Regime Change: Will Macedonia be Removed from the Map in 2018?

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    Forming a Government in exile is still incredibly viable and principled in this current political environment.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Pelagonija
      Member
      • Mar 2017
      • 533

      How about an independence movement..?

      Macedonia from Ohrid to Kriva Palanka via veles and Prilep.. Since the politicians in MKD love the EU and the Albs more than their own people. Skopje can get its electricity, food and taxes from kosovo and Albania as as against Rek and the rest of the Macedonian populace..

      We will give strumica to Bulgaria too in case Zaev does a sneaky..

      Comment

      • Starling
        Member
        • Sep 2017
        • 153

        how do you establish a government in exile in this situation?

        Comment

        • Tomche Makedonche
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2011
          • 1123

          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
          I don't think our destiny is in the hands of Macedonia's leaders, but I do think that our identity is in the hands of Macedonia's people, who have chosen to part ways with it.

          If a domestic population of 1.5 million Macedonians are unwilling to take control of their own country, I'm not sure what real influence a diaspora can have from 20,000km away. Even when I thought there was still opportunity, at best it was only through intellectual and moral leadership (perhaps even financial backing at key points) that I thought the diaspora could contribute. But the people on the ground have to do the heavy lifting - reality requires it.
          My view on the Diaspora’s influence in RoM is consistent with yours, however the destiny of the diaspora’s identity is what I’m curious about and is something I think would be interesting to delve into.

          The questions I am posing are not meant to be an interrogation (particular to any of the individuals I am responding to), I’m genuinely interested in exploring this concept amongst all of us here.

          I guess honestly, the reasoning for this derives form the fact that until now, I have never genuinely considered a climate existing within RoM where the real possibility of an identity change could succeed, but taking into account moves such as the MOC’s proposal to fall under the wing of the Bulgarian Church, implementation of national bilingualism, and Zajko’s clear globalist/European agenda, all progressing without any resounding backlash within the populace, but rather with a response of greater support as is evident with SDS’s favourable results at the local elections, its hard not to see such events as indicators of such a favourable climate possibly coming to fruition.

          The move by the MOC to fall under the banner of the Bulgarian church has sparked discussions regarding the possible formation of an Independent church for the Diaspora should that event occur. This is one of the first times I can remember where the concept of division has been looked at favorably as a solution, which really only came to exist when the prospect of actual abandonment by the MOC of its identity became real. Whether such an act is possible or can be successful is hard to tell at this point, you only need to look at the Australian church dispute to see how the community can be utterly divided on such an issue, i.e. with a lot supporting Petar’s position based on nothing other than the philosophy of “needing to stay united” and that “there should be only one church” (admittedly remaining ignorant on the true reasons and details behind the issue). Nevertheless, I can see this idea of dividing from the MOC and forming an independent church as a result of such an event to be seen generally as a reasonable step to take amongst the diaspora (which I boil down to being akin to a natural survival instinct). What I find interesting is that it is only seen that way when it is on the basis of being reactive to an event. Essentially the concept of division only becomes a reasonable option or is viewed favorably when we are reactive.

          So with that in mind, should the Republic come to the point where they accept a name change (which there appears to now be real indicators of a climate for such an event to be forming), will the concept of some form of real division at that point become to be seen as a reasonable reaction amongst the diaspora?, does anyone think this could be a possible realistic reaction/outcome if such an event (name change) took place?.

          Ultimately the prospect of a name change should be fought at all costs (not disputing that in any way shape or form, it is the priority), but taking into account the real possibility it may occur, if division is interpreted as reasonable and as a realistic outcome when we are reactive to such an event, why can’t the concept be interpreted as reasonable if we choose to be proactive for such an event?, are there any benefits of actually being proactive for such an outcome?

          The question running around in my head is if the Diaspora can appear to choose its own destiny as a reaction to the MOC’s abandonment of its identity, can it actually choose its own destiny in the event of RoM’s abandonment of its identity?, and if not, why not?, what are the aspects or obstacles to prevent us from doing this?
          “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
            The question running around in my head is if the Diaspora can appear to choose its own destiny as a reaction to the MOC’s abandonment of its identity, can it actually choose its own destiny in the event of RoM’s abandonment of its identity?, and if not, why not?, what are the aspects or obstacles to prevent us from doing this?
            I see Diaspora Macedonians as always ready to accept Macedonians as Macedonians. Even the shadiest of Serbophiles from the 80's are readily embraced as Macedonians now. Same will go with Fyromians if they realise the gravity of their compromises.

            Quite frankly, they could be called the republic of Illyria (and willingly accept this) and they would still think they are more Macedonian than us in the Diaspora. So they will never understand our perspective on the matters relating to Macedonian identity.

            In many ways, the Macedonian Cause is well preserved in the Diaspora. The issues attached to Macedonian identity (here) are not clouded by secondary issues associated with compromises relating to day to day frustrations over there.

            Just as it was the Diaspora that helped create a Greek nation. Same goes with Macedonians. The TRUTH rests with us and is our responsibility in many ways.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              Originally posted by Starling View Post
              how do you establish a government in exile in this situation?


              It is valid and could be done very quickly with some of the best Macedonian minds and capable people from all around the world.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Phoenix
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2008
                • 4671

                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_in_exile

                It is valid and could be done very quickly with some of the best Macedonian minds and capable people from all around the world.
                ...surely there's an App for that.

                I think it's time for a 'government in exile'...those cunts over there have been fucking up things for almost three decades and now, possibly the most useless of them all has been put in charge, thanks to his Western handlers...this is the proverbial lunatic taking over the asylum scenario...and it's real.
                Last edited by Phoenix; 12-11-2017, 08:34 PM.

                Comment

                • Starling
                  Member
                  • Sep 2017
                  • 153

                  So, what country will we set it up in? We'd also need to present well worded arguments for the inevitable questions on the matter. It would be a good way to make a statement about the political situation and get some actual goddamned news coverage on the Macedonian perspective.

                  Also no one responded to my earlier suggestion of having MTO social media accounts and updating the articles whose images don't display anymore. Whatever we do we need to at least work on improving exposure and awareness. Make people around the world realize what's going on, since a lot of people don't.

                  Comment

                  • Vangelovski
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 8530

                    Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                    I guess honestly, the reasoning for this derives form the fact that until now, I have never genuinely considered a climate existing within RoM where the real possibility of an identity change could succeed, but taking into account moves such as the MOC’s proposal to fall under the wing of the Bulgarian Church, implementation of national bilingualism, and Zajko’s clear globalist/European agenda, all progressing without any resounding backlash within the populace, but rather with a response of greater support as is evident with SDS’s favourable results at the local elections, its hard not to see such events as indicators of such a favourable climate possibly coming to fruition.
                    Personally, I've been convinced that Macedonia will change its name at some point for at least the past decade. I put that down to youthful naivety on my part. When I look back now, we (the diaspora) should have known this since 1993, perhaps even earlier.

                    I think the will has always been there among the political elite, it was just a matter of timing and perhaps what they may be able to leverage out of it - but the desire to capitulate was always there. I think the reasons it has taken so long is that (a) the governing elite wasn't entirely sure how the people would react and (b) they were not confident in what they would receive in return. Our people are not men of principle or character - they won't resist - and thanks to Zaev we now have a leader who is openly proud of his progressive/internationalist vision and sees it as political capital.

                    Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                    The question running around in my head is if the Diaspora can appear to choose its own destiny as a reaction to the MOC’s abandonment of its identity, can it actually choose its own destiny in the event of RoM’s abandonment of its identity?, and if not, why not?, what are the aspects or obstacles to prevent us from doing this?
                    I’m not sure how a division would look in practice. There are no formal institutions or property joining the diaspora with MK Macedonians like there is with the church. As far as I can tell, a division would only be conceptual. They would call themselves one thing and we would call ourselves Macedonians. Historically, culturally and linguistically there would be little that you could identify as a point of difference. Politically, we would be worlds apart and have been from the 1950s I’d say. Ultimately, I think this will all become an 'internal' issue, as most of the world will just call us whatever those idiots decide on (see Persia/Iran comments).
                    Last edited by Vangelovski; 12-12-2017, 04:46 AM.
                    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                    Comment

                    • Starling
                      Member
                      • Sep 2017
                      • 153

                      What about the massive protests that got next to no news coverage? There would still be outrage. Also organizing more protests in the diaspora would help raise awareness on this. We need to do our part too and it'd be nice if I could at least get people's thoughts on suggestions I've made on ways to do it aside from protests, as well as more talk about organizing protests and such.

                      I generally got the impression that Persia was en exonym and that Persian texts had some variant of the name Iran in them.

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                        will the concept of some form of real division at that point become to be seen as a reasonable reaction amongst the diaspora?, does anyone think this could be a possible realistic reaction/outcome if such an event (name change) took place?.
                        If the argument can be made, and accepted, that this division would be necessary in order for Macedonians to retain our identity, then I think it could be both reasonable and realistic. One stumbling block, as we all have seen too many times in the past, is the hesitancy to go down this road because of potential fallout within families who would become divided over this.


                        The question running around in my head is if the Diaspora can appear to choose its own destiny as a reaction to the MOC’s abandonment of its identity, can it actually choose its own destiny in the event of RoM’s abandonment of its identity?, and if not, why not?, what are the aspects or obstacles to prevent us from doing this?
                        Yes it can. While I think our identity is tied to, and originated from, Macedonia, I don't think our identity is tied to the Republic of Macedonia. Macedonia is a land and also an ideal.

                        Comment

                        • Gocka
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2012
                          • 2306

                          The only thing the Diaspora can do effectively is protect Macedonian culture. Write it down, practice it, spread it. That is what we are focused on doing with LOMA. Any other type of "division" will be symbolic at best.

                          If you want to know where a country is going, look at the youth. In Macedonia the youth are firmly "European" globalists. Most young people who voted did so overwhelmingly for Zaev. Younger people are always more prone to lean left politically, throw on top of that high unemployment and promise of more government handouts and higher paying jobs and its obvious where they lean. Nationalism not only in Macedonia but what seems to be worldwide now a days, is a firmly conservative right leaning ideology. It's quite a hurdle to overcome. In Macedonia the youth view nationalism as something baba and dedo care about, that its selski mentality and that we are now Europeans who are above that. They inherently shy away from nationalism because of the other political ideology nationalism is tied to.

                          One interesting strategy would be to try and form a left leaning but nationalist party. This might have some success and goes back to what I was saying about linking nationalism to some type of reward. If you want people to care about nationalism then you have to tie it to other things they care about, a tough thing to do but I believe it would work. Besides many of our favorite revolutionaries were left leaning nationalists.

                          Comment

                          • vicsinad
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2011
                            • 2337

                            Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                            The only thing the Diaspora can do effectively is protect Macedonian culture. Write it down, practice it, spread it. That is what we are focused on doing with LOMA. Any other type of "division" will be symbolic at best.

                            If you want to know where a country is going, look at the youth. In Macedonia the youth are firmly "European" globalists. Most young people who voted did so overwhelmingly for Zaev. Younger people are always more prone to lean left politically, throw on top of that high unemployment and promise of more government handouts and higher paying jobs and its obvious where they lean. Nationalism not only in Macedonia but what seems to be worldwide now a days, is a firmly conservative right leaning ideology. It's quite a hurdle to overcome. In Macedonia the youth view nationalism as something baba and dedo care about, that its selski mentality and that we are now Europeans who are above that. They inherently shy away from nationalism because of the other political ideology nationalism is tied to.

                            One interesting strategy would be to try and form a left leaning but nationalist party. This might have some success and goes back to what I was saying about linking nationalism to some type of reward. If you want people to care about nationalism then you have to tie it to other things they care about, a tough thing to do but I believe it would work. Besides many of our favorite revolutionaries were left leaning nationalists.
                            I think this is a good point. Nationalism shouldn't know a political ideology; but it, too, is on a pendulum and swings from left to right. Nationalism is meant to protect and preserve a nation -- its culture, economy, and society -- from external threats. The extreme right and left of today both interpret that to mean "anti-immigration" or "anti-trade" or "isolationism" or whatever.

                            I think we saw in Catalonia how left-nationalists and right-nationalists worked together on an issue. That left-nationalists are missing in Macedonia is a big problem because it puts the burden on preserving the Macedonian nation on a narrower following. You need both, left and right, to combat both the right-wing and left-wing "globalists".

                            If you want to create a "new" Macedonian nationalist party that's not necessarily a right-wing party, it could be tied into environmental issues. Macedonia certainly has a pollution problem, as well as a lack of respect for the land (as Tomche and I talked about earlier). And respect for local place (which can be left or right) and caring for the streams, earth and air can be linked to Macedonian culture and identity. Most of our traditional folk songs, for example, are about place, and much of this is related to nature, whether it is in the wheat fields or up in the mountains.

                            So there is an intersection of two non-inherently political right or left ideologies (nationalism and environmentalism) that have been captured by the right and left factions, respectively. Where these two meet could be where you could grab from both the right and left.

                            It's likely a long shot, though. A platform that promises money in one form or another would probably work better. It is Macedonia, after all.

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                              A platform that promises money in one form or another would probably work better. It is Macedonia, after all.
                              Perhaps one where they change their flag and call themselves FYROM for 20 years in exchange for economic progress. Oh, hang on ....
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Gocka
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2012
                                • 2306

                                LOL. Don't be silly, that could never happen.

                                I say we form a party and promise all sorts of stupid shit. Macedonians believe anything as long as its not true.

                                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                                Perhaps one where they change their flag and call themselves FYROM for 20 years in exchange for economic progress. Oh, hang on ....

                                Comment

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