The savior no one is talking about

[Phoenix]

I was referring to the albanian rebel separatists. When they are given the green light again next time we can annihilate them. If the geopolitical changes I'm talking about happen. Don't try to change the context.



You can't be more delusional than this. Did albanians take Kosovo on their own? Did they defeat us in 2001? Did Zaev make the tapes by himself? Tell me who armed the albanian separatists. Tell me who is putting enormous pressure on Ivanov right now. Tell me who supported the colorful revolution. Tell me who trained UCK in 2001. Tell me who rescued UCK in 2001.

Ohhh... I know what it is... you said that you don't have anything personal against Russia but now it's clear... you have a soft spot for America don't you? Do you happen to live there Gocka? Or maybe you watch too much american TV and now you're a brainwashed clown.

If you don't tell me who trained, armed and then rescued UCK in 2001... if you don't tell me who is pressuring Ivanov right now... if you don't tell me which secret service made the tapes... if you don't tell me who heavily supported the colorful revolution... if you don't tell me who made Kosovo a country...if you don't tell me who is the biggest supporter and backer of Great Albania... if you don't tell me who is the biggest supporter of Zaev's government... then you can stop talking to me mate. I'm not going to reply to your braindead comments anymore.

You gotta love the hypocrisy of the fuckin' Americans...they preach law and order, democracy and human rights...when it suits them.

The unfolding catastrophe (for Macedonia) that is Zaev, is a typical, look the other way moment...

[Phoenix]

...THERE IS NO AMERICAN AGGRESSION...

...this is the sad worldview of pretty much every American out there...it's a view that is very myopic in its broadest sense.

[Niko777]

Wow.. I don't know what Putin was thinking back in 1958. The treacherous cunt might do it again.

So this whole idea of Russia being a protector of Macedonia is dependent on Putin being the President?

[vicsinad]

It wasn't Russia that sent troops to Macedonia in the early 1990s to secure the Macedonian border and deter potential Serbian aggression toward Macedonia. It was the US who did so, after the CIA warned of an imminent Serbian military invasion of Macedonia was about to take place. Russia at the time was probably more than excited for Serbia's potential quest to capture Macedonia.

For the past two decades, the US-Macedonia relationship has essentially rested on Macedonia becoming a NATO member. That's the primary goal for US in Macedonia: they are not seeking the destruction of the country or widespread destabilization. Macedonia has signaled to the US for two decades that it wants into NATO. The US is tired of the name issue, and pressuring Macedonia is the path of least resistance. Interference in Macedonia's internal affairs is more likely to secure Macedonia's NATO membership than forcing Greece to cave in.

Is it right? No. It's wrong and it needs to be stopped. But America's interference is narrow and particular and the people executing the policies view themselves and their agenda as a morally superior one. They have no reason to desire Macedonia's destruction. I do think US diplomats/policymakers are somewhat naive or oblivious, because they don't fully understand Greece's and Bulgaria's intentions with regard to Macedonia. If Macedonians want to stop this nonsense, then they need to stop being apathetic, intimidated, and passive. More importantly, they need to make the price of US interfering in Macedonia's democracy/internal affairs too high so US changes strategy. Right now, Macedonians are making it too easy for Americans.


Anyway, I'm not a fan of Bachev's reliance on Russia, whether it's an actual reliance or even the appearance of an alliance to attract a certain group of supporters/attention. And I don't want to elevate anyone to savior status who hasn't accomplished anything substantial yet. But if he's sincere and genuine and can motivate people to stand up to SDS/DPNE, then good luck to him and I wish him the best. I hope he and his party remain principled. Changing the mentality and attitude of an entire society is not easy, so even some positive momentum will be welcomed.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Is dependent on the current geopolitics of Russia. CURRENT.. not from 1950.

Which means they could change at a whim.

[Gocka]

I could say the same thing about the following worldview: all governments are really puppet regimes, the Jew banksters are the ones who really run the world. The USA is hell bent on toppling peace loving regimes like those of Saddam, Assad, Gaddafi,Miloshevic etc. the Taliban. All of that is morally equivalent to Russia invading Ukraine and Georgia for a land grab. Fuck the USA,instead lets get behind all the dictators and basket cases in world because they talk about cleansing the world of gays. That is a sad world view if you ask me.

I don't agree with everything the USA does in the world. A lot of it is naive, ill informed, or backfires, but for the most part its not sinister. The only people who think the USA is sinister are all the dictators and basket cases around the world. If the USA is so evil, why is pretty much every normally functioning democratic society around the world, including the one most of you are a part of, behind the USA in lockstep. Is the entire first world that naive? Who's judgment do I put more stock in, England, Australia, France, Japan, Germany, Italy, etc, or Russia, Libya, Iraq, Syria, North Korea. Yea the former is soooo evil, not the mass murders part of the latter group. Give me a break.

We have all went through this before. Go live in Russia or Syria, and then tell me who the evil side is.

...this is the sad worldview of pretty much every American out there...it's a view that is very myopic in its broadest sense.

[Gocka]

And what are the current geopolitics of Macedonia? How do they align with Russia's?

Its in Russia's interests to keep as many countries as possible out of NATO. So how is it in Macedonia's interests to be essentially the only country in Europe to be on the opposite side of NATO? So Russia would come to our aid if every single country around us was on the other side? Yeah that conflict would work out really good for Macedonia, if you wanted it to become a giant parking lot Or maybe Kim Jong Un, and Assad will come to our aid too

Macedonia shouldn't give up its identity in order to get into NATO, but it's downright silly to suggest being out of NATO is somehow safer or better for Macedonia's interests.

Being out of NATO we can deal with, but being out of NATO and being Russia's stooge will get Macedonia decimated. Why the fuck would we want to put ourselves in opposition to all of Europe with 2 million people and no army? So Russia can stick it to the west for about 5 minutes before they fuck us over?

Is dependent on the current geopolitics of Russia. CURRENT.. not from 1950.

[Spirit]

I could say the same thing about the following worldview: all governments are really puppet regimes, the Jew banksters are the ones who really run the world. The USA is hell bent on toppling peace loving regimes like those of Saddam, Assad, Gaddafi,Miloshevic etc. the Taliban. All of that is morally equivalent to Russia invading Ukraine and Georgia for a land grab. Fuck the USA,instead lets get behind all the dictators and basket cases in world because they talk about cleansing the world of gays. That is a sad world view if you ask me.

I don't agree with everything the USA does in the world. A lot of it is naive, ill informed, or backfires, but for the most part its not sinister. The only people who think the USA is sinister are all the dictators and basket cases around the world. If the USA is so evil, why is pretty much every normally functioning democratic society around the world, including the one most of you are a part of, behind the USA in lockstep. Is the entire first world that naive? Who's judgment do I put more stock in, England, Australia, France, Japan, Germany, Italy, etc, or Russia, Libya, Iraq, Syria, North Korea. Yea the former is soooo evil, not the mass murders part of the latter group. Give me a break.

We have all went through this before. Go live in Russia or Syria, and then tell me who the evil side is.

C’mon Gocka, the USA is not sinister?
What about Agent Orange, MK Ultra, The Gulf Of Tonkin Incident, the toppling of the democratically elected socialist prime minister of Chile Salvador Allende by CIA interference and who was replaced by the brutal dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet who murdered thousands of his own innocent citizens to cite a few examples and the list goes on and on.
The USA has committed the largest terrorist act against a civilian population in history when it dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in World War II. You could argue back that it was the only way to end the war with Japan but nevertheless hundreds of thousands innocent people were killed. Or what about the CIA trained Osama Bin Laden who was labeled a mujahadeen or “freedom fighter” when he fought for American Interests but labeled a terrorist when he turned the tables against America, his methods were the same whether he was a mujahadeen or terrorist, namely he committed terrorist acts against innocent civilians. I certainly don’t condone what happened on 9/11 and the point I am making is that when he was a CIA trained mujahadeen he committed terrorist acts against innocents and yet you say there is nothing sinister about American interests or policy.
The list goes on Gocka and you have rose tinted glasses when it comes to America, the truth of the matter that all oppressors, conquerors, occupiers throughout history have had sinister intentions to maintain their power.
I respect your views and generally find your posts smart and level headed but as stated above when it comes to America you do look through rose tinted glasses

[Big Bad Sven]

Hasn't Russia on several occasions flip flop when it comes to its foreign policy towards Macedonians? The best example being in 1947 when it told Bulgaria to recognize the Macedonian minority in Pirin Macedonia and then in 1958 they told them to reverse its recognition and pretend Macedonians never existed.

Not defending Russia but from what I understand in regards to the recognizing the Macedonian people after WW2 and then reversing this decision:

Firstly, whether its splitting hairs but it was the USSR and not Russia during this time. Some may say this almost the same thing but if you look who was in power (mostly communist Jews) then maybe it isn’t so clear cut. But anyway its no big deal on this discussion.

Secondly, I believe Russia/USSR supported recognizing the Macedonian people as separate because at that time Tito and Stalin where close, and both planned on getting Aegean Macedonia from Greece and supported the communists (mainly Macedonians) in the Greek civil war – this would increase Russian influence into the middle east though a then loyal yugoslavia. During this period there was even talk or Pirin Macedonia and the Albanian parts going to Macedonia. When tito and stalin split the USSR became anti Yugoslavian so it ceased supporting the communists in Greece and was aggressive to Yugoslavia. The USSR needed a loyal dog in the Balkans and with albania, yugoslaiva and Romania turning away from the USSR the only option was Bulgaria. From this point on Bulgaria became the loyal lapdog of the Balkans and the USSR towed the Bulgarian line in regards to Macedonia. So essentially Macedonians became a victim of the world and regional powers. I have been hard on Macedonians lately, but this is one of the rare occasions where we were genuine victims of things out of our control and after giving it our all for a noble cause.

I am not pro-Russian and have criticised them a lot for their lack of support for the MOC – but I don’t think it’s fair to criticise Russia on this piece of time in history.

Basically Russia (or USSR at that time) must do what is best for its country and people. If it means stepping on a few toes or walking over people then so be it. Just like American has been doing very well in modern times. And there is nothing wrong with that. Besides a few rare cases, there are no friends in politics just useful allies for that time and moment. France and Germany where brutal enemies for 100s of years but today they are close allies. Macedonia needs to do the same, especially towards its neighbours and the world powers – it will be harder because of the mess Macedonia is in now and that it is a small country – but I can still be done.

I agree with Vic and like I said earlier – Macedonia must not be a submissive partner with its allies. It needs to be like Greece and Hungary and play the powers against each other for its benefit. The only nations we should be “nice” to and give some sacrifices to are Croatia and maybe Hungary – two nations that have supported Macedonia for a long time.

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia must not be a submissive partner with its allies. It needs to be like Greece and Hungary and play the powers against each other for its benefit. The only nations we should be “nice” to and give some sacrifices to are Croatia and maybe Hungary – two nations that have supported Macedonia for a long time.

I agree with you BBS. But let's not forget Ukraine and its arguable SOLE assistance in 2001. And perhaps we shouldn't be dwelling on that if we rate Russian support as useful.

In support of Russia, I submit this really good presentation by RT (which mocks the USA and EU) on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo_c_c5BTkw

In support of USA, I submit that any and all superpowers will do terrible things to benefit nobody but their own nation. The reason we hear about USA's more terrible actions is because it is in English and not everybody is believing the propagandist media nowadays.

[Gocka]

Like I said, I don't agree with everything, but tell me which country on earth is infallible? Also thank you for the half compliment

Agent orange (operation ranch hand) was meant to cause mass deforestation in order to reduce the usable cover of the opposition forces that used guerrilla tactics. In comparison to the things that get done in wars, that is on the mild side. Again, don't agree with it but the general American reaction to the Vietnam war was appall. It caused such a backlash that it cause anti government terrorism.

MK ultra: the government tried to use mind control to force things such as confessions, and I'm sure other things as well. Once it became public the program was shut down. Again don't agree with it but do you see a pattern here.

Gulf of Tonkin: Debatable but the US very likely faked the incidents to give themselves pretext to enter more directly into the conflict. The Vietnam war was a disgusting conflict and was fueled by anti Communist fervor, but who was on the opposite side of that conflict fueling the fighting? Russia. I think history proved that communist dictatorships were not good for anyone. The US shouldn't have been part of that conflict but what was Russia's reason?

Chile: was already falling apart and their political system was falling apart. The USA took advantage of that situation and assisted in the coup that ensued, but a coup would have happened anyway, the USA just wanted to have a say and influence in the matter. In the end that backfired when Pinochet decided to relinquish power after the coup. Again, not something I support but like in most cases there is important context there that gets ignored people conspiracy theorist who always want to see what they want to see.

I am not an American apologist, go through this forum and you will find dozens of posts where I lambaste American foreign policy, particularly the Iraq war. What I can not stand is when people try to blur reality and try and draw moral equivalency where there is none. Dropping the A bomb on Japan was reprehensible, but they were brutal fascists who committed many atrocities, and this is in the context of WW2 where the likes of Russia and Germany killed millions. My point here is that if you look at what the context, and what other were doing, the USA and its allies usually stand out as more just.

If you live in the USA you realize its almost impossible for the government to be that sinister because first the people are the exact opposite of that. Second the American bureaucracy is so vast and has so many interests and participants that it is impossible to unilaterally execute such sinister master plans. individuals do bad things, and make bad choices, but in general as a whole when the majority become aware of such acts, they are stopped. This is not just the USA mind you. This is how most "western" countries function and that is why you can not draw moral equivalency between them and actors such as Russia, or Syria. The world is generally a dark place, no one is perfect, but I think a lot of this hysteria comes from most people not realizing what the rest of the world is really like.

Regardless this conversation was not about that, I didn't choose to make it about that. It was someone else who insisted on inserting Russia into Macedonian matters. My very first response was that I want Macedonia to be independent, from Russia and OTHERS.

C’mon Gocka, the USA is not sinister?
What about Agent Orange, MK Ultra, The Gulf Of Tonkin Incident, the toppling of the democratically elected socialist prime minister of Chile Salvador Allende by CIA interference and who was replaced by the brutal dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet who murdered thousands of his own innocent citizens to cite a few examples and the list goes on and on.
The USA has committed the largest terrorist act against a civilian population in history when it dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in World War II. You could argue back that it was the only way to end the war with Japan but nevertheless hundreds of thousands innocent people were killed. Or what about the CIA trained Osama Bin Laden who was labeled a mujahadeen or “freedom fighter” when he fought for American Interests but labeled a terrorist when he turned the tables against America, his methods were the same whether he was a mujahadeen or terrorist, namely he committed terrorist acts against innocent civilians. I certainly don’t condone what happened on 9/11 and the point I am making is that when he was a CIA trained mujahadeen he committed terrorist acts against innocents and yet you say there is nothing sinister about American interests or policy.
The list goes on Gocka and you have rose tinted glasses when it comes to America, the truth of the matter that all oppressors, conquerors, occupiers throughout history have had sinister intentions to maintain their power.
I respect your views and generally find your posts smart and level headed but as stated above when it comes to America you do look through rose tinted glasses

Mindless provacations? Why does me bad mouthing Russia serve as a provacation?

Your understanding of geopolitics is the same as most Macedonians. I know there is a lot to learn from the seat of your favorite kladilnica or kafic, but try books for a change.

You insisted on Russia being part of this conversation. You labeled Bachev as a savior, like the leader of a cult. You insisted that Macedonia can't function without Russia's support. I never once mentioned the USA, until you insisted that Macedonia needed protection from the USA by Russia. I on the other hand on multiple occasions said that Russia is besides the point, that the focus should be on Macedonians taking responsibility for their own destiny and not looking towards yet another master. I was the one who insisted that Macedonians should be Pro Macedonian ONLY, while you insisted that we should be Pro Russian in order to be Pro Macedonian, a contradiction in itself.

So who is the one who doesn't care about his own people you brainwashed Ruski stooge.

Why don't you fuck off. Your only posts have been about glorifying Bachev, and convincing us to kiss Russian ass.

I'm not letting you off the hook that easy. If you are so fucking smart and well versed in geopolitics, put down your Skopsko for five seconds and tell me how it is in Macedonia's interests to be the only country in Europe to be outside of NATO and rely on a single pariah state for its protection? You told me to fuck off, because you realize when it's spelled out in plain and simple terms that it sounds completely idiotic to advocate for that position. The only party who would advocate for Macedonia to be put in that position is a fucking idiot, or a Russian, have your pick friend.

I like how you ignored my previous questions and resorted to mindless provocations.

Your understanding of current geopolitics is poor.. and you are very biased. I'm not planning to lecture you. Nothing I say will change your mind.
We've allowed you to deter us from the topic for far too long now. America is more important to you than your own people. So to keep it short and simple: Fuck off.

Russia will not allow that to happen? How the fuck would you know. No one in the world is able to telegraph what Russia will do, but you can? You are much more obsessed with what Russia is doing or wants to do than what Macedonia should do, except to kiss Russia ass that is. The American government doesn't know what Trump discussed with Putin, but you do, pretty impressive Stefan. Turkey(Islamic dictatorship) China (Communist dictatorship) Russia (Alcoholic dictatorship) This is who you want Macedonia to throw their lot in with? Please tell me you are Russian, I can't handle the reality of Macedonians being this pathetic right now.

More chulushpar eden. These prospective allies of ours don't let there OWN people be free, and they are going to guarantee our freedom?

Yea guys, if this is the best we can do, we are fucked.

(Turkey) (China) (Guess who)

No they can't change at a whim. Too much has been invested in this project and Russia is only beginning. They will not allow Macedonia, Serbia and Bosnia to fall under western control. In the last Putin-Trump meeting Putin was persuading Trump to leave the balkan.
The Chinese have bought all major ports in Greece, and Turkey is slowly turning to Russia and BRICS as well. Expect things to get more spicy in the following few years.

[vicsinad]

Who's judgment do I put more stock in, England, Australia, France, Japan, Germany, Italy, etc, .

Nearly every one of these nations has contributed to or joined the US in nearly every major conflict the US has been in since the end of WW2. So, by association and explicit support, they are evil and sinister as well.

[Phoenix]

Nearly every one of these nations (England, Australia, France, Japan, Germany, Italy, etc) has contributed to or joined the US in nearly every major conflict the US has been in since the end of WW2. So, by association and explicit support, they are evil and sinister as well.

It is interesting to note that the USA has significant military and intelligence assets in all of the countries mentioned above, with the possible exception being France(?)...the Americans have a history of coercing their "allies" to tow the line...Australia has experienced this side of American 'benevolence" previously...

Here's some interesting reading for you...this is what America does, if they believe their foreign policy goals are being challenged by friend or foe...I wouldn't expect that you or 99.999% of Americans would have a clue about this...and Australia has been one of the USA's most loyal allies...image sitting a splinter width or more on the other side of the fence...

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/gough-whitlam/gough-whitlams-pine-gap-problem/news-story/d0fd36dc9e7e7f7c9c78f7b099a5a554

[vicsinad]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;175805]

It is interesting to note that the USA has significant military and intelligence assets in all of the countries mentioned above, with the possible exception being France(?)...the Americans have a history of coercing their "allies" to tow the line...Australia has experienced this side of American 'benevolence" previously...

This is true. And most of those countries invited the US into their countries. Even in non-allied nations that the US invaded and occupied, there are millions of people in those countries that want the US there to help them fight against the other side.

Still, here we are on this forum blasting Macedonians in Macedonia for not being able to stick up for themselves against Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Albania, USA, Germany, England, France and others; meanwhile, Australia, England, France and other countries won't even / can't even stick up for themselves, or come together to stick up for themselves, against the evil Americans? Well, then Macedonia surely has no hope if all of them are hopeless!

Here's some interesting reading for you...this is what America does, if they believe their foreign policy goals are being challenged by friend or foe...I wouldn't expect that you or 99.999% of Americans would have a clue about this...and Australia has been one of the USA's most loyal allies...image sitting a splinter width or more on the other side of the fence...

[url]https://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/gough-whitlam/gough-whitlams-pine-gap-problem/news-story/d0fd36dc9e7e7f7c9c78f7b099a5a554[/url

I can't access that link, but I'm very familiar with US tactics. However, there is no doubt in my mind that Canada, France, England, Australia, Germany and Japan feel that their interests are better protected being aligned with USA than not being aligned with them.

[Risto the Great]

Stefan, imagine a smarter Macedonia that could really align USA's interests with Macedonia. Imagine a Macedonia full of people who understand how much smarter the Albanians are at diplomacy than them.

I'm sure Russia would prefer to support Albanians over Macedonians but they have no choice. It's only Macedonia and Servia for them or nothing.