Dorian Tribe

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  • Spartan
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1037

    #16
    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    That's an interesting suggestion Spartan. Anything in support of this theory?
    Well, I have read this explanation before, how concrete it is - im not sure. Here is a link that may shed some light on this -

    The unity of proto-Greek probably ended as hellenic migrants, speaking the predecessor of the Myceanean language, entered the greek penninsula around the 21st century bc. They were then seperated from the Dorian Greeks, who entered the penninsula roughly one millenium later, speaking a dialect that in some respects had remained more archaic.

    A Grammar of Modern Indo-European is a complete reference guide to a modern, revived Indo-European language. It contains a comprehensive description of Proto-Indo-European grammar and offers an analysis of the complexities of the prehistoric language and its reconstruction. Written in a fresh and accessible style, this book focuses on the real patterns of use in a modern Europe's Indo-European language. The book is well organized and is filled with full, clear explanations of areas of confusion and difficulty. It also includes an extensive bilingual dictionary, etymological notes, and numbered paragraphs designed to provide readers easy access to the information they require. An essential reference source for the learner and user of Indo-European, this book will be the standard work for years to come.


    Messy, isn't it? Nevertheless, it is an extremely interesting topic that I would like to discuss in further detail, should anybody share the same interest and take the time to review all of the sources. I am suprised at the weak foundations of so many theories that are commonly accepted today, I would like to disprove them, or, at least see something solid and credible that confirms them.
    Very messy indeed SoM. Like I said before, things get very blury when discussing history of so long ago. No matter what we theorize, it will always be able to be disputed to the lack of concrete info from those times.

    Anyways, do you remember we had an interesting topic last winter(summer for you lol) about the Dorians. perhaps the topics could be merged if we can find the old one. Struja posted some interesting stuff if Im not mistaken.

    Ill see what else I can dig up about the Dorians, and how theyre language compares to that of the Mycaeneans.

    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    A more probable scenario, in my opinion, is that the Dorians migrated into Attica and the Peloponnese and wreaked complete havoc on the inhabitants, which almost completely changed the elements that were pre-existent, destroying most, but absorbing some (like placenames for example).
    This seems like a sound explanation of how things materialized. The only thing Im not sure of is that the Dorians migrated into attica. Attica was Ionian if Im not mistaken.

    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    That's not exactly a relative comparison Spartan, nor does it have a parallel with what you seem to be making reference to (if you are talking about how Attic is related to Koine, which is related to Romaic, which is related to Modern Greek respectively). For example, there is no way that Attic is related to Mycanaean the way it is to Koine, in fact, Attic is closer to Modern Greek than to Mycanaean. That renders the probability of such a linguistic continuity you suggested above rather weak.
    Okay, Attic - Koine are related - no question.
    I agree the link between Doric greek and Mycaenean must have been greater than that of Mycaenian - Koine, which would have been minimal at most. However, these languages are all greek at their root, and must share some type of common origin.
    The Tsakonian dialect, still spoken by very few to this day could shed some light on the differences. Tsakonian, which is derived from the Dorian Greek, can barely be understood by todays Greek due to the fact it has no 'atticisms' ; it missed out on the Koine period Alexander introduced.

    I also agree with the second half of your post when you say that Attic is closer to modern greek than Mycaenian. As well as a modern Greek speaker could read Koine, Im willing to wager that a Tsakonian speaker could understand the Dorian language of the same period.

    There is a saying(not sure how true it is) that the greek of Homer to Xenophon, is further seperated, than the Greek of Xenephon to todays Greek.

    Homer to Xenophon is about 4 - 500 yrs apart.
    Xenophon to today is about 2400 yrs apart.
    Crazy stuff.
    Last edited by Spartan; 12-01-2009, 05:20 PM.

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    • Struja
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 206

      #17
      Originally posted by Spartan View Post
      Anyways, do you remember we had an interesting topic last winter (summer for you lol) about the Dorian’s. perhaps the topics could be merged if we can find the old one. Struja posted some interesting stuff if Im not mistaken..
      Yeah I do remember it! But I can't find that topic on here...

      Anyway I do have my old work somewhere at home, once I find it I’II re-posts it again...
      I believe it was something about the so-called “Dorian invasion” and the down fall of the Mycenaean civilisation..The period that we were covering was heading towards the dark ages with new discoveries coming to light! It was interesting stuff.

      Maybe this thread should be moved to the history section.

      Comment

      • Wanderer
        Junior Member
        • Nov 2009
        • 48

        #18
        Some good videos for discussion:
        YouTube - DORIAN GREEKS (SPARTANS - MACEDONIANS)
        YouTube - The Dorians

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #19
          The 'Dorian' origins of the Macedonians is a conjured myth with absolutely no solid foundation, this is what happens when authors are misquoted and their works misrepresented.

          So, Wanderer, rather than putting up these baloney youtube clips up for discussion, make the point you are trying to make and then back it up with some facts and logic.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Bill77
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 4545

            #20
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            The 'Dorian' origins of the Macedonians is a conjured myth with absolutely no solid foundation, this is what happens when authors are misquoted and their works misrepresented.

            So, Wanderer, rather than putting up these baloney youtube clips up for discussion, make the point you are trying to make and then back it up with some facts and logic.
            Notice the Dorian unrelated images of a curent propaganda blue flag with the sun on it? the flag that never existed prior to late 1980's? clearly a fairy tale you tube clip with propaganda intentions, or a amature who is very nieve.

            I was disapointed actualy, expecting to learn something as the clip sugests "Dorians (spartans-Macedonians)" But nothing to show how the Spartans or Macedonians are conected to Dorians. no referances, or evidance of any sort. Also, i had a good laugh at a quote that poped up "Greek Kingdom" which again says alot about the intentions of this clip or the creaters education level. My review and judgment on this clip 0/5

            The second clip, my god i would be embaresed creating it or posting it. Again Titled Dorians, and we get photos of Jennifer Aniston in the nude lol. I would have given it thumbs up if it had full frontal shots of Jen.
            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

            Comment

            • Phoenix
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2008
              • 4671

              #21
              c'mon guys it was on youtube, its gotta be the truth, show me a compatible wiki article and I'm a believer...

              Comment

              • Bill77
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 4545

                #22
                Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                c'mon guys it was on youtube, its gotta be the truth, show me a compatible wiki article and I'm a believer...
                Was Mickey Spanish? infact, could he realy Talk????

                YouTube - Mickey Mouse hot dog en español
                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                Comment

                • Phoenix
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 4671

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                  Was Mickey Spanish? infact, could he realy Talk????
                  Majkata...and I thought he was 'greek' all this time, I thought he was that rat Fatso's little cousin...

                  Comment

                  • Wanderer
                    Junior Member
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 48

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    The 'Dorian' origins of the Macedonians is a conjured myth with absolutely no solid foundation, this is what happens when authors are misquoted and their works misrepresented.

                    So, Wanderer, rather than putting up these baloney youtube clips up for discussion, make the point you are trying to make and then back it up with some facts and logic.
                    Indeed,I must admit that I did not checked the base and the logic of the videos,however even the video facts ,lets say are ''rudiculous'',we should examine them and say why is that.

                    Haha,Bill I put that video,only for Aniston's nude pic Just joking.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      #25
                      Wanderer, a word of advice, if you want your posts to be taken seriously, then know what you're posting. Otherwise, garbage youtube clips like this have no place here.

                      So state the 'video facts' and examine them, unless of course the intent was to purposefully post uncorroborated garbage from some propagandist.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • DraganOfStip
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 1253

                        #26
                        Were Ancient Macedonians really a Dorian tribe?

                        I may be a bit boring and all,but one more thing caught my attention.Greeks often say that Macedonians were a Dorian tribe (like Spartans).This may also have been debated elsewhere.Can someone point me to it or if there wasn't such a debate,does anyone have any information and sources that can confirm/disclaim this?
                        ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                        ― George Orwell

                        Comment

                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          #27
                          Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                          I may be a bit boring and all,but one more thing caught my attention.Greeks often say that Macedonians were a Dorian tribe (like Spartans).This may also have been debated elsewhere.Can someone point me to it or if there wasn't such a debate,does anyone have any information and sources that can confirm/disclaim this?
                          FYI - Greek argument is based on the following:

                          By these lines when they came to him Crœsus was pleased more than by all the rest, for he supposed that a mule would never be ruler of the Medes instead of a man, and accordingly that he himself and his heirs would never cease from their rule. Then after this he gave thought to inquire which people of the Hellenes he should esteem the most powerful and gain over to himself as friends. And inquiring he found that the Lacedemonians and the Athenians had the pre-eminence, the first of the Dorian and the others of the Ionian race. For these were the most eminent races in ancient time, the second being a Pelasgian and the first a Hellenic race: and the one never migrated from its place in any direction, while the other was very exceedingly given to wanderings; for in the reign of Deucalion this race dwelt in Pthiotis, and in the time of Doros the son of Hellen in the land lying below Ossa and Olympos, which is called Histiaiotis; and when it was driven from Histiaiotis by the sons of Cadmos, it dwelt in Pindos and was called Makednian; and thence it moved afterwards to Dryopis, and from Dryopis it came finally to Peloponnesus, and began to be called Dorian.

                          Herodotus
                          The History of Herodotus, parallel English/Greek, tr. G. C. Macaulay, [1890], full text etext at sacred-texts.com

                          Comment

                          • Perun
                            Junior Member
                            • Jul 2012
                            • 43

                            #28
                            I always laugh when someone puts forward the funny proposition that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe. There's a simple parallel to our modern society - there's globalization which happens on a large-scale Anglo-American basis today. That doesn't mean that we're all English or American, does it? It was the same way in the past - Macedonians were a tribe who had their kingdom and everything, but accepted some aspects of the invaded Hellenic culture (albeit not language and war tactics).
                            Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              #29
                              THe macedonians were not related in any way why would they be as they both spoke their own mother tounge.THe only time to speak greek was used by the royal house for commerce or trade.The city states were a different set up.THe macedonians had a kingdom & king.So it's all different.
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

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                              • Carlin
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 3332

                                #30
                                Dorians were most likely Egyptians:

                                "Hdt prefers the Greek version, which makes the Dorians Egyptians and traces their family back only as far as Perseus (53). A Persian version makes Perseus an Assyrian (54)."





                                With regard to what is now called the Dorian Invasion, Bernal notes that in ancient times this was much more frequently called "the return of the Heraklids." The Dorians came from the northwestern fringes of Greece, which had been less affected by the Middle Eastern culture of the Mycenaean palaces which they destroyed. Their use of the name Heraklids was a claim not only to divine descent from Herakles, but also to Egyptian and Phoenician royal ancestors. This is not simply a modern theory. Ancient sources show that the descendants of these conquerors, the Dorian kings of classical and Hellenistic times, believed themselves to be descended from Egyptians and Phoenicians."

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