with the differences in the central tenants of Christianity and Islam.

They do. It's about the saving of human soul. All three of them.

Spitfire, do you believe Muslims go to heaven?

Are you aware of the horror that awaits you before you go to paradise or hell? Are you aware of when will you go to paradise or hell? It's after everybody dies on the day of judgement which is another horror.

This is mythology. The true believers, the saved and elect of God, do not await horrors before they go to paradise. According to the clear passage in Scripture, Jesus told the thief on the cross, that “verily today thou shalt be in paradise...” There is nothing in the New Testament that teaches that the elect of God, the saved, await horrors on their journey to heaven.

Spitfire, you are basing these opinions on church tradition, and not in Scripture. There is nothing in Scripture that suggests this or states this.

I really think you haven't the slightest idea.

You are free to entertain this thought.

[spitfire]

The statement that you don't recognise anything else than the scriptures makes you ignorant Philosopher.
According to Orthodox Christianity, it's the scriputres and the holy tradition that constitute the faith. 23 leagions of deamons await you prior to you judjement. I don't know the english term. They are called Τελώνια (Telonia) in Greek. This is exactly why the mystery of Unction is the most important in Christianity. Three days after you die. Everything in order to pass that test. After that you are left to the judgement of God. No prayer of the living can help you there, because there will be no one living when Judgement day happens.

This is tradition. Equal to the scriptures because it explains the scriptures. Therefore Holy Tradition.

The thief on the cross is an exception. And the reason is that God decided that (Christ).

I don't think we can move on from here, other than everything I said about Islam, goes. Ask any muslim you want, or read the Quran and Hadith (holy tradition to the muslims) to see for yourself. You will find that we are not as different as you think in your standardised western view of things.
This is what upsets me more to be frank. Not some shitty difference in faith.

[George S.]

The reason why the muslims hate us is not so much as religion but they are told that they must dominate the world go out and do it for allah.Everyone goes on about how its the same religion its not i told you jesus according to them is not gods son.They go on that they must prove themselves and die a martyr where they will be met by 70 vitgins in heaven?? you beleive thast you'll beleive anything.That is why they are so fervent beleivers.

[George S.]

You know the quiran is simply derived from the torah the jewish old testament.Mohamed got the torah and ripped it up it was on scrollsand picked up the pieces and wrote it on bones and leather parchmentsetc So the muslims have got a narrow view of the world.Guys just remember i have studied comparative religion for a long time and that makes me an old person but young at heart.

[spitfire]

The reason why the muslims hate us is not so much as religion but they are told that they must dominate the world go out and do it for allah.Everyone goes on about how its the same religion its not i told you jesus according to them is not gods son.They go on that they must prove themselves and die a martyr where they will be met by 70 vitgins in heaven?? you beleive thast you'll beleive anything.That is why they are so fervent beleivers.

You know the quiran is simply derived from the torah the jewish old testament.Mohamed got the torah and ripped it up it was on scrollsand picked up the pieces and wrote it on bones and leather parchmentsetc So the muslims have got a narrow view of the world.Guys just remember i have studied comparative religion for a long time and that makes me an old person but young at heart.

George, the muslims don't "hate us". It's mostly uncles and aunts wanting to share faimily moments with their nephews. The bloody arse ISIS that claim they serve God's will are breaking the laws of Islam. They are simply murderers.

Let's face a fact with regard to Judaism. The Jews have the advantage to claim their religion as an original. As a physical one. We cannot, the muslims cannot either because of the abrahamic descent. So there will always be a problem with the recognition of who is right and who is wrong.
And with that said, everything is a matter of interpretation of the message of religions. Islam is about saving your soul and the best way is through good deed.

But I can't stand the idea of someone being superior to the other because he claims god for himself.
And at the same time not understand that he accepts a succession of bishops that are not mentioned in the scripture because it is based on the holy tradition of his faith, which is his faith by default.

[Philosopher]

The statement that you don't recognise anything else than the scriptures makes you ignorant Philosopher.

Wrong Spitfire. It does not make me ignorant. I recognize church tradition, but not on equal footing with Scripture. You recognize both equally. We disagree.

According to Orthodox Christianity, it's the scriputres and the holy tradition that constitute the faith. 23 leagions of deamons await you prior to you judjement. I don't know the english term. They are called Τελώνια (Telonia) in Greek. This is exactly why the mystery of Unction is the most important in Christianity. Three days after you die. Everything in order to pass that test. After that you are left to the judgement of God. No prayer of the living can help you there, because there will be no one living when Judgement day happens.

This is tradition. Equal to the scriptures because it explains the scriptures. Therefore Holy Tradition.

I understand all of this. I disagree that tradition is equal to Scriptures.

The thief on the cross is an exception. And the reason is that God decided that (Christ).

There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that this was an exception. There is nothing in Scripture to corroborate anything you wrote above. This is tradition. A person's salvation does not depend on Unction.

I don't think we can move on from here, other than everything I said about Islam, goes. Ask any muslim you want, or read the Quran and Hadith (holy tradition to the muslims) to see for yourself. You will find that we are not as different as you think in your standardised western view of things.
This is what upsets me more to be frank. Not some shitty difference in faith.

Spitfire, I do not have a problem with Muslims. I disagree with them theologically. They disagree with me theologically. You and I disagree as well. We are all entitled to believe what we want and freely practice what we believe.

St Paul taught in the Epistle to the Galatians that he who teaches a different gospel other than the one the apostles taught was anathematized. The gospel Mohamed taught in the Quran is different than the gospel taught by St. Paul and the apostles. By definition, Mohamed is anathematized.

We cannot both believe the Quran and the Bible, for they contradict themselves. If you believe the Quran, then you have to pick and choose parts of the New Testament and reject the rest. This is what Muslims do. Muslims only believe portions of the New Testament that are consistent with the Quran and reject the rest. This is absurd.

Islam is a different religion and it teaches worship of a different god, and has a very different idea of salvation.

[spitfire]

Philosopher. In a doctrine you just don't disagree. If you disagree you are a heretic.
That's the way it is with doctrines. For someone who is orthodox, the tradition is faith.
Do you go to the church? Where is the name of the priest who performs the liturgy in the scriptures? Where is the name of the bishop?

This scripture sticking without the holy tradition is what Jehoba's witnesses do. Not that I have a problem even if it was about supporters of olympiacos, but this is not the orthodox doctrine.

We have a clear dissagreement for Islam. I say that the main idea is the same. Probably this is fundamental to our discussion. I am not saying it's the same. I'm talking about the main idea which is not different, and that the muslims are deamonised in the eyes of the westerners, although their religion is by far the one with the most slayers. Not to be attributed to Christianity of course, but also not to be attributed to Islam, as the religion of... the bad guys.

[spitfire]

A person's salvation does not depend on Unction.

Just to show you how wrong you are. This is one of the 7 holy mysteries. The third day someone dies it is performed. Do you know why is it performed and why is it so important on the third day?
Because its a prayer for the salvation of the soul, which starts exactly at the third day its horrific trip through those 23 legions of deamons.

According to the orthodox doctrine this is capable of helping the soul. According to the orthodox doctrine this has helped souls in this test to pass it!

Do you understand now the place of tradition in the orthodox faith? These details are not in the scriptures. They are on other scriptures/decisions/traditions that constitute the faith because they explain the faith. They stem from the scriptures therefore they are faith, by default!

[Nikolaj]

Naive is someone who doesn't see that religion is twisted for purposes other than the intentions of the religion.

What do you think of this for example?

It was the buckle of every german soldier during WWII.

What is your point with the buckle? Please explain.

[spitfire]

What is your point with the buckle? Please explain.

That everyone can use religion believing he acts in the will of god doing something good, when in fact he is doing the opposite.
When it comes to arabs, their religion is considered a bad thing by default. How can it be a bad thing by default? Because it is twisted in order to be used? That's exactly what happend with Christianity big time and nobody says it is a bad thing by default.

[Nikolaj]

That everyone can use religion believing he acts in the will of god doing something good, when in fact he is doing the opposite.

You were referring to WWII and Hitler...

- Hitler was not a religious man, he was motivated by Darwinism - survival of the fittest, to remove races who appeared subpar to him.
- He manipulated the Christian faith and altered important things in the Bible to brainwash people to believe what he was doing was acceptable.
- This is only a theory, but a widely accepted one for the reoccurring evidence supporting it, his discussions of Science, and the way he manipulates the religion of his population which is clearly unreligious.
- If you know a thing or two about Christianity, you would know you can't just do bad things which are strictly opposed by it and expect to get away with it by saying it's under the will of God.
- Which brings us back to the question, was it really under the will of God and in reference to the religion, or simply...corruption.

- Corruption in religion does not mean the religion is bad, just those people specifically, which is unrelated to the religion itself, clearly.
- Look at corruption in catholicism, the crusades, they killed more Orthodox Christians than Muslims...
- This is clearly not an act of religion, rather wealth and power...
- The bad they did was not on behalf of the true words of the religion, as its religion directly opposes their acts.

- The Muslim bible directly supports many bad things directly where the Christian bible does not, anywhere... Hence why the acts of the negative things which Christianity has done, is clearly not on behalf of the belief, where the Muslim ones are directly on behalf of their belief.
- These things i'm talking about are just to cover an obvious misconception you have about religion, these people don't follow the religion, they just abuse it and have no faith in it at all; as shown evident in their actions.

[George S.]

spitfire you are miles of course.I'm well versed in comparative religion so you can't argue to disagree with me.You are kidding yourself again and again.You don't know how the muslim religion is .It is a man made religion.It wasn't inspired by anyone but man.Think about it how the queeran was made.Mohammed got some old testament scrolls and ripped them up and picked up certain scriptures and wrote them on bones an skin parchments.Whoopy do.He got these scriptures from the torah.So stop your bs and listen to what i say.Mans attempt to create a religion what a bunch of idiots etc.

[Nikolaj]

spitfire you are miles of course.I'm well versed in comparative religion so you can't argue to disagree with me.You are kidding yourself again and again.You don't know how the muslim religion is .It is a man made religion.It wasn't inspired by anyone but man.Think about it how the queeran was made.Mohammed got some old testament scrolls and ripped them up and picked up certain scriptures and wrote them on bones an skin parchments.Whoopy do.He got these scriptures from the torah.So stop your bs and listen to what i say.Mans attempt to create a religion what a bunch of idiots etc.

Agreed, even my Islamic doctor acknowledges the stripped similarities and obvious differences of the quaran and old testament haha.

The worst mistake of all is to generalise religion.
It's hilariously dumb to try generalise religion (e.g. Christianity and Islam), when it's even unacceptable to generalise branches of Christianity as well
It means you're ignorant towards all the history of the religions or just uneducated on the matter in general.