Genetics and DNA of Balkan Populations

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Constellation
    Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 217

    Genetics and DNA of Balkan Populations

    I have been looking at the eupedia haplogroups chart. Here is what I have seen:

    Ethnicities by haplogroup (simplified - subclades used for specifics)

    E1b1b: North African, Near Eastern, Balkanic

    Albania: 27.5
    Bosnia-Herzegovina: 12
    Bosnian Serbs: 22.5
    Bulgaria: 23.5
    Cyprus: 20
    Northern Greece: 20.5
    Central Greece: 29.5
    South Greece: 27
    Crete: 11
    Aegean islands: 22
    Kosovo: 47.5
    Macedonia 21.5
    Serbia: 18

    R1a: Balto-Slavic, Germanic, Indo-Iranian

    Albania: 9
    Bosnia-Herzegovina: 15
    Bosnian Croats: 12
    Bosnian Serbs: 13.5
    Bulgaria: 17
    North Greece: 18
    Central Greece: 11
    South Greece: 10.5
    Crete: 9
    Aegean: 10
    Macedonia: 13.5
    Serbia: 16

    J1: Caucasian, Mesopotamian, Semitic

    Albania: 2
    North Greece: 2.5
    Central Greece 3.5
    South Greece: 1
    Macedonia: 2

    J2: Greco-Anatolian, Mesopotamian, Caucasian

    Albania: 19.5
    Bulgaria: 11
    Northern Greece: 15
    Central Greece: 19
    South Greece: 19.5
    Crete: 34
    Aegean Greece: 20
    Kosovo: 16.5
    Macedonia: 14
    Serbia: 8

    Frequency tables showing the percentage for each Y-DNA haplogroup by country and region in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa.
  • Constellation
    Member
    • Jul 2014
    • 217

    #2
    The eupedia information seems pretty similar to other data I have seen, though the results are not 100% accurate, as the sample populations of some of the countries were quite low.

    It is somewhat surprising that Bulgaria is higher in R1a than Serbia.

    Albanian origins are very interesting.

    Based on the available data, there is not much difference in the southern Balkans. There are far more similarities than discrepancies.

    Comment

    • Tomche Makedonche
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2011
      • 1123

      #3
      Curiosity is getting the better of me Nashio, couldn’t help but to continue perusing the site and all of a sudden I came across this?



      and then this thread:

      Let's clear this up once and for all. There has been evidence of all sorts displayed for both sides of the argument, I would like to see all of the information consolidated here, so we can validate this argument or discard it altogether. If anybody has any material on the matter, please post it here. Black Athena and other


      I mean there’s quite a lot of information to take in but the evidence seems to suggest that these guys at the southern most tip of the Haemus peninsula were originally Black / African???, this is starting to go way over my head now, I mean quite clearly through your posts you seem to be establishing the unbroken continuity of the Slavic character of the inhabitants of Macedonia since the beginning of time, which, if no one has said it so far, thank you, while it appears that we might not agree with everytihing your proposing we all appreciate your efforts on the subject, but these other guys… just wow

      What are your thoughts on this?
      Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 07-31-2014, 07:21 PM.
      “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

      Comment

      • Tomche Makedonche
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2011
        • 1123

        #4
        I mean seriously, when you take into account the evidence that’s been presented so far regarding these philosophical boy lovers on the southern most tip of the Haemus peninsula, with an ethnic heritage which possibly seems to have consisted of Slavs, Albanians (here’s the link to the initial questions posed in case you missed them http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...?t=7861&page=3 )and now African’s… surely there’s no doubt that this, what can only be best described as a “Mongrel” race, south west of Grevena couldn’t possibly had any links or realistic claims whatsoever to Macedonia, be it from an ancient or modern perspective right?, I mean in light of your research of the slavs, it would be reasonable to conclude that even the Slovenians would have a more righteous claim to Macedonia and the Macedonian kingdom then those boy loving – philosophising - mongrel race on the southern most tip of the Haemus peninsula that refer to themselves today as Greeks right?

        What are your thoughts on this?
        “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

        Comment

        • Philosopher
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1003

          #5
          An Answer to Poligiros

          Originally posted by Poligiros
          Do you remember other reputable studies that show a near similarity between yourselves and modern day Bulgarians regardless?

          If RoMacedonians embraced the truth and stopped trying to alternate facts that are written in stone, you would set yourselves free.
          I had a private discussion with Poligiros, who related the following details to me. I told him I would post studies directly out of Macedonia and Bulgaria on a new thread on the forum. For the record, there is one study out of Macedonia, which the Greek government refused to participate in, that shows Macedonians are genetically similar to other Balkan people. This is no surprise. But the Internet Greeks use this study to confirm that Greeks are separate from its neighbors, and that Macedonians are not. This is bogus of course, as Greek DNA was not part of the study, as the Greek government refused to participate.

          And to answer your question, Poligiros, no I have not seen reputable studies “that show a near similarity between yourselves and modern day Bulgarians...”. Please cite it in this thread.

          Here is the first study out of Macedonia in 2004:

          The Macedonian population is of special interest for HLA anthropological study in the light of unanswered questions regarding its origin and relationship with other populations, especially the neighbouring Balkanians. Two studies have been performed to examine HLA molecular polymorphism in the Macedonian population, so far. The present study is the first to be performed in Macedonia using high-resolution sequence-based method for direct HLA typing. The study included 158 unrelated healthy volunteers of Macedonian origin and nationality, having a Christian Orthodox religion. After the simultaneous amplification of exon-2 on both HLA-DRB1 alleles, DNA sequencing was used for genotype assignment. In the 158 samples analysed, all 316 alleles were typed and a total of 29 different DRB1 alleles were detected, with DRB1*1601 being the most frequent allele (14.9%), followed by DRB1*1104 (13.9%). A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree.
          The study clearly links Greeks in the same cluster. Bulgaria was not mentioned. Not sure why.

          The Macedonian population is of special interest for HLA anthropological study in the light of unanswered questions regarding its origin and relationship with other populations, especially the neighbouring Balkanians. Two studies have been performed to examine HLA molecular polymorphism in the Maced …


          Here is a 2002 study out of Bulgaria:

          In the present study we analyzed for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by high-resolution typing methods in the Bulgarian population. Comparisons with other populations of common historical background were performed. Most HLA-A, -B, -DRB alleles and haplotypes observed in the Bulgarian population are also common in Europe. Alleles and haplotypes considered as Mediterranean are relatively frequent in the Bulgarian population. Observation of Oriental alleles confirms the contribution of Asians to the genetic diversity of Bulgarians. The use of high-resolution typing methods allowed to identify allele variants rare for Europeans that were correlated to specific population groups. Phylogenetic and correspondence analyses showed that Bulgarians are more closely related to Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians than to other European populations and Middle Eastern people living near the Mediterranean. The HLA-A,-B,-DRB1 allele and haplotype diversity defined by high-resolution DNA methods confirm that the Bulgarian population is characterized by features of southern European anthropological type with some influence of additional ethnic groups. Implementation of high-resolution typing methods allows a significantly wider spectrum of HLA variation to be detected, including rare alleles and haplotypes, and further clarifies the origin of Bulgarians.
          In the present study we analyzed for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by high-resolution typing methods in the Bulgarian population. Comparisons with other populations of common historical background were performed. Most HLA-A, -B, -DRB alleles and haplotypes observed in …


          Bulgaria is close to Macedonia, Greece, and Romania.

          I do not see the statement “near similarity” anywhere.

          So there you have it Poligiros.
          Last edited by Philosopher; 08-18-2014, 06:27 PM.

          Comment

          • Gocka
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 2306

            #6
            I don't know what he is on about since every single study I am aware of claims that the south Balkan peoples are all very similar in DNA make up. In fact the major divergences start when going further down into Greece, where the inhabitants have a far greater prevalence of middle Eastern and African origins.

            There has not been a single study that has claimed that Macedonians from ROM and Aegean occupied Macedonia are genetically very different form the Greeks in Northern and Central Greece. Greeks usually do not like to talk about DNA for the reasons above.

            One day when DNA studies are even more advanced and widely accepted we will have an even stronger case against the Neo Greeks.

            Comment

            • Agamoi Thytai
              Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 198

              #7
              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
              In fact the major divergences start when going further down into Greece, where the inhabitants have a far greater prevalence of middle Eastern and African origins.
              If you are talking about the infamous Arnaiz-Villena genetic study, its results have been rejected by prominent genetists on the ground it lacks scientific merit because he used only a single one genetic marker, something that is considered as major error in the field of genetic studies:

              Not to note that among the genetists that assisted Arnaiz Villena in that study, there are three Macedonians.

              Hmm, was it just a case of Macedonian bias or something else...? I think this might shed some light on the mystery:
              Spanish immunologist Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, the author of a paper on the genetic origins of Palestinians, has been suspended without pay from the Hospital Doce de Octubre in Madrid, where he heads the department of immunology and molecular biology, after being charged with embezzlement of funds. Dr Arnaiz-Villena, president of Spain's National Commission of Immunology, was the author of a polemical paper on the genetic origins of Palestinians that was retracted and deleted from records last autumn. In it he said that some Palestinians lived in concentration camps. The embezzlement charges refer to Dr Arnaiz's “purchase of products not used in his department's healthcare activities; purchase of hospital products used in healthcare activities but in quantities much greater than needed; falsification of statistical data apparently to justify purchases; …

              According to Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza,one of the most prominent population genetists of 20th century,modern Greeks are genetically more closer to Italians,while their biggest distance is from the ex-Yougoslav people.

              Genetic researches that were conducted by other prominent genetists proved that Greeks haven't any African genes and are closely related to Italians, Spaniards and other Mediterranean populations:


              Even a Macedonian genetic study proves Greek dna has nothing to do with Africa.

              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
              One day when DNA studies are even more advanced and widely accepted we will have an even stronger case against the Neo Greeks.
              Forget that obsession with dna and genetic studies as a proof of someones ethnicity. The last ones who did it were the Nazis
              "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
              Polybius, Histories, 9.35

              Comment

              • Philosopher
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1003

                #8
                I agree that the sub-Saharan origins of Greeks is inaccurate.

                I think it is important to point out a few things:

                1. Data pertaining to genetic studies constantly change from one study to another. This can be for a number of reasons, including different people sampled. Populations may appear homogenous because of common language, but genetically they may be very different.

                2. Genetic studies (I suspect) are unduly influenced by politics.

                3. In regard to your citation suggesting that Greeks are closer to Italians and Austrians (and central Europeans) than Yugoslavians. I would state that Yugoslavians is a nebulous word and it is very doubtful based on the totally of the data that Italians and Austrians are closer to Greeks than Macedonians.

                In all instances, it is best for everyone to do their own personal genetic study, and not completely rely on population studies for exact data.

                It may be possible, for example, that some of us may have genetics different than our homeland.

                Comment

                • Philosopher
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1003

                  #9
                  I would add the following.

                  Greeks such as Cretans and Greek Cypriots are very high in the haplogroup J2, which would indicate a south west Asian origin, not African.

                  Comment

                  • Philosopher
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1003

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
                    Forget that obsession with dna and genetic studies as a proof of someones ethnicity. The last ones who did it were the Nazis
                    All ethnicities are social constructs. Genetic studies will never prove ethnicity. Moreover, all human beings are genetically related, so genetic studies are not consistent with Nazism.

                    Genetic studies can establish the evolution of our DNA. The purpose of citing them is not to demonstrate or to prove one is Greek or one is Macedonian; the purpose is to show the likely origin of our lineages and the most likely residence in modern day states.

                    The Pathan study referenced in this forum is a perfect example of this.

                    Comment

                    • Gocka
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2012
                      • 2306

                      #11
                      DNA studies do not prove ethnicity, but they are relevant in this case because Neo Greeks claim that the inhabitants of ROM are Slavs who migrated from North East Europe, and have no connection to ancient populations of the area, this has been proved false by every DNA study done on the Balkan populous.

                      What is Nazism you piece of garbage is denying people the right to self determination, racism, and ethnically cleansing the real Macedonians from Aegean occupied Macedonia. That is Nazism.

                      We are the indigenous peoples of the Aegean and ROM, and DNA evidence in multiple studies proves that. Another 10 years from now it will be commonly accepted, and will mark the beginning of the end for your fake Nazi like nation.

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #12
                        Ok if we forget about genetic markers of cna.That doesn't explain the dark features of some greeks looking like iraquis,pakis,egyptians etc.Agamoi do you remember the black athena.At one point greeks did have a black influence to the sudanese of afrika.
                        Today if we look at the greeks whichever way one concludes even the p[opulation is mixed
                        anything BUT greek.Some one said there was more slavic in them than greek.Given all these scenarios one will conclude that as much as the greek govt wants to connect with the ancients there is no connect between them.
                        But on the other side of the coin The macedonians do have a connect with the ancients despite the bs rhetoric that the greeks are the macedonians.The macedonians are a different race to the greeks they were not the same race of people.Don't forget a phillhelene is NOT the same race of people even though they wish to appropriate them.
                        So how does one say on one hand the greeks are the same people of today a sad fact its not the same people.
                        Whichever you look at it the macedonians were identified and are similar to all old eropeans that means they been around for a long time to their greek counterparts who were considered as newcomers to the balkans.
                        Last edited by George S.; 08-18-2014, 04:42 PM.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • Philosopher
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1003

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
                          Not to note that among the genetists that assisted Arnaiz Villena in that study, there are three Macedonians.

                          Hmm, was it just a case of Macedonian bias or something else...? I think this might shed some light on the mystery:
                          Spanish immunologist Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, the author of a paper on the genetic origins of Palestinians, has been suspended without pay from the Hospital Doce de Octubre in Madrid, where he heads the department of immunology and molecular biology, after being charged with embezzlement of funds. Dr Arnaiz-Villena, president of Spain's National Commission of Immunology, was the author of a polemical paper on the genetic origins of Palestinians that was retracted and deleted from records last autumn. In it he said that some Palestinians lived in concentration camps. The embezzlement charges refer to Dr Arnaiz's “purchase of products not used in his department's healthcare activities; purchase of hospital products used in healthcare activities but in quantities much greater than needed; falsification of statistical data apparently to justify purchases; …

                          According to Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza,one of the most prominent population genetists of 20th century,modern Greeks are genetically more closer to Italians,while their biggest distance is from the ex-Yougoslav people.


                          Even a Macedonian genetic study proves Greek dna has nothing to do with Africa.
                          Agamoi, you sure are cunning. First, you imply that the Arnaiz Villena study is suspect because three Macedonian scientists were involved, when you have absolutely no evidence that they interpolated the study. Then you imply the lead researcher was dishonest. This is old news man. The investigation pertaining to Villena's research has nothing to do with his studies, even though it probably has everything to do with his studies. Figure it out.

                          Next, you proceed to cite the Macedonian study I referenced in the OP to show Greeks are not related to Ethiopians. Well, if Macedonians had an agenda, why would they not interpolate this study as well? Why corrupt good research in a Spanish University, where the Macedonian researchers were a minority, and then be honest in a research study in Macedonia?

                          Even if the study was inaccurate about the sub-Saharan genetic link, there is no reason to doubt that the information pertaining to Macedonia is wrong. The research is solid.

                          Macedonians are part of the older Mediterranean cluster of nations.

                          You can't have it both ways.

                          Last, I would like to point to everyone the absurdity of the Greek and Western position. We all know Greece is always differentiated from the rest of the Balkans. Politically, Greece is not part of "eastern Europe". Macedonia, Serbia, Bulgaria, et al. are. Geographically, Greece is part of eastern Europe too, but not politically.

                          Greece is part of the "West".

                          Some do not even place Greece as part of the Balkans.

                          So is it any wonder that both Greeks and Westerners would like to give the impression that Greeks are NOT related to other Balkan people, but instead related to other Mediterranean people, like Italians and Spaniards. And of course, we cannot forget the Austrians and Germans, the main supporters of the Greek state.

                          How could Greeks, a pure Mediterranean people, be related to people who came in the region in the 6th century? They can't!

                          Ah, but they can! And they are!

                          Greeks are very similar, much more similar, to Macedonians and Bulgarians than central Europeans.

                          You say Greeks are related to Italians? Yes, this is true. But so are Macedonians! It is in the study referenced in the OP!
                          Last edited by Philosopher; 08-18-2014, 06:14 PM.

                          Comment

                          • Philosopher
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1003

                            #14
                            Originally posted by George S. View Post
                            Ok if we forget about genetic markers of cna.That doesn't explain the dark features of some greeks looking like iraquis,pakis,egyptians etc.Agamoi do you remember the black athena.At one point greeks did have a black influence to the sudanese of afrika.
                            Today if we look at the greeks whichever way one concludes even the p[opulation is mixed
                            anything BUT greek.Some one said there was more slavic in them than greek.Given all these scenarios one will conclude that as much as the greek govt wants to connect with the ancients there is no connect between them.
                            But on the other side of the coin The macedonians do have a connect with the ancients despite the bs rhetoric that the greeks are the macedonians.The macedonians are a different race to the greeks they were not the same race of people.Don't forget a phillhelene is NOT the same race of people even though they wish to appropriate them.
                            So how does one say on one hand the greeks are the same people of today a sad fact its not the same people.
                            Whichever you look at it the macedonians were identified and are similar to all old eropeans that means they been around for a long time to their greek counterparts who were considered as newcomers to the balkans.
                            There is some connection to Africa, though what and how much, is difficult to state.
                            Last edited by Philosopher; 08-18-2014, 06:26 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Poligiros
                              Banned
                              • Mar 2014
                              • 121

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                              I had a private discussion with Poligiros, who related the following details to me. I told him I would post studies directly out of Macedonia and Bulgaria on a new thread on the forum. For the record, there is one study out of Macedonia, which the Greek government refused to participate in, that shows Macedonians are genetically similar to other Balkan people. This is no surprise. But the Internet Greeks use this study to confirm that Greeks are separate from its neighbors, and that Macedonians are not. This is bogus of course, as Greek DNA was not part of the study, as the Greek government refused to participate.

                              And to answer your question, Poligiros, no I have not seen reputable studies “that show a near similarity between yourselves and modern day Bulgarians...”. Please cite it in this thread.

                              Here is the first study out of Macedonia in 2004:



                              The study clearly links Greeks in the same cluster. Bulgaria was not mentioned. Not sure why.

                              The Macedonian population is of special interest for HLA anthropological study in the light of unanswered questions regarding its origin and relationship with other populations, especially the neighbouring Balkanians. Two studies have been performed to examine HLA molecular polymorphism in the Maced …


                              Here is a 2002 study out of Bulgaria:



                              In the present study we analyzed for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by high-resolution typing methods in the Bulgarian population. Comparisons with other populations of common historical background were performed. Most HLA-A, -B, -DRB alleles and haplotypes observed in …


                              Bulgaria is close to Macedonia, Greece, and Romania.

                              I do not see the statement “near similarity” anywhere.

                              So there you have it Poligiros.


                              Philosopher,

                              Once again, thanks for enabling us to have a normal conversation in private. I don't want to discuss on forum level because some people have extreme views that are not supported by any ethical evidence, and aren't interested in conversation, rather throwing wild assertions and attempting to create arguments.

                              I was referring to the iGenea results and studies that you posted in a private email. These have been debunked many times by genealogists - I found many threads replying to the deceptive and biased results (google). I mentioned that iGenea pearler as an example posted on various Macedonian forums about the Ethiopian link of modern Greeks etc.

                              In addition, when you asked me for a personal opinion, I did state that I believe the native populace of southern modern day RoMacedonia could have genetic similarities to modern Greece, however the northern and eastern parts would probably not. As for reputable studies “that show a near similarity between yourselves and modern day Bulgarians, you have taken my opinion out of context, I stated the eastern populace of RoMacedonia would have similar DNA to modern Bulgarians, which even your nation claims the similarities of these people who many of you believe are "lost Macedonians".

                              In conclusion, in private reply to your Qs, I stated IN MY OPINION that around 15% of your nation contains ancient Macedonian lands, and majority of RoMacedonia is located on ancient Paeonian lands. As we all agree, the Balkans are mixed and using Ottoman statistics in Aegean Macedonia from early 1900s, there are several predominant ethnic groups, hence one cannot claim a monopoly on modern Macedonia name. Through substantial historical verification most would agree, ancient Macedonian history is clearly a Hellenic legacy.

                              Regards.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X