Albanian language law moves to adoption

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  • Pelagonija
    Member
    • Mar 2017
    • 533

    Albanian language law moves to adoption

    Not surprised.. though very sad

    FYI article from the pro leftist anti Macedonian balkaninsight

  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #2
    Surely a census before anything else could have been negotiated.
    The country is dying a quick death.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Pelagonija
      Member
      • Mar 2017
      • 533

      #3
      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      Surely a census before anything else could have been negotiated.
      The country is dying a quick death.
      A census excluding the following persons would be a great idea:


      - Deceased Albanians
      - Albanians that emigrated 20 years ago
      - Albanians from Kosovo and Albania who are solely Macedonian citizens for nationalist and political purposes only
      - Torbeshi/Turks/Roma claiming to be Albanian during census


      Sticking to tradition they will keep the status quo and tell us that Macedonia is 40 % Albanian in order to appease their Albanian partners in parliament and pacify the Macedonia block and keep their jobs..

      We all know a real census won't benefit the sell outs and UCK

      Comment

      • Liberator of Makedonija
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 1595

        #4
        Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post
        A census excluding the following persons would be a great idea:


        - Deceased Albanians
        - Albanians that emigrated 20 years ago
        - Albanians from Kosovo and Albania who are solely Macedonian citizens for nationalist and political purposes only
        - Torbeshi/Turks/Roma claiming to be Albanian during census


        Sticking to tradition they will keep the status quo and tell us that Macedonia is 40 % Albanian in order to appease their Albanian partners in parliament and pacify the Macedonia block and keep their jobs..

        We all know a real census won't benefit the sell outs and UCK

        I've heard of Albanians intimidating Non-Albanian muslims into declaring themselves Albanian for censusess
        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

        Comment

        • Phoenix
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2008
          • 4671

          #5
          It's interesting to note that the 'beacons' of 'democracy', 'human rights' and 'transparency', namely the USA and EU have remained mute on the subject of why Macedonia hasn't conducted a census in the last 15 years...or are they still waiting for the shiptari (with their alleged procreative talents) to bridge the 10% chasm that exists between reality and a deluded but very creative imagination.

          I guess any factual statistic falling short of the mythical line in the sand, one that brings untold privilege to a minority would be a little too embarrassing for a lot of people...

          Comment

          • Pelagonija
            Member
            • Mar 2017
            • 533

            #6
            The Macedonians should demand a fair census as a top priority, not only for political purposes, though also for local planning, infrastructure and social needs. It's a circus..

            Macedonia has officially had a population of 2 million for the last 17 years. I'd say the population today is somewhere in between 1.5 and 1.7.
            Last edited by Pelagonija; 08-08-2017, 04:44 PM.

            Comment

            • mklion
              Member
              • Jun 2014
              • 100

              #7
              Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post
              The Macedonians should demand a fair census as a top priority, not only for political purposes, though also for local planning, infrastructure and social needs. It's a circus..

              Macedonia has officially had a population of 2 million for the last 17 years. I'd say the population today is somewhere in between 1.5 and 1.7.
              Does 2/3 of the Parliament need to approve the language law for it to become official? I assumed so not sure though.

              If Macedonia was to hold a census with proper methodology then the numbers would read like this

              Total Population - 175-1800000
              Macedonian 1125000 = 62.5%
              Albanian 470000 = 26%
              Turkish 70000 = 4%
              Romani 60000 = 3%
              Serbs 30000 = 1%
              All others 45000 = 2.5%


              But now with SDSM in power they will probably falsify the census again just like they did in 2002.

              Luckily for the Macedonians around 4500 Albanians emigrate per year. That's why their population has not increased to a large degree since 1994.

              Comment

              • Liberator of Makedonija
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 1595

                #8
                Originally posted by mklion View Post
                Does 2/3 of the Parliament need to approve the language law for it to become official? I assumed so not sure though.

                If Macedonia was to hold a census with proper methodology then the numbers would read like this

                Total Population - 175-1800000
                Macedonian 1125000 = 62.5%
                Albanian 470000 = 26%
                Turkish 70000 = 4%
                Romani 60000 = 3%
                Serbs 30000 = 1%
                All others 45000 = 2.5%

                Albanians 26%?! You have to be joking.
                I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                Comment

                • Niko777
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 1895

                  #9
                  The numbers are not in our favor...

                  Родени / Умрени 2010

                  Македонци: 12,535 / 14,298 (-1763)
                  Албанци: 7,200 / 3,073 (+4127)
                  Ромска: 1,306 / 457 (+849)
                  Турска: 1,000 / 450 (+550)

                  Родени / Умрени 2011

                  Македонци: 11,485 / 14,409 (-2924)
                  Албанци: 7,093 / 3,198 (+3895
                  Ромска: 1,135 / 495 (+640)
                  Турска: 1,009 / 474 (+535)

                  Родени / Умрени 2012

                  Македонци: 11,985 / 14,823 (-2838)
                  Албанци: 7,367 / 3,416 (+3951)
                  Ромска: 1,182 / 533 (+649)
                  Турска: 1,067 / 486 (+581)

                  Родени / Умрени 2013

                  Македонци: 11,602 / 14,219 (-2617)
                  Албанци: 7,488 / 3,230 (+4258)
                  Ромска: 1,226 / 493 (+733)
                  Турска: 1,080 / 441 (+639)


                  Родени / Умрени 2014

                  Македонци: 12,046 / 14,716 (-2670)
                  Албанци: 7,299 / 3,106 (+4193)
                  Ромска: 1,206 / 509 (+697)
                  Турска: 1,133 / 523 (+610)

                  Родени / Умрени 2015

                  Македонци: 12,323 / 15,163 (-2840)
                  Албанци: 7,065 / 3,402 (+3663)
                  Ромска: 979 / 479 (+500)
                  Турска: 1,068 / 466 (+602)


                  Родени / Умрени 2016

                  Македонци: 12,004 / 15,091 (-3087)
                  Албанци: 7,269 / 3,435 (+3824)
                  Ромска: 973 / 478 (+495)
                  Турска: 1,014 / 433 (+581)

                  Comment

                  • Pelagonija
                    Member
                    • Mar 2017
                    • 533

                    #10
                    Originally posted by mklion View Post
                    Does 2/3 of the Parliament need to approve the language law for it to become official? I assumed so not sure though.

                    If Macedonia was to hold a census with proper methodology then the numbers would read like this

                    Total Population - 175-1800000
                    Macedonian 1125000 = 62.5%
                    Albanian 470000 = 26%
                    Turkish 70000 = 4%
                    Romani 60000 = 3%
                    Serbs 30000 = 1%
                    All others 45000 = 2.5%


                    But now with SDSM in power they will probably falsify the census again just like they did in 2002.

                    Luckily for the Macedonians around 4500 Albanians emigrate per year. That's why their population has not increased to a large degree since 1994.
                    My understanding is that a "two thirds" majority is required. Though I believe they will massage it in sneakily.

                    Is there anywhere where we can pull data regarding Macedonian emigration and return rates for both groups?

                    Comment

                    • mklion
                      Member
                      • Jun 2014
                      • 100

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                      Albanians 26%?! You have to be joking.
                      What do you think the percentage is then?

                      Its impossible for Albanians to be lower than 20%. The reason is that they make up 32% of the births in the country (~7500 births out of 23000 born each year) and also make up around 32% of the student population in primary and lower secondary schools.

                      So the maximum capacity that they can reach over the next 50 years or so without emigration is around 1/3rd of the country in sheer numbers assuming demographic trends stay exactly the same.

                      Here is how I have determined the number of emigrants. This is just a generalization and we do not know the exact statistics because the Macedonian State Statistical office does not keep these records.

                      Macedonian primary school students
                      2006/2007: 122,016 = 53,4% share of the total
                      2007/2008: 118,507 = 53,6%
                      2008/2009: 115,605 = 53,7%
                      2009/2010: 112,293 = 53,7%
                      2010/2011: 109,765 = 54,3%
                      2011/2012: 107,564 = 54,3%
                      2012/2013: 105,648 = 54.35%
                      2013/2014: 104,254 = 54.7%
                      2014/2015: 103,036 = 54.7%
                      2015/2016: 102,644 = 55.4%

                      15.8% DECREASE in 9 years

                      Albanian primary school students
                      2006/2007: 78,467 = 34,3% share of the total
                      2007/2008: 75,141 = 34,0%
                      2008/2009: 72,570 = 33,7%
                      2009/2010: 69,922 = 33,4%
                      2010/2011: 66,156 = 32,7%
                      2011/2012: 65,085 = 32,8%
                      2012/2013: 63,483 = 32,71%
                      2013/2014: 62,118 = 32.6%
                      2014/2015: 62,012 = 32.9%
                      2015/2016: 60,127 = 32.4%

                      23.3% DECREASE in 9 years


                      If you look at the decrease in school students both Macedonians and Albanians lose around 2000 students per year on average. For the Macedonians this decrease is due to both emigration but also because Macedonians are having less kids on average (Total fertility rate of around 1.4-1.5)

                      The Albanians are emigrating as it cannot be due to population decline since they are a younger demographic and their TFR is around 2

                      So if 2000 kids leave assuming each has one mother and one father and also taking into account there could be a brother and sister with two of the same parents we can conclude that on average 2 school aged kids plus 2 parents = ~4000-4500 Albanians emigrate per year. This does not take into consideration young adults in their ~20s who leave so it could be even higher.

                      So over the next 10-15 years the Macedonian and the Albanian populations will converge as Macedonians age and Albanians large birth age demographic goes into their prime birthing years of the 20-30's, and then the Albanians population will start falling after that once deaths increase and the emigrants who have left have births outside of the country.
                      Last edited by mklion; 08-09-2017, 04:57 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Liberator of Makedonija
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2014
                        • 1595

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mklion View Post
                        What do you think the percentage is then?

                        Its impossible for Albanians to be lower than 20%. The reason is that they make up 32% of the births in the country (~7500 births out of 23000 born each year) and also make up around 32% of the student population in primary and lower secondary schools.

                        So the maximum capacity that they can reach over the next 50 years or so without emigration is around 1/3rd of the country in sheer numbers assuming demographic trends stay exactly the same.

                        Here is how I have determined the number of emigrants. This is just a generalization and we do not know the exact statistics because the Macedonian State Statistical office does not keep these records.

                        Macedonian primary school students
                        2006/2007: 122,016 = 53,4% share of the total
                        2007/2008: 118,507 = 53,6%
                        2008/2009: 115,605 = 53,7%
                        2009/2010: 112,293 = 53,7%
                        2010/2011: 109,765 = 54,3%
                        2011/2012: 107,564 = 54,3%
                        2012/2013: 105,648 = 54.35%
                        2013/2014: 104,254 = 54.7%
                        2014/2015: 103,036 = 54.7%
                        2015/2016: 102,644 = 55.4%

                        15.8% DECREASE in 9 years

                        Albanian primary school students
                        2006/2007: 78,467 = 34,3% share of the total
                        2007/2008: 75,141 = 34,0%
                        2008/2009: 72,570 = 33,7%
                        2009/2010: 69,922 = 33,4%
                        2010/2011: 66,156 = 32,7%
                        2011/2012: 65,085 = 32,8%
                        2012/2013: 63,483 = 32,71%
                        2013/2014: 62,118 = 32.6%
                        2014/2015: 62,012 = 32.9%
                        2015/2016: 60,127 = 32.4%

                        23.3% DECREASE in 9 years


                        If you look at the decrease in school students both Macedonians and Albanians lose around 2000 students per year on average. For the Macedonians this decrease is due to both emigration but also because Macedonians are having less kids on average (Total fertility rate of around 1.4-1.5)

                        The Albanians are emigrating as it cannot be due to population decline since they are a younger demographic and their TFR is around 2

                        So if 2000 kids leave assuming each has one mother and one father and also taking into account there could be a brother and sister with two of the same parents we can conclude that on average 2 school aged kids plus 2 parents = ~4000-4500 Albanians emigrate per year. This does not take into consideration young adults in their ~20s who leave so it could be even higher.

                        So over the next 10-15 years the Macedonian and the Albanian populations will converge as Macedonians age and Albanians large birth age demographic goes into their prime birthing years of the 20-30's, and then the Albanians population will start falling after that once deaths increase and the emigrants who have left have births outside of the country.
                        They were 17% at the start of the century, do not see how they could jump to 26% in that short space of time.
                        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                        Comment

                        • Phoenix
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 4671

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                          They were 17% at the start of the century, do not see how they could jump to 26% in that short space of time.
                          I trust that most posters have presented various statistics in good faith, assuming that the stats are indeed accurate...
                          Sadly, I don't think you can trust any statistics in Macedonia, particularly those relating to the size of the shiptar minority.

                          We've seen countless examples of both sides of politics involved in fraudulent activity to further their sides political ambitions.

                          I have serious doubts over the claim that the size of the shiptar minority is in the 25%+ range.
                          My suspicion is that the 2002 census was a total fabrication, engineered by outsiders to bring the shiptar terrorists of 2001 to the 'peace table'...

                          The shiptari are an opportunistic lot, just as the Tirana Platform has proven...if they were remotely close to a legitimate figure of 25% or greater they'd be running to the USA and EU demanding another census and they would be demanding them on a regular basis to legitimise their claims and further their agenda but they've always remained mute on the subject...They know that it's a logistical nightmare to bus people in from all over Europe to be counted, as well as the other creative means they've employed to artificially boost their numbers...they've achieved the first part of their goal and now they're moving toward the end game, they've masterfully exploited our politicians greed and myopia.

                          Comment

                          • Pelagonija
                            Member
                            • Mar 2017
                            • 533

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                            I trust that most posters have presented various statistics in good faith, assuming that the stats are indeed accurate...
                            Sadly, I don't think you can trust any statistics in Macedonia, particularly those relating to the size of the shiptar minority.

                            We've seen countless examples of both sides of politics involved in fraudulent activity to further their sides political ambitions.

                            I have serious doubts over the claim that the size of the shiptar minority is in the 25%+ range.
                            My suspicion is that the 2002 census was a total fabrication, engineered by outsiders to bring the shiptar terrorists of 2001 to the 'peace table'...

                            The shiptari are an opportunistic lot, just as the Tirana Platform has proven...if they were remotely close to a legitimate figure of 25% or greater they'd be running to the USA and EU demanding another census and they would be demanding them on a regular basis to legitimise their claims and further their agenda but they've always remained mute on the subject...They know that it's a logistical nightmare to bus people in from all over Europe to be counted, as well as the other creative means they've employed to artificially boost their numbers...they've achieved the first part of their goal and now they're moving toward the end game, they've masterfully exploited our politicians greed and myopia.

                            I have my doubts too when driving around Albanian inhabited areas, lots of empty houses and I agree that the Albanians are just little too mute on the census, it just doesn't add up?

                            What also would be interesting is information on Macedonian citizens who's birth place is Kosovo or Albania. My understanding is that lot of Kosovo Albanians settled in MKD in thh 80s and 90s.

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              #15
                              Originally posted by mklion View Post
                              What do you think the percentage is then?

                              Its impossible for Albanians to be lower than 20%. The reason is that they make up 32% of the births in the country (~7500 births out of 23000 born each year) and also make up around 32% of the student population in primary and lower secondary schools.

                              So the maximum capacity that they can reach over the next 50 years or so without emigration is around 1/3rd of the country in sheer numbers assuming demographic trends stay exactly the same.

                              Here is how I have determined the number of emigrants. This is just a generalization and we do not know the exact statistics because the Macedonian State Statistical office does not keep these records.

                              Macedonian primary school students
                              2006/2007: 122,016 = 53,4% share of the total
                              2007/2008: 118,507 = 53,6%
                              2008/2009: 115,605 = 53,7%
                              2009/2010: 112,293 = 53,7%
                              2010/2011: 109,765 = 54,3%
                              2011/2012: 107,564 = 54,3%
                              2012/2013: 105,648 = 54.35%
                              2013/2014: 104,254 = 54.7%
                              2014/2015: 103,036 = 54.7%
                              2015/2016: 102,644 = 55.4%

                              15.8% DECREASE in 9 years

                              Albanian primary school students
                              2006/2007: 78,467 = 34,3% share of the total
                              2007/2008: 75,141 = 34,0%
                              2008/2009: 72,570 = 33,7%
                              2009/2010: 69,922 = 33,4%
                              2010/2011: 66,156 = 32,7%
                              2011/2012: 65,085 = 32,8%
                              2012/2013: 63,483 = 32,71%
                              2013/2014: 62,118 = 32.6%
                              2014/2015: 62,012 = 32.9%
                              2015/2016: 60,127 = 32.4%

                              23.3% DECREASE in 9 years


                              If you look at the decrease in school students both Macedonians and Albanians lose around 2000 students per year on average. For the Macedonians this decrease is due to both emigration but also because Macedonians are having less kids on average (Total fertility rate of around 1.4-1.5)

                              The Albanians are emigrating as it cannot be due to population decline since they are a younger demographic and their TFR is around 2

                              So if 2000 kids leave assuming each has one mother and one father and also taking into account there could be a brother and sister with two of the same parents we can conclude that on average 2 school aged kids plus 2 parents = ~4000-4500 Albanians emigrate per year. This does not take into consideration young adults in their ~20s who leave so it could be even higher.

                              So over the next 10-15 years the Macedonian and the Albanian populations will converge as Macedonians age and Albanians large birth age demographic goes into their prime birthing years of the 20-30's, and then the Albanians population will start falling after that once deaths increase and the emigrants who have left have births outside of the country.
                              So if non-existent ethnic Albanians can bullshit their way onto election rolls and have their most desired goat voting on their behalf. What is to prevent them doing similar things in Albanians schools? Aside from obvious benefits about population statistics, they end up grabbing more schooling funds for even less students. A win-win in FYROmA (former yugoslav republic of more albanians).

                              The country is a joke and needs far more more scrutiny in relation to this matter.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

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