Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Pelagonija]

They don’t need a two thirds majority, they just make up the rules as they go.

They will obviously try and combine the referendum with the elections in order to get VMRO to not boycott the referendum, this will allow them to muster enough numbers to validate the referendum or have enough numbers to make attempts at manipulating the data not too obvious.

VMRO wont be able te resist.. fark the name they will mobilise for elections but won’t be able to form government anyway.

[Carlin]

Коѕијас: Северна Македoнија не, јас сакав да се вика „Северна Алјаска“

Kotzias: North Macedonia no, I wanted it to be called "North Alaska"

North Alaska instead of North Macedonia was much more acceptable for Kotzias, but the head of Greek diplomacy claims that previous governments have already included the name Macedonia in the process.

Speaking at the Greek MFA, he spoke about the legal aspects of the Prespa agreement convincing the audience that the treaty brings the two countries a boost, and the key to the negotiations was the name, the inviolability of borders and the existence or not of the minority.

- Ask me if I like North Macedonia. No. I would have liked it to be called North Alaska, but there was already an agreement on a complex name that would contain the term Macedonia. The term has been in the negotiations for decades, and I consider that it is unethical for those who have done things to be presented as supporters of a name that will not contain Macedonia, Kotzias said.

URL:

https://sitel.com.mk/kodzijas-severna-makedonija-ne-jas-sakav-da-se-vika-severna-aljaska

[Tomche Makedonche]

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-referendum-talks-end-in-shambles-07-23-2018

Macedonia Referendum Talks End in Shambles

Macedonia’s marathon talks between top political leaders, aimed at removing the opposition blockade of the country’s planned referendum on its historic name deal with Greece, took an unexpected ‘dark’ turn on Monday, ending in fiasco.

In his public address after Monday’s parlays, Macedonian Prime Minister and main ruling Social Democrats leader Zoran Zaev accused the opposition right-wing VMRO DPMNE chief Hristijan Mickovski of “lying” that he wants his country to join NATO and the EU, and of hiding his true intentions at the talks.

“Unfortunately, Hristijan Mickovski failed to recognize the momentum. Instead of boarding the train that rushes towards the EU and NATO, he chose to stay on the dark side of history,” Zaev said.

Zaev accused Mickovski of faking his intent to reach an agreement that would lift his party’s blockade over the forthcoming referendum, even though the ruling parties met all of his formal demands.

He claims that Mickovski is stalling to try to bargain for an amnesty for his political "mentor”, eluding to the VMRO DPMNE’s former leader Nikola Gruevski, who is currently standing trial - alongside other former members of the party leadership - on various charges made against him by the Special Prosecution, centred around the illegal wiretaps released in 2015.

Monday’s marathon meeting between the leaders of the four main political parties were the third attempt for a deal after two previous meetings failed to yield results last week.

Mickovski previously dismissed speculation that the main stumbling block in the talks was the opposition's insistence on changes to the penal code in order to include an informal amnesty for former party leaders and officials.

Earlier during the day, it seemed like the talks were moving towards a deal when both sides told media that the government had accepted all of the opposition's official demands, including provision guaranteeing the formation of a technical government 100 days ahead of any future elections, to ensure their fairness.

In exchange, the opposition, which opposes the Greek agreement, was expected to stop blocking the appointment of the electoral commission in parliament which would be tasked at organizing the referendum and call on its supporters to participate in the vote.

Opposition participation is crucial to the success of the referendum. Without it, many observers say it will be very hard to achieve a turnout threshold of 50 per cent of all voters.

A principal aim of the landmark agreement with Greece, signed on June 17, was to ensure that Greece ended its longstanding blockade of Macedonia’s membership of NATO and the EU.

Under the deal, Macedonia agreed to change its name to Republic of North Macedonia, while Greece agreed to lift its veto on Macedonia's EU and NATO integration.

For the deal to be fully implemented, however, Macedonians must show they support it in a referendum.

The Social Democrat-led government wants the vote held in late September or early October, so that there is time to adopt the required constitutional changes by year-end

[Gocka]

So basically screw Macedonian sovereignty and dignity, lets get Gruevski off the hook.

[Risto the Great]

Togash, Gospod zdravje da mu daj i mu chestitam za iskrenosta shto ja pokazha.

Totally agree. There was absolutely nothing controversial in that article. It was great to read a "reasonable" Greek's perspective,

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/augustine-zenakos/greece-macedonia-negotiating-history-doesn-t-make-it-true

[Pelagonija]

So basically screw Macedonian sovereignty and dignity, lets get Gruevski off the hook.

Doesn’t really matter.. Zaev has already put pen to paper and has Been seen in the media kissing the pen on numerous occasions. There is no force on this planet that can prevent the dismantling of the nation.

Btw Gruo helped his mates by distributing the booty, of course any good mate will support a mate in need in return... Zaev is doing the same now and the next mob will do the same..

[Carlin]

Not a supporter of DPMNE party whatsoever, just sharing this below.

Арсовски: Во моментов нема поместување на ставот за референдумското прашање

Портпаролот на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ Димче Арсовски денеска изјави дека во однос на референдумското прашање и карактерот на референдумот во моментов нема никакво поместување и оти ставот на партијата веќе неколку пати го соопштиле.

– Нашиот став во однос на прашањето веќе неколку пати го кажавме. Тој е јасен и според законските норми и европските начела во моментов како што знаете од таму каде што застана на лидерската средба нема никакво помрднување, рече Арсовски одговарајќи на новинарско прашање за тоа дали постојат консултации помеѓу ВМРО-ДПМНЕ и власта околу референдумското прашање и за карактерот на референдумот.

Арсовски не одговори дали пратениците на опозициската партија ќе учествуваат на седницата за распишување на референдумот која е најавена за понеделник, ниту пак која ќе биде улогата на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ на референдумот. Не сакаше да ја коментира ниту вчерашната изјава на вицепремиерката и министерка за одбрана Радмила Шеќеринска.

– Не би ја коментирал изјавата, би оставил да почекаме да видиме што ќе се случи и дали ќе има помрднување од состојбата која што е во моментов па понатаму ќе можеме да дискутираме и на други теми, рече портпаролот на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ.

URL:

https://1tv.mk/makedonija/%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%BE-%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%9A/

[Niko777]

Aljazeera: Zaev's socialist government will have to remove references to the "Macedonian people" as an indigenous race, implying ancient heritage. He will also have to remove references to past struggles to unite all Macedonians from Skopje to the Aegean, implying irredentist claims on Greek territory.

Read the rest of the article here: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/...191058894.html

[Risto the Great]

will have to remove references to the "Macedonian people" as an indigenous race, implying ancient heritage.

Perhaps Macedonians might need to get their DNA tests done to dispel this one.

Perhaps Greek need theirs done as well.

What a sad joke all of this is.

[Stojacanec]

Maybe all the gays in Macedonia need to turn straight again to enter Nato and EU. The Greeks are worried they have claims on Alexander the Great who was also gay.

[Tomche Makedonche]

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/macedonia-to-hold-name-change-referendum-on-september-30

Macedonia to hold name-change referendum on September 30

Macedonian lawmakers have approved plans to hold a referendum on a proposed name change, potentially solving a longstanding dispute with Greece.

Macedonia's parliament has set September 30 as the date for a referendum on changing the country's name to the Republic of North Macedonia, a high-stakes vote aimed at resolving a long-running row with Greece and clearing the path to join NATO and the EU.

Skopje and Athens signed a landmark agreement in June to rename the former Yugoslav republic in an effort to break a stalemate that has poisoned their relations since 1991 and hobbled Macedonia's integration with the West.

Greece has objected to its neighbour being called Macedonia because it has a northern province of the same name, accusing Skopje of territorial ambitions and appropriating its cultural heritage.

While more than 120 countries, including the US and Russia, have recognised the name the "Republic of Macedonia," Athens has voiced its protest by blocking the country from joining NATO or starting EU accession talks.

The referendum question approved by 68 out of Macedonia's 120 lawmakers on Monday does not spell out the new name clearly.

But it closely links the vote to the government's ambitions of stronger ties with the West.

On September 30 the public will be asked: "Are you for EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between the Republic of Macedonia and the Republic of Greece?"

The nationalist opposition party, VMRO-DPMNE, which opposes the referendum, boycotted the parliamentary vote by leaving the room, signalling a rocky road ahead.

"The question is ambiguous and multifaceted, and above all manipulative," said Igor Janusev, a leading member of VMRO-DPMNE.

Vote will be 'consultative'

After the deal was struck between Greek and Macedonian leaders in June, NATO said Macedonia would be eligible to join the alliance if its new name is finalised.

The European Union, for its part, said that accession negotiations would not begin before June 2019.

But progress in resolving the dispute has been challenged by hardliners and large protests in both countries.

Athens has also accused Russia -- who opposes Macedonia's efforts to join NATO -- of trying to sabotage the accord by encouraging demonstrations.

Opponents in Greece are upset that the deal recognises a Macedonian language and nationality.

In Macedonia, nationalists have branded the name-change as an assault on the country's identity.

Macedonia's Prime Minister Zoran Zaev has said the referendum will only be "consultative" - meaning that parliament could still vote to change the country's name even if it does not get a majority approval by the public.

If Macedonia does go ahead with the name change and revises its constitution, Greece's parliament will then be called to ratify the accord.

After declaring independence from Yugoslavia in 1991, Macedonia was admitted to the United Nations in 1993 under the provisional name of the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".

[Gocka]

MOTHER FUCKERS!

Why even mention the EU in the referendum. EU membership is not guaranteed by the agreement, only that Greece won't veto. Who says Bulgaria won't veto, or that he EU will even extend an invitation. The referendum is about changing the name thus the question should as that question only.

Then their is the fact that the referendum is non binding, so what the fuck is the point.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/macedoni...n-september-30

Macedonia to hold name-change referendum on September 30

Macedonian lawmakers have approved plans to hold a referendum on a proposed name change, potentially solving a longstanding dispute with Greece.

Macedonia's parliament has set September 30 as the date for a referendum on changing the country's name to the Republic of North Macedonia, a high-stakes vote aimed at resolving a long-running row with Greece and clearing the path to join NATO and the EU.

Skopje and Athens signed a landmark agreement in June to rename the former Yugoslav republic in an effort to break a stalemate that has poisoned their relations since 1991 and hobbled Macedonia's integration with the West.

Greece has objected to its neighbour being called Macedonia because it has a northern province of the same name, accusing Skopje of territorial ambitions and appropriating its cultural heritage.

While more than 120 countries, including the US and Russia, have recognised the name the "Republic of Macedonia," Athens has voiced its protest by blocking the country from joining NATO or starting EU accession talks.

The referendum question approved by 68 out of Macedonia's 120 lawmakers on Monday does not spell out the new name clearly.

But it closely links the vote to the government's ambitions of stronger ties with the West.

On September 30 the public will be asked: "Are you for EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between the Republic of Macedonia and the Republic of Greece?"

The nationalist opposition party, VMRO-DPMNE, which opposes the referendum, boycotted the parliamentary vote by leaving the room, signalling a rocky road ahead.

"The question is ambiguous and multifaceted, and above all manipulative," said Igor Janusev, a leading member of VMRO-DPMNE.
Vote will be 'consultative'

After the deal was struck between Greek and Macedonian leaders in June, NATO said Macedonia would be eligible to join the alliance if its new name is finalised.

The European Union, for its part, said that accession negotiations would not begin before June 2019.

But progress in resolving the dispute has been challenged by hardliners and large protests in both countries.

Athens has also accused Russia -- who opposes Macedonia's efforts to join NATO -- of trying to sabotage the accord by encouraging demonstrations.

Opponents in Greece are upset that the deal recognises a Macedonian language and nationality.

In Macedonia, nationalists have branded the name-change as an assault on the country's identity.

Macedonia's Prime Minister Zoran Zaev has said the referendum will only be "consultative" - meaning that parliament could still vote to change the country's name even if it does not get a majority approval by the public.

If Macedonia does go ahead with the name change and revises its constitution, Greece's parliament will then be called to ratify the accord.

After declaring independence from Yugoslavia in 1991, Macedonia was admitted to the United Nations in 1993 under the provisional name of the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".

[Risto the Great]

The Macedonian government will be clever again. They will underhandedly suggest they will be able to unwind from all of this if they don't get in the EU.

Typical Macedonian "cleverness" that made the nation a joke in the world.

[Phoenix]

MOTHER FUCKERS!

Why even mention the EU in the referendum. EU membership is not guaranteed by the agreement, only that Greece won't veto. Who says Bulgaria won't veto, or that he EU will even extend an invitation. The referendum is about changing the name thus the question should as that question only.

Then their is the fact that the referendum is non binding, so what the fuck is the point.

There's absolutely no point to any of this...it is the most pointless of all pointless exercises...

You can't trust greece, bulgaria, the EU or NATO to uphold any part of their end of the deal.

This cunt Zaev is hell bent on doing whatever it takes to initiate the name change and make it final.

My question is, why so desperate for NATO membership, Macedonia is surrounded by NATO members, do they believe that NATO membership is protection from NATO itself, perhaps so, we've seen how NATO operates from past experiences in the region.

What can the EU guarantee for Macedonia that Macedonia can't do for itself. Our corrupt politicians and judiciary need to be removed and reformed by willing Macedonians rather than self-serving thieves, that alone would improve the economic and social prosperity of the nation overnight.

After making such a disastrous compromise with the greeks where the greek side hasn't lost anything, why wouldn't Zaev demand that the greeks ratify the agreement before the Macedonian side does...instead they've opened themselves to be stripped of a few more pieces of clothing...and still standing outside in the cold.

[Big Bad Sven]

MOTHER FUCKERS!

Why even mention the EU in the referendum. EU membership is not guaranteed by the agreement, only that Greece won't veto. Who says Bulgaria won't veto, or that he EU will even extend an invitation. The referendum is about changing the name thus the question should as that question only.

Then their is the fact that the referendum is non binding, so what the fuck is the point.

Interesting how the reffrendum reffers to FYROM as simply republic of macedonia, yet its asking its citezens to change its name (so that it can enter the EU and NATO). Truely idiotic and bizare, like everything in that pathetic country.

Yeah i can see that the government is trying to 'trick' the people into voting for the name change by dangling the EU and NATO carrot - but on the flip side the average macedonian must have an incredibly short attention span if simple empty promises of EU and NATO, and short term quick gains can make them throw away their identity and comit natinal suicide. In many ways macedonian are very similar to mainland chinese when you think about - they only think short term and not long term.