Macedonia Parliament Passes Law on Albanian As 2nd State Language in 1st Reading

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Albo
    Member
    • May 2014
    • 304

    #16
    So if Albanians have no problems speaking Macedonian, and can speak well and understand it, what's the purpose of the law? It was sold as "to ease communication" between Albanians and the state government, but if they can already speak Macedonian, what's the problem?
    They don't have a problem as in refusing to speak it even ig they know it.. eg. Many Albanians from Kosovo refuse to speak Serbian even if they know it.. or Agean Macedonians who refuse to speak Greek ..

    The idea is that Albanians feel as though the state isn't foreign.. but they are just as important and included as Macedonians when it comes to the use of our mother tongue!
    Most European countries which have a mixed ethinc make up have dual or multiple official languages as the norm as a form of respect for the citizens who make up the country..

    Albanians in areas where they are 1% or 5% or 10% will do so, and they will not be able to be refused if they speak in Albanian. More tax money wasted providing services to Albanians in Albanian when they can already speak Macedonian, as you already acknowledged...so why?
    Whats the issue .. Albanians pay tax also.. not only Macedonians.. our tax money will fund our interpreters when needed.. (which will be rare)

    So your saying I'm places like Bitola where Albanians are around 5% of the region they shouldn't be provided official use?

    Ok then would you say the same for the Macedonians of Mala Prespa who make up about 5% of the Korca region? Who have official Macedonian language use status!

    Should it be taken away because there are only 5000 or so of them and they make up as small percentage of the ooverall population of the region..?

    But define where they don't "historically" live...because there are a lot of places in Macedonia that they have been in the past several decades where they haven't historically been.
    Can you name me municipalities where Albanians now live in that they haven't in the past?

    And let's not kid ourselves -- coming from northwestern region of Macedonia that K(N)LA surrounded, cut water and blocked essential services to, and kidnapped and beat dozens of villagers in order to intimidate them to leave the area, I have all the proof I need to know that Albanians want to go into areas that they've never "historically" been in.*

    There is nothing more than the extremists (who aren't a small number) in your ethnic clan would like to do than have Albanians be in the majority in all municipalities from Struga to the outskirts of Skopje. And they've proved that they would use violence to do so -- using the law to do so isn't that far of a stretch, no?
    Your bringing up a time of war.. thats not the norm.. we can go back and forth till the cows come home on who did what to who.. to no evail.. eg.Tarcullovski was responsible not for cutting water or bashing somone..but for the death of civilians in luboten.. he was praised as a hero not only by the ppl but by the GOVERNMENT..

    Comment

    • vicsinad
      Senior Member
      • May 2011
      • 2337

      #17
      Originally posted by Albo View Post
      They don't have a problem as in refusing to speak it even ig they know it.. eg. Many Albanians from Kosovo refuse to speak Serbian even if they know it.. or Agean Macedonians who refuse to speak Greek ..
      Macedonians in Greece were beaten by Greek officials for using their language in the privacy of their own homes. When have Macedonian officials done that to Albanians in Macedonia? You cannot compare the two situations.

      The idea is that Albanians feel as though the state isn't foreign.. but they are just as important and included as Macedonians when it comes to the use of our mother tongue!
      I'm sure the Vlachs, Turks, Serbs, Roma and other minorities also don't want to feel like the state is foreign. So is the solution to make all of those languages official languages in the entire country?

      What about all other countries in Europe and the world?

      Most European countries which have a mixed ethinc make up have dual or multiple official languages as the norm as a form of respect for the citizens who make up the country..
      We already went through that on another thread and it was shown that those examples don't come anywhere close to the model that is proposed in Macedonia.


      Whats the issue .. Albanians pay tax also.. not only Macedonians.. our tax money will fund our interpreters when needed..
      The issue is that tax money will be used to provide services in two languages, when using two languages is not necessary, since, as you say, Albanians already speak and understand Macedonian.

      (which will be rare)
      Proof that it will be rare?

      So your saying I'm places like Bitola where Albanians are around 5% of the region they shouldn't be provided official use?
      No, it shouldn't be in official use there.

      Ok then would you say the same for the Macedonians of Mala Prespa who make up about 5% of the Korca region? Who have official Macedonian language use status!
      Macedonians have official use status in Pustec, as far as I'm aware, where 97% of the population is Macedonian. Macedonian language rights in Pustec are not the same as their rights in the whole of Korca. So you're making a terrible comparison.


      Can you name me municipalities where Albanians now live in that they haven't in the past?
      You can start with this thread:

      Hey everyone, sorry if a familiar topic has already been posted. After reading the very sad, but very real topic about the albanicisation of Macedonia, and also reading bull shit claims and justification from shiptars on why Macedonia belongs to them: mainly because they have always been in Macedonia, that I decided to



      Your bringing up a time of war.. thats not the norm.. we can go back and forth till the cows come home on who did what to who.. to no evail.. eg.Tarcullovski was responsible not for cutting water or bashing somone..but for the death of civilians in luboten.. he was praised as a hero not only by the ppl but by the GOVERNMENT.
      I'm bringing up a time of war to show that Albanians are willing to go to war to achieve their agenda of Albanianizing Macedonia. Your cries that "it's not fair to bring up a time of war" because atrocities happened on both sides has nothing do with the purpose of brining up the war.

      Comment

      • mklion
        Member
        • Jun 2014
        • 100

        #18
        My question is this and it's simple and telling . Let's make albanian an official language, make their flag official make their national anthem sung right after ours, change the cost of arms to an Albanian one etc etc.

        If we do all of these and the Albanians are still poor, uneducated, have lower socioeconomic status and still emigrate at every opportunity given to them....what will be their excuse for then? When will they aralize that THEY are the problem and not the system ?

        Comment

        • vicsinad
          Senior Member
          • May 2011
          • 2337

          #19
          Let's look at what the bill provides:


          The bill states that "throughout the territory of the Republic of Macedonia and its international relations, the official language is Macedonian in its Cyrillic script", but adds that any other language spoken by at least 20% of the citizens (ie the Albanian ) is also an official language, along with its alphabet, as defined in the bill.
          Albanian WILL be an official language, unless a census is taken and they are shown to be less than 20% of the population.

          The
          bill provides for the extension of the use of Albanian as a language spoken by more than 20% of the population at the national level:
          - in parliament (possibility to be used by the President-in-House of Parliament - plenary and committees - and bilingual practice)
          Because, despite understanding and speaking Macedonian, Albanians want to create a third Albanian government.

          - in the government (use at Ministerial Council meetings and government committees, adoption of bilingual practices and decisions)
          Because Albanians don't want to be a part of a Macedonian government; they want the government to be Albanian.

          - in justice
          Translators are already provided. Will decisions have to be rendered in both languages and not just for those who request them to be in Albanian?

          - in travel documents, with the possibility of issuing bilingual identity cards and passports, but only at the request of the person concerned.
          This will create further division, as we know many Albanians will pull them out in Albanian to show that they are Albanian and not Macedonian.

          - on the signs of the central government departments
          This subjects the majority and other minorities to a language that is not their own, on the national level, because Albanians don't want to make "Macedonia" their home.

          - on stamps
          Because Albanians can't understand the word "denari" and need to have it in Albanian to make government function fairly for all citizens.


          At the same time, the draft law provides for the extension of the use of Albanian, but also of any other language spoken by more than 20% of the population at municipal level:
          - the uniforms of police officers, firefighters, hospital staff, etc., bearing bilingual insignia,
          Serbs, Turks, Albanians, Vlachs and whoever, wherever they are 20%, can forget about learning Macedonian because they won't need to; and can forget about jointly creating a stronger Macedonian state, because they will have further ammo to focus on being different than Macedonians.

          - on the municipal office signs
          Because the Albanians have their own words for Macedonian towns, villages and cities, and don't want to go by the Macedonian names for those municipalities.

          - the names of roads, squares, bridges, public buildings, etc. that will be bilingual.
          See above (this isn't going to waste taxpayer money, whatsoever!)

          - at border corridors and airports./IBNA
          To let Kosovo and Albania Albanians know that they're entering 3rd Albania when they come into northwest Macedonia.

          Quotes taken from the following link: http://www.balkaneu.com/extension-of...-by-the-house/

          Comment

          • Starling
            Member
            • Sep 2017
            • 153

            #20
            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
            Nope. Not in Canada or Australia or USA at least. Maybe in Macedonia, but I am not sure where that is.
            I wasn't really serious about rioting. That's only a last resort when peaceful solutions are no longer available. A riot would only have a chance to accomplish anything in the relevant country. For example the US collectively deciding that if they can't redo elections to depose their treasonous and atrociously incompetent 'leader' then they'll take care of it themselves. This is why most countries have laws like impeachment or to hold early elections when the populace is dissatisfied with the people in power. In the diaspora it would be protests at the embassies, maybe the parliamentary buildings if they support the Albanians. Make it a news story that Albanian colonialism has no place in Macedonia, those laws are unconstitutional and exactly how Macedonians have been treated unequally in regards to the Albanians. That's not to say Macedonians and Albanians can't co-exist peacefully so much as the current situation favours Albanians at the expense of Macedonians. Nothing should ever start as a riot but protests tend to turn into them due police brutality or agents hired to turn it violent for political reasons.

            If it isn't already then Macedonian language classes should be compulsory in all Macedonian schools, being the native language of the country. In Canada, French is co-official with English and yet accessibility of French services are only compulsory within French communities and English is taught in all schools while French is largely optional in non French schools. This when Canada was essentially founded on French and later English colonies with a period of attempted forced assimilation of the French speakers by the English. Had France kept those colonies Canada would likely be Quebec but bigger. If English was still co-official it would be treated more like French is now.

            Bilingual signage regarding Albanian as a co-official language should only be applicable to the Albanian regions. Not all signage in Canada is bilingual. If we can't fight the status change then we can still fight the signage outside those regions.

            Regarding whether or not Macedonians will have to speak Albanian or Albanians spreading into the rest of the country, those fears aren't exactly unfounded. The thing about co-official languages is that knowing both will become a common job requirement so yes, giving people who speak both more job opportunities. Either Albanians become more prominent in the workplace, prompting more travel on their part throughout the country or more Macedonians speak Albanian, which risks eventually putting the Macedonian language in a state of attrition in its own country of origin. Providing schools that primarily teach in a particular language has a different impact than having to provide services in that language in a larger and larger part of the country and in signage. To make Albanian co-official also comes with additional implications that would fuel Albanian nationalistic attempts at claiming Macedonian land for themselves out of an over-inflated sense of entitlement.

            We can't afford to treat this as anything other than colonial encroachment by people with a proven desire to annex more land as their own.

            Albo, minority language and official language statuses are different things with different implications. You don't need to make every language spoken in a country official to provide services such as schools in regions with enough demand for it. The fact of the matter is that the political situation between Albanians and Macedonians is already disproportionately in favour of Albanians and that this will only make it worse. Had Macedonia remained whole and unmolested by the world at large attempting to erase it from existence and Albanians not been an active contributor to such antagonism then maybe things would be different.

            Comment

            • maco2envy
              Member
              • Jan 2015
              • 288

              #21
              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              Further, if "approved" by the Venice commission, Macedonians cannot avoid the Albanian language every time that currency in Albanian passes through their hands. Thus, Macedonians are essentially forced to deal in Albanian.
              Who exactly are the venice commission? Are they also EU puppets?

              Comment

              • Karposh
                Member
                • Aug 2015
                • 863

                #22
                Originally posted by Albo View Post
                Again no proof at all that this will create any form of Albanian spread to other parts of Macedonia where they don't historically live!
                Originally posted by Albo View Post
                Can you name me municipalities where Albanians now live in that they haven't in the past?
                You have some nerve Shiptar. If you are from Macedonia then you will understand me when I tell you mi gi poteche madinata with all your shiptar propaganda on this forum. The sooner you and your comrade fuck off from here, the less nauseas I will feel every time your shiptar name pops up. Seeing your user-name on this Macedonian forum is like rubbing salt in my very open Macedonian wounds at this point in time. So do us all a favour and fuck off from here. The sooner the better.

                But before you go, let's get something clear, your ancestors' marauding adventures on the peaceful and defenceless Macedonian population from 150 – 250 years ago does not qualify you, their squatting descendants, to speak of any historical presence in Macedonia. You are delusional if you really believe this.

                The fact is, only Macedonians have a right to speak about any historical presence in Macedonia and no body else. Not Albanians, not Greeks, not Bulgarians, not Serbs, nor Vlachs. All of them are new-comers to Macedonia. Don't forget, our historical presence extends into Albania as well, not just the Republic of Macedonia. Historical presence of any nation can be easily measured by the local toponyms of the land. Most, if not all your shiptar topnyms are corruptions of the original Macedonian names. Korcha is a corruption of the much older Macedonian name of that town, Gorica. The other local corruptions over the centuries include “Curceaua” by th Vlachs, Koritsa by the Greeks and Gorice by the Turks. In Italian it is Coriza.

                The historical region of Kutmichevitsa which is attested to by documents dating back to the 7th century AD stretched all the way to the Adriatic Sea. Bulgarians, of course, claim Kutmichevitsa as their own, however they were still speaking Turkish at the time and had not yet adopted the Macedonian language as their own. The inhabitants of Kutmichevitsa were all Macedonians. That is a historical presence. Everything else is a tourist visa.

                Comment

                • Stevce
                  Member
                  • Jan 2016
                  • 200

                  #23
                  This is bullshit. The country is Macedonia and the official language should be be Macedonian only. If someone wants to learn Albanian they can learn it as a second language. Also how is it not a hostile take over when you take into account that state institutions and money from now on will have Albanian symbols.

                  Comment

                  • vicsinad
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2011
                    • 2337

                    #24


                    The law on the use of the Albanian language is not a European priority, nor is part of the reforms that Macedonia should deliver to run it, as Brussels says the last kilometer of the European marathon for a clean recommendation. European Commissioner Johannes Hahn with a message to the Macedonian authorities - the law must be in accordance with the recommendations of the Venice Commission.

                    "The government and other factors in the country focus on the laws and conditions that are relevant for getting a recommendation. The law on language is not part of what has been agreed in this context, "Han said.

                    The head of state is still consulting how the solution is within the constitution to decide whether to sign the law. Ivanov says the final position will say when the law will reach his signature, but he will only be in the direction of respecting the constitutional norms.
                    "When the law is delivered, I will pronounce myself in accordance with the law and the constitution," Ivanov said.

                    The law on the use of languages ​​on Wednesday enters an amnesty hearing. Although November 22 is a non-working day, because the day of the Albanian alphabet is celebrated in the country, the MPs symbolically, as the Communist President Artan Grubi will work, he says.

                    They have three days to review all the amendments, because the law the government has proposed is a part of the European agenda and is a Vermilion flag, which means that the timing of an amnesty hearing for him is limited.
                    Interventions for the government's proposal were announced by the opposition from the Macedonian and Albanian bloc, as well as SDSM, as the SDSM Coordinator of the SDSM said, to clear the dilemmas and clarify the solution.
                    Last week, lawmakers voted the need for the law. He is part of a coalition government agreement between Zoran Zaev and Ali Ahmeti. It provides for the entire territory of the country to include the Macedonian official language, as well as the Albanian, all central government institutions, agencies and public enterprises, as well as in court post offices and post offices in the PPO

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X