Makedoncite vo Diadohiite - Macedonians in the Diadochi Empires

[Serdarot]

I will start with one beautifull picture from the book

Ke pocnam so edna ubava "slika" od edna kniga

Judas Maccabaeus - The Jewish Struggle against the Seleucids

avtor - Bezalel Bar-Kochva







Dokolku nekoj ja ima knigata - neka pisi molam

Po-Zdrav

[Agamoi Thytai]

I will start with one beautifull picture from the book

Ke pocnam so edna ubava "slika" od edna kniga

Judas Maccabaeus - The Jewish Struggle against the Seleucids

avtor - Bezalel Bar-Kochva










Dokolku nekoj ja ima knigata - neka pisi molam

Po-Zdrav

I see on this table there are mentioned Cretan and Pamphylian mercenaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamphylian_Greek) separate from the Greeks as well.Were they both distinct ethnicities?Furthermore I see in the same book the authors often uses the term Greco-Macedonian,that is Greco-Macedonian population,settlers of Greco-Macedonian descend,Greco-Macedonian society,Greco-Macedonian national character e.t.c. :

http://books.google.com/books?hl=el&id=SIKuW_bl6LAC&q=Greco-Macedonian#v=snippet&q=Greco-Macedonian&f=false

A good read on the Macabees is also this:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Maccabees.html

[Serdarot]

i knew you (some of the greeks) will hook on the "greco-macedonian"

and i hoped you will hook on the "cretans"

first, if Macedonian = Greek, why are both separately mentioned in the lists of the armies?

[Agamoi Thytai]

i knew you (some of the greeks) will hook on the "greco-macedonian"

and i hoped you will hook on the "cretans"

first, if Macedonian = Greek, why are both separately mentioned in the lists of the armies?

I'd say for the same reason that Cretans and Pamphylians are not mentioned along the Greeks either.

[Serdarot]

and the reason is?

[Serdarot]

o re, file mou, still search for good answer on some magna graecia forums?

untill you search, i will add this...

i read polybios, livy and other historians...

they are good read the web-site who´s url you provided is funny...

"Source: Mitchell G. Bard,The Complete Idiot's Guide to Middle East Conflict."

sorry, but we, the Macedonians are particulary idiots, but not always and not all of us

and i had impresion its some scenario for new Star Wars Episode...

Alexander of Greece?
Greek Empire?

where? when?

let me remind you, from non-idiots sources:


Arrian - Historiae Alexandri Magni Macedonis
Curtius - ALEXANDRI MAGNI REGIS MACEDONUM

should i translate it, or you can understand the "Macedonis" / "Macedonum" part?

[Agamoi Thytai]

and the reason is?

I'm not in the author's mind to know what he exactly has in mind,but I guess perhaps for pure geographical or even for political reasons,in the case of Macedonians at least.Macedonia was a different political entity than southern Greece,you know,this kingdom vs city states and monarchy vs democracy thing.

[Serdarot]

the "geografical" can be rejected couse we talk about Macedonians who are born and raised in Asia

political thing, monarchy, city states?

Should i ask the Spartan Kings about it?
Or the Pontian Kings?


i have very logical explanation why the Macedonians are mentioned as Macedonians, and the Greeks as Greeks.

couse the Macedonians are Macedonians, and the Greeks are Greeks, 2 neighboring, but diferent ethnic groups

and about the Cretans - why are they not between the Greeks, but separate?

maybe they were not Greek too?

much more logic, than the greek "first were the greeks, than came God and asked if he is allowed to make the Amebas" and "everything is greek"

btw, the "greco-macedonian" is nowhere to find in the Ancient Chronicls, only in the pan-hellenic propaganda material since germany created modenr greece.

if i am wrong - pls point where can we find such sources


p.s.

about the meaning of the term "greek" there is enough material on this forum, feel free to read some

[Agamoi Thytai]

o re, file mou, still search for good answer on some magna graecia forums?

untill you search, i will add this...

i read polybios, livy and other historians...

they are good read the web-site who´s url you provided is funny...


sorry, but we, the Macedonians are particulary idiots, but not always and not all of us

and i had impresion its some scenario for new Star Wars Episode...

Alexander of Greece?
Greek Empire?

where? when?

let me remind you, from non-idiots sources:


Arrian - Historiae Alexandri Magni Macedonis
Curtius - ALEXANDRI MAGNI REGIS MACEDONUM

should i translate it, or you can understand the "Macedonis" / "Macedonum" part?

Well,the title of the book may sound a bit funny but you should have noticed it,this book is cited by a Jewish site and Jews are not joking at all with matters that concern their history
And if you really read Polybius,Livy,Arrian Plutarch and Curtius Rufus,that's indeed great,cause there is an abundance of quotes that prove ancient Macedonians were Greek.Now show me one quote of the above historians that explicitly describes Macedonians as non-Greeks:

Plutarch:

While he (Alexander) was thus deliberating what to do, it happened that a spring of water near the city of Xanthus in Lycia, of its own accord, swelled over its banks, and threw up a copper plate, upon the margin of which was engraven in ancient characters, that the time would come when the Persian empire should be destroyed by the Grecians. Encouraged by this accident, he proceeded to reduce the maritime parts of Cilicia and Phoenicia.

http://books.google.com/books?id=mZlJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA396

He made the longest address that day to the Thesssalians and other Greeks who answered him with loud shouts,desiring him to lead them upon the barbarians and with his right lifted up towards heaven, besought the gods,as Callisthenes tells us, that if he was of a truth the
son of Jupiter,they would be pleased to assist and strengthen the Grecians.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kIUCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA422

Arian:

Porus, bringing up his elephants, followed these movements, guided by the noise, and Alexander gradually led him to make these marches, parallel to his own, a regular thing. This went on for some time, until Porus, finding that the Greeks never went beyond shouts and yell gave it up. Clearly, it was a false alarm; so he ceased to follow the movements of the Greek cavalry and stayed where he was in his original position with lookouts posted at various points along the river.”

http://books.google.gr/books?id=aXuxw070d-wC&pg=PA190

Some of them advanced some distance inland, breaking away from the main force, some in pursuit of this, and some of that. There a man appeared to them, wearing a Greek cloak, and dressed otherwise in the Greek fashion, and speaking Greek also. Those who first sighted him said that they burst into tears, so strange did it seem after all these miseries to see a Greek, and to hear Greek spoken. They asked whence he came, who he was; and he said that he had become separated from Alexander's camp, and that the camp, and Alexander himself, were not very far distant. Shouting aloud and clapping their hands they brought this man to Nearchus; and he told Nearchus everything, and that the camp and the King himself were distant five days' journey from the coast.

http://books.google.com/books?id=XTzTaSZBY-AC&pg=PA25

There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay — and not much of it at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it.As for our foreign troops-Thracians,Paeonians,Illyrians,Agrianes,they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe.

http://books.google.com/books?id=h1itBUiuNboC&pg=PP87

Polybius:

This is a sworn treaty made between Hannibal... on the one part; and Xenophanes, son of Cleomachus of Athens, sent to us by King Philip... The oath is taken in the presence... of all the gods who rule Macedonia and the rest of Greece

http://books.google.com/books?id=lcAcCOuOW58C&pg=PT349

what high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?...Brennus promptly marched into the middle of Greece. And this would often have happened if the Macedonians had not been on our frontiers.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kxs9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA381

Then you were contending for glory and supremacy with Achaeans and Macedonians, men of kindred blood with yourselves, and with Philip their leader; now a war of slavery is threatening Greece against men of another race, whom you think to bring against Philip, but have really unconsciously brought against yourselves and all Greece.

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&hl=el&q=Then+you+were+contending+for+glory+and+supremacy+with+Achaeans+and+Macedonians%2C+men+of+kindred+blood+with+yourselves%2C+and+with+Philip+their+leader%3B+now+a+war+of+slavery+is+threatening+Greece+against+men+of+another+race%2C+whom+you+think+to+bring+against+Philip%2C+but+have+really+unconsciously+brought+against+yourselves+and+all+Greece.+&btnG=%CE%91%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7+%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD

Titus Livius:

Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is always the same, and not from causes which change with the times.

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=59609&pageno=136

Quintus Curtius Rufus:

They recalled that at the start of his reign Darius had issued orders for the shape of the scabbard of the Persian scimitar to be altered to the shape used by the Greeks, and that the Chaldeans had immediately interpreted this as meaning that rule over the Persians would pass to those people whose arms Darius had copied.

http://books.google.gr/books?id=arSAnU0ADIAC&pg=PA30

Alexander called a meeting of his generals the next day. He told them that no city was more hateful to the Greeks than Persepolis, the capital of the old kings of Persia, the city from which troops without number had poured forth, from which first Darius and then Xerxes had waged an unholy war on Europe. To appease the spirits of their forefathers they should wipe it out, he said.

http://books.google.gr/books?id=arSAnU0ADIAC&pg=PA105

Mutiny was but a step away when, unperturbed by all this, Alexander summoned a full meeting of his generals and officers in his tent and ordered the Egyptian seers to give their opinion. They were well aware that the annual cycle follows a pattern of changes, that the moon is eclipsed when it passes behind the earth or is blocked by the sun, but they did not give this explanation, which they themselves knew, to the common soldiers. Instead, they declared that the sun represented the Greeks and the moon the Persians, and that an eclipse of the moon predicted disaster and slaughter for those nations.

http://books.google.com/books?id=arSAnU0ADIAC&pg=PA73

and he (Alexander) had her ordered from the camp.He did not want her (a Persian woman that murdered her satrap lover and brought his cut head to Alexander in order to gain his favour) tainting the character and civilized temperament of the Greeks with this example of barbarian lawlessness.

http://books.google.com/books?id=arSAnU0ADIAC&pg=PA184

As for Alexander, it is generally agreed that, when sleep had brought him back to his senses after his drunken bout, he regretted his actions and said that the Persians would have suffered a more grievous punishment at the hands of the Greeks had they been forced to see him on Xerxes throne and in his palace.

http://books.google.gr/books?id=QY9bF60I5pAC&pg=PA107

[Serdarot]

.Now show me one quote of the above historians that explicitly describes Macedonians as non-Greeks:

One?

Diodorus Siculus

For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of ANOTHER RACE and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death.

17.99.5-6.

- The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him…

18.37.3-4.

Аρχеλαος, Μακεδоν τὸ γеνος <---

Quintus Curtius Rufus

The commander of the greek mercenaries talking to the Shah-an-Shah Darius III Kodoman

"we few are all that remain of 50,000 Greeks. We were all with you in your more fortunate days, and in your present situation we remain as we were when you were prospering, ready to make for and to accept as our country and our home any lands you choose. We and you have been drawn together both by your prosperity and your adversity. By this inviolable loyalty of ours I beg and beseech you: pitch your tent in our area of the camp and let us be your bodyguards. We have left Greece behind; for us there is no Bactria; our hopes rest entirely in you - I wish that were true of the others also! Further talk serves no purpose. As a foreigner born of ANOTHER RACE I should not be asking for the responsibility of guarding your person if I thought anyone else could do it." [p.112-13]

Arrian

"Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian."

Book II , Battle of Isus [p.119]

[Bill77]

Agamoi Thytai There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay — and not much of it at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it.As for our foreign troops-Thracians,Paeonians,Illyrians,Agrianes,they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe.

I am not going to waist my time explaining IMO what is meant in all the quotes you posted. It's not going to make a difference for you. You would rather stay in the dark. But i must comment on the one above which is a common one thrown by deluded greeks .


Alexander ruled over Greece. all its possessions now belonged to him. Is it any wander why his heart will be in it to fight for Greece?

Just like in modern days in Irag and the US war on terror. Did you ever hear words coming from the Bush administration along the lines of "We will fight to free Iraq" Now by Bush claiming to be fighting for the Iraqis, does this make Him and his people Iraqis? Bullshit, Just like Alexander, we know what Bush fought for.

And he to had foreign troops fighting for his interests just like Alexander did (Thracians,Paeonians,Illyrians,Agrianes,they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe). Bush called his "Coalition of the willing".

Bush also had Iraqis fighting against Iraqis. Bush also would have wandered about the side fighting for Al-Qaeda and suggested "but how different is their cause from ours"

PS: By using Bush as an example, no way am i Calling Georgi boy another Alexander the great

[julie]

Good anaology Bill, dont waste your time on them, they are brainwashed wankers and the thickest when it comes to understanding anything bratko. They are the stupidest, most idiotic and thickest tools, and misappropriate money, you cant talk logic to a hellass

[Serdarot]

- all historians agree the Ancient Greeks were settlers mixed with small part of the natives. Your "autohtoni" theory is funny
- part of the Natives, that are know as Pelazgi, Pelaski, Pelazgoi, are those who gave the names to many cities, mountains, rivers, almost everything
- on our, Macedonian, what you call it "slavic" language, all those names have perfect meaning, and are mostly very diferent of your explanations, if you have any explanation. couse very often there is "ethymology un-known"
- in many sources it is mentioned not only ethnic or cultural, but also racial diference between the Ancient Greeks and Macedonians. Concidering the fact that noone objects that the Ancient Greeks were mostly SETTLERS, and even today you call us "entopi" , "endopin" "ntopi" - Natives... do we realy need to talk more?
- concidering the fact that xyz thousands of Christian Turks, Albanians, Macedonians, Armenians, Gypcies and many other diverse ethnicities are assimilated into modern "greeks", as you nicely elaborated...

but let speak some serious things...

- we dont have in our collective memory some "settling" moment!
- we dont have in our collective memory crossing Dunav / (b)Istar
- we dont have in our collective memory some "slavic leader" who brought us from behind some Karpati, like the Jews have Moses, the Bulgarians Asparuh, Omurtag and the Others, the Huns Atila, etc. etc...

we do have:

- the 16 ray Sun in our collective memory
- we call our MotherLand Majka Makedonia, Mother Macedonia
- it is known fact that the Pre-Greek Cultures of the Balkans had the "Great Mother" Cult
- we HAVE Aleksandar, Filip and all others in our collective memory
- we DO have Red, Black and some Yellow
- just like the Minoans and all other Aegean Cultures had
- we dont have homesick for Russia or Ukraina, but for Macedonia

- we DO concider ourself as NATIVES in Macedonia since ever, Aristotel is from Stagira, Macedonia, and Aleksandar is born in Pela / Bela, Macedonia, Remember Natives, Pela-zgi, sounds Pre-Greek?
- many Greeks spoke of them (Filip, Aleksandar, Aristotel...) in not so kind manner
- khm, let better speak about Diadochi Times, about the Macedonian SETTLERS (uups, now, settlers? but WHERE?

ok, for you to feel better, something for us, Macedonians sad, for you, Greeks, lucky..

like Aleksandar I Macedon said, he had some relations with some greek. settlers mixed with small part of the natives... just like today is, dude, history somehow repeats itself

[indigen]

I'm not in the author's mind to know what he exactly has in mind,but I guess perhaps for pure geographical or even for political reasons,in the case of Macedonians at least.Macedonia was a different political entity than southern Greece,you know,this kingdom vs city states and monarchy vs democracy thing.

Waldemar Heckel: "It is clear from the extant historians that the lost sources made a CLEAR DISTINCTION BETWEEN MACEDONIANS AND GREEKS - ethnically, culturally and linguistically - and THIS MUST BE AN ACCURATE REFLECTION OF CONTEMPORARY ATTITUDES....."

----------------

The Evidence:

N.G.L. Hammond

The Greek view of the Macedonians and their monarchy

"We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their kings, were considered not to be Greeks. Herodotus said this clearly in four words, introducing Amyntas, who was king c.500, as ' a Greek ruling over Macedonians' (5.20. 4), and Thucydides described the Macedonians and other northern tribes as 'barbarians' in the sense of 'non-Greeks'...... (Thuc. 2. 80. 5-7; 2. 81. 6; 4. 124.1)....Greek speech-writer called the Thessalians 'Greeks' and Archelaus, the contemporary Macedonian king, 'a barbarian'. Demosthenes spoke of Philip II as 'the barbarian from Pella'. Writing in 346 and eager to win Philip's approval, Isocrates paid tribute to Philip as a blue-blooded Greek and made it clear at the same time that Macedonians were not Greeks. (Isoc. 5.108 and 154) Aristotle, born at Stageira on the Macedonian borderand the son of a..... doctor at the Macedonian court, classed the Macedonians and their institution of Monarchy as not Greek, as we shall see shortly.It is thus not surprising that the Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so."

-------------

General Editor
M.B. SAKELLARIOU
Member of the Academy of Athens
EKDOTIKE ATHENON S.A.
1988




"…The general sense of a passage in Thucydides gives the impression that the historian considered the Macedonians barbarians." The Macedonians are also distinguished from the Greeks and classified with the barbarians in the Pen Politeias, an anonymous work written about the end of the fifth or the beginning of the fourth century B.C. Various ancient geographers and historians of the classical and post-classical periods, such as Ephoros, Pseudo-Skylax, Dionysios son of Kalliphon and Dionysios Periegetes, put the northern borders of Greece at the line from the Ambrakian Gulf to the Peneios. Isokrates places Macedonia outside the boundaries of Greece and describes the Macedonians as ‘an unrelated race’. Medeios of Larisa, who accompanied Alexander on his campaign in Asia, calls the Thessalians ‘the most northerly of the Greeks’.

In contrast with the genealogy of the mythical founder of the Macedonians to be found in Hellanikos there are three other genealogies of Makedon in which he is not included in the stemma of Hellen. About 700 B.C., Hesiod refers to Makedon as the son of Zeus and Thyia. Pseudo-Skymnos calls him "born from the earth". Pseudo-Apollodoros and Aelian reflect a tradition according to which Makedon was the son of Lykaon. …"

[M.B. SAKELLARIOU]

The above thread has a lot of information which clearly establishes that Ancient Macedonians and Ancient "Greeks" were ethnically, culturally and linguistically two separate and distinct entities - no ifs, no buts! Try reading through it and post back here if you have any further questions but as far as I am concerned, it is case closed!

NB: Just keep in mind that I prefer that particular topic thread remain a collection of useful information (posted by myself or contributed by others - Macedonians or well intentioned friends of Macedonians) and not a place for useless/off-topic "discussion" that will bury 40 plus pages deep the good stuff.

[Serdarot]

...Just keep in mind that I prefer that particular topic thread remain a collection of useful information (posted by myself or contributed by others - Macedonians or well intentioned friends of Macedonians) and not a place for useless/off-topic "discussion" that will bury 40 plus pages deep the good stuff.

thats why i didnt continued to post citations and similar, but clear, WE are REALY "Autohtones" , "nashinci" , "Makedones" , and they are settlers with some portion of natives. Also the Ancient Macedonians were settlers, but NOT in Macedonia, they were settlers in the WASTE territories of the Macedonian Empire...

so, again:

Ethnic Macedonians accros the Macedonian Empire(s), some of the Dynasties that came out of those Macedonian families, mixed with some of the natives where they lived, armies, battles, common people, scientist and other famous people...

Topic for the Ethnic Macedonians in the Diadochi Time

Also known as the Macedonian Age