Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > General Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-29-2018, 12:42 AM   #21
Soldier of Macedon
Administrator
 
Soldier of Macedon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Outpost
Posts: 12,721
Soldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
If there's no unified campaign with a clear and simple message to Macedonians, that can actually motivate them, then the results will still likely be irrelevant.
I don't think that should discourage active individuals. If engagement is an issue, have you considered leading a campaign through LOMA in collaboration with other like-minded organisations? Probably worth giving it some thought.
Quote:
I agree that it seems reasonable and simple (common sense) to do something that takes 10 seconds. However, I think it's a mistake to assume that most Macedonians in the US have made that connection, or have had that realization, that "if I write in Macedonian for my race, this is going to benefit us as a community." And because I think it's a mistake to assume that, I think it's a mistake to generalize or categorize people for not doing it.
After all of the denial we've had to withstand as a people, I would've thought the concept of 'stand up and be counted' would be prevalent among those who still identify as Macedonians in a free society. The lack of foresight comes as a bit of a surprise and I still find it odd how some people cannot make the connection. I suppose it is what it is, although many people must be doing something right if the U.S. Census Bureau estimates some 50,000 Macedonians based on the data they collect.
Quote:
Yes. Official statistics would probably point to Australia, or Melbourne in particular, as having more Macedonians. Then again, Greece's official statistics don't say much about about the ethnic Macedonian population in Greece.
Greece is not equivalent in comparison for obvious reasons. We're talking about diaspora countries that don't deny the ethnic identity of the Macedonian people as a matter of state policy.
Quote:
Therefore, it's not unreasonable based on unofficial estimates and independent research to assume that Toronto may have the largest Macedonian population outside the Balkans.
I'd have to see more of the independent research. Unofficial estimates can be valuable. They can also be anecdotal. I have often heard people say that Melbourne is unique in that it has the largest Macedonian and Greek communities outside of Macedonia and Greece.
Quote:
I think I should also mention that, unless the US census question regarding race changes, it will be useless to write in Macedonian. Some people did write in Macedonian on the census, for other race, and I don't think you can find that information (on how many listed Macedonian) anywhere.
I found this: https://www.census.gov/data/develope...nsus.2000.html

Which led me to this: https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...=geo&refresh=t

When you can select 'race/ancestry' then type in Macedonia and Macedonian, it comes up with the below:

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...prodType=table
https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...prodType=table
__________________
In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a full blooded Macedonian.
Soldier of Macedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 05:42 AM   #22
vicsinad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,133
vicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
I don't think that should discourage active individuals. If engagement is an issue, have you considered leading a campaign through LOMA in collaboration with other like-minded organisations? Probably worth giving it some thought.
Again, it's likely futile. The decennial US Census, not the ACS survey, is not going to tally the number of written in 'Other-Macedonian'. I've never seen that tally anywhere. I've only seen it for ACS estimates, which are random samples of the population, mailed out to 3-4 million households, that ask about ethnicity.

And no, we haven't considered it with LOMA. If the decennial US Census question is about race, and not ethnicity, it will not amount to anything.

Quote:
After all of the denial we've had to withstand as a people, I would've thought the concept of 'stand up and be counted' would be prevalent among those who still identify as Macedonians in a free society. The lack of foresight comes as a bit of a surprise and I still find it odd how some people cannot make the connection. I suppose it is what it is, although many people must be doing something right if the U.S. Census Bureau estimates some 50,000 Macedonians based on the data they collect.
Again, this number is not based on the decennial US Census but on ACS surveys, which are estimates. ACS survey asks about race and ethnicity, separately, and then tallies them separately. The decennial US census asks about race but does not tally the separate "other-race", or publicize a tally of that "other" for each written in answer, as far as I'm aware.

Quote:
Greece is not equivalent in comparison for obvious reasons. We're talking about diaspora countries that don't deny the ethnic identity of the Macedonian people as a matter of state policy.
Of course. The only purpose of me writing that was to show that official Census counts are not necessarily reliable if they don't ask about ethnicity.

Quote:
I'd have to see more of the independent research. Unofficial estimates can be valuable. They can also be anecdotal. I have often heard people say that Melbourne is unique in that it has the largest Macedonian and Greek communities outside of Macedonia and Greece.
That's fine and it may be true.

Quote:
I found this: https://www.census.gov/data/develope...nsus.2000.html

Which led me to this: https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...=geo&refresh=t

When you can select 'race/ancestry' then type in Macedonia and Macedonian, it comes up with the below:

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...prodType=table
https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...prodType=table
To my understanding, none of these are based on the decennial US Census and are instead based on the ACS surveys. Here's a table that lists ethnicity out from 2005 to 2013 based on ACS surveys. Supposedly, the number of Macedonians in the US only increased by 300 in those 8 years. These estimate are not accurate and are based on random sample sizes and not the decennial US Census:

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...xhtml?src=bkmk


I'll just recap so to not go around in circles:

1. It is futile to write in 'Macedonian' as an other race on the decennial US Census because it's likely not tallied, and even if it is tallied, it's not publicized. Thus, even a motivational and organized campaign to get people to put Other-Macedonian serves little use, except maybe to convince the US Census Bureau to ask about ethnicity in the next decennial survey.

2. The ACS estimates are based on surveys sent to a sample size of probably less than 1% of the US population. This does ask about ethnicity, and it's obvious people do list their ethnicity as Macedonian, but it's not an actual "count" of the population and has other estimation problems.

3. Toronto probably has the largest population of Macedonians outside of the Balkans based on unofficial counts and estimates; then again, it may not. I think it's noteworthy to point out, however, that unlike Australia, probably the vast majority (90%) of Canada's Macedonians are located in the greater-Toronto area, based on the fact that (I think) only one Macedonian Orthodox Church is located outside of greater-Toronto (and that church is about 10 minutes from Detroit, so it could almost be counted in greater-Detroit's churches).
vicsinad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 09:43 AM   #23
Soldier of Macedon
Administrator
 
Soldier of Macedon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Outpost
Posts: 12,721
Soldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicsinad
Again, it's likely futile.
I can see why it may seem futile when there are people who are indifferent and the data collection process isn't entirely clinical. But some basic community awareness, at least for the ACS survey (if indeed you're correct about the decennial census) would be a worthy pursuit in my opinion. You seem to think differently. That's fine.
Quote:
Thus, even a motivational and organized campaign to get people to put Other-Macedonian serves little use, except maybe to convince the US Census Bureau to ask about ethnicity in the next decennial survey.
The census coalition of UMD and other organisations back in 2010 were intending to instruct Macedonians to do what I suggested earlier regarding 'some other race' in question 9. They seemed to think it would reflect in statistics. Do you think they were uninformed about that?
Quote:
Toronto probably has the largest population of Macedonians outside of the Balkans based on unofficial counts and estimates; then again, it may not.
Talk about neither here nor there, lol. Whatever it is. I am not interested in engaging in one-upmanship on this subject. For now, let's just agree to disagree on something that hasn't been factually corroborated here either way.
__________________
In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a full blooded Macedonian.
Soldier of Macedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 09:57 AM   #24
Gocka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohrid
Posts: 1,777
Gocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud of
Default

I've never been mailed a census or ACS form, nor has any Macedonian I know ever spoken to me about either.

The dynamics in the US for the Macedonian community are completely different to those in Australia. The US is obviously a much larger country where we as a minority are frankly completely irrelevant. There are probably more one eyed pirates in the US than Macedonians.

In Australia, Macedonians are not only more in number than in the US, but in your communities you are actually a significant minority. You have at least a little clout in your local politics, so it is very much in your interest to make sure your numbers are known.

For example, Macedonians in New Jersey Make up a most .0001% of the population, Michigan and Ohio maybe .0004%, in New York the fraction is <.0001%. In Melbourne Macedonians make up probably around 2% of the population. Not staggering ring but still enough to be counted and noticed.

Macedonians in relation to the whole of Australia are probably about .008% of the population, that is double the representation Macedonians have in only either of the two states where Macedonians are most prevalent.

In short, at least in the US, Macedonians probably don't see the use in trying to be counted given how insignificant they are. I disagree that it is pointless, but I could understand why people might come to that conclusion. This is on top of the fact that as Vic stated, the census is not really geared to accurately count ethnicity.


Now Toronto is baffling because Macedonians in Toronto should make up 4-5% of the city, a pretty significant number I think. I don't know why they are not accurately reflected in census data. Could be the way the census is conducted. Could be the fact that Canada has a very old and well assimilated group of Macedonian immigrants, where as Australia is more from the 60's onward.

In the end we can't even count ourselves correctly in our own homeland, is it a surprise we can't do it in the Diaspora.

I do wish we could have some reliable numbers worldwide and in Macedonia though.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

After all of the denial we've had to withstand as a people, I would've thought the concept of 'stand up and be counted' would be prevalent among those who still identify as Macedonians in a free society. The lack of foresight comes as a bit of a surprise and I still find it odd how some people cannot make the connection. I suppose it is what it is, although many people must be doing something right if the U.S. Census Bureau estimates some 50,000 Macedonians based on the data they collect.
Gocka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 12:03 PM   #25
vicsinad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,133
vicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

The census coalition of UMD and other organisations back in 2010 were intending to instruct Macedonians to do what I suggested earlier regarding 'some other race' in question 9. They seemed to think it would reflect in statistics. Do you think they were uninformed about that?
I do think they were uninformed in their approach. I have never seen any information publicized by the US Census (regarding the decennial census) about a Macedonian race or ethnicity. It's a worthless pursuit unless the US Census Bureau will tally and publish what people put for Other-Race. No one has been able to show me where it's reflected in the statistics, and no research that I've done for Macedonians in America book show a recent decennial US census that discusses anything other than a few main categories of race.

And even if they had published the data on what people put for Other-Race, I believe that most Macedonians just checked off white, meaning that a tally of the number of "Other-Race Macedonians" would be meaningless.
vicsinad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 12:16 PM   #26
vicsinad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,133
vicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
I've never been mailed a census or ACS form, nor has any Macedonian I know ever spoken to me about either.

The dynamics in the US for the Macedonian community are completely different to those in Australia. The US is obviously a much larger country where we as a minority are frankly completely irrelevant. There are probably more one eyed pirates in the US than Macedonians.

In Australia, Macedonians are not only more in number than in the US, but in your communities you are actually a significant minority. You have at least a little clout in your local politics, so it is very much in your interest to make sure your numbers are known.

For example, Macedonians in New Jersey Make up a most .0001% of the population, Michigan and Ohio maybe .0004%, in New York the fraction is <.0001%. In Melbourne Macedonians make up probably around 2% of the population. Not staggering ring but still enough to be counted and noticed.

Macedonians in relation to the whole of Australia are probably about .008% of the population, that is double the representation Macedonians have in only either of the two states where Macedonians are most prevalent.
This reminds me of how many Macedonians were saying that Macedonians were responsible for getting George W. Bush reelected. We are nearly irrelevant in national politics, and in local politics maybe only two or three communities.



Quote:
Now Toronto is baffling because Macedonians in Toronto should make up 4-5% of the city, a pretty significant number I think. I don't know why they are not accurately reflected in census data. Could be the way the census is conducted. Could be the fact that Canada has a very old and well assimilated group of Macedonian immigrants, where as Australia is more from the 60's onward.
It would be interesting to get a Canadian Macedonian understanding about what's going on there.

Quote:
I do wish we could have some reliable numbers worldwide and in Macedonia though.
Yes, we need. I came to the conclusion that the US has about 150,000 Macedonians. Or that 1 in every 2,200 people in the US is Macedonian. But none of my estimates were based on any official count and included studying migration patterns, past censuses, current surveys, church membership, church attendance on holidays, and some other methods.
vicsinad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2018, 06:14 PM   #27
Gocka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohrid
Posts: 1,777
Gocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud of
Default

I always enjoy when I hear how everyone is secretly Macedonian. Shakira, Tsipras, Angelina, recently someone said Melania Trump is half Macedonian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
This reminds me of how many Macedonians were saying that Macedonians were responsible for getting George W. Bush reelected. We are nearly irrelevant in national politics, and in local politics maybe only two or three communities.


Maybe because almost 100% of all Macedonians live in Toronto only, it affects the accuracy? Because all other territories and cities will have basically 0% Macedonians. So when they extrapolate the data it under counts them?

Quote:
It would be interesting to get a Canadian Macedonian understanding about what's going on there.

Its tricky because you had waves of Srbomani, Grkomani, and Bugaromani, who were or could have been counted as Macedonians at different times. Where do yo draw the line on who is and isn't Macedonian. I know as you've mentioned, in the Detroit area you have families where an uncle or some cousins of a Macedonian family are "Serbian". How can their whole family be Macedonian but you count them as something else? That's is why only a census with an ethnicity question can solve this. Our community has too many idiots to try and informally extrapolate.

Quote:
Yes, we need. I came to the conclusion that the US has about 150,000 Macedonians. Or that 1 in every 2,200 people in the US is Macedonian. But none of my estimates were based on any official count and included studying migration patterns, past censuses, current surveys, church membership, church attendance on holidays, and some other methods.
Gocka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 02:34 AM   #28
FoxTale
Junior Member
 
FoxTale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9
FoxTale is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Joining this forum is a good step, if not for anything else than to learn about our culture, history and perspectives. Advocate on behalf of Macedonian issues and raise awareness during your interaction with non-Macedonians. Challenge those that have espoused narratives which unfairly denigrate Macedonians. Do this whilst being mindful that your opinion as an 'outsider' may often be perceived as being more objective and less emotional. If you have influence in the area you reside, use it to help initiatives aimed at preserving the dignity and identity of Macedonians. Reach out to Macedonian community groups. If you need assistance with any of this, ask us, I am sure there would be someone here able to point you in the right direction. You can also learn to drink rakija shots, but that isn't always helpful
All that stuff sounds pretty helpful and I am learning how to write out arguments in order to make myself sound better when I present my points. I know there are Macedonian communities in my area (Near Detroit) because I do see the flag once in a while, I just don't who they are.
I would like to drink rakija shots, but i'm unfortunately, I'm a few years under the drinking age.

Also, do you know of any good books on Macedonian history or culture? I know Risto Stefov's works are good, but I would like to know more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Its all about awareness. Greeks for example have always had the advantage of being a larger and much more well know ethnic group. Many non Greeks are advocating on their behalf simply because they don't know the other side of the story. The Greekness of western society is something that has deep roots, predating the Greek state by centuries. So from our point of view, simply making people aware that there is another side, and that we do have rights and legitimate grievances, that is a huge step in the right direction.
I can tell and I always found that kind of interesting how we got to that. I do try to point out the other side whenever I talk to other people about the Balkans, unfortunately when I do they don't want to listen.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
It's legal for anyone who has Macedonian citizenship. It may seem like only Albanians come back to vote, because that is pretty much how it ends up. Most Albanians live in Europe, Switzerland and Italy being two hot spots. It is close enough that you can even drive back to Macedonia, even on short notice. Macedonians mostly live in the USA, Canada, and Australia. Requires long expensive flights, and is not really feasible to do on short notice and for a short period of time. On top of that many Macedonians in the Diaspora are very old immigration and have been in the diaspora for generations, meaning they don't have Macedonian citizenship. Many might be eligible through ancestry, but they still have to go through the process and actually obtain it. Then you have Macedonians who were forced out of modern day Greece and Bulgaria who don't have roots in the modern Republic at all and would have trouble getting citizenship in any case.

The problem is that Albanians are more likely to be counted as residents even if they have emigrated. Simply because they visit more often.

Its a mess honestly. One that only a proper honest census could fix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Are you suggesting ethnic Macedonians that are citizens of Macedonia cannot fly into the country and vote during elections?
I see and that was a dumb assumption for me to make, I'm sorry.

Sorry it took me awhile to respond, words don't come to me easily and I like to think out what I want say to before I say them.
FoxTale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 05:20 AM   #29
vicsinad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,133
vicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud ofvicsinad has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxTale View Post
All that stuff sounds pretty helpful and I am learning how to write out arguments in order to make myself sound better when I present my points. I know there are Macedonian communities in my area (Near Detroit) because I do see the flag once in a while, I just don't who they are.
I would like to drink rakija shots, but i'm unfortunately, I'm a few years under the drinking age.

Also, do you know of any good books on Macedonian history or culture? I know Risto Stefov's works are good, but I would like to know more.
Hey FoxTale,

Glad to see you're interested!

First, what kind of history are you interested in? I would start at Pollitecon's website because there are probably over 100 free books on Macedonian history/politics on the site. The range is from ancient history to modern day on a variety of topics, so it's worth a browse to see what piques your interest.

http://www.pollitecon.com/html/ebooks/Index.htm

Second, I am from the Detroit area. I have to say, the best way to get involved is to go to the Macedonian church on 19 Mile Road and Ryan. You can inquire into what programs there are (there used to be a group called MOYANA that I had helped form 15 years ago -- the Macedonian Orthodox Youth Association of North America -- but I don't think they're still kicking to the same extent as back then). I know it can be hard to meet young people on your average Sunday at the church. Still, Dedo Sinisha, head priest of the church knows, much about spiritual needs as well as our community -- don't be afraid to show up and ask him!

Still, there are a couple of groups you might be interested in.

First, there's the St. Mary's Macedonian Athletic Club. The group is very big and diverse, so you'll meet a lot of young people by getting involved if you're interested in sports. Their website is here:

https://www.stmaryac.org/

Also, this group (Macedonian American Student Association of Detroit) generally hosts get-togethers at nearby restaurants, cafes and etc. It may be worth following them or reaching out to them on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/masadetroit

Best of luck, and feel free to reach out to me with any questions! I know the area and community well, even though I'm currently in Vermont.
vicsinad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump