Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • indigen
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 1558

    Some YouTube videos regarding Gruevski and Mk Government (State) position on the name issue prior and after the 2008 Bucharest NATO summit and Macedonia's application to join this pact.

    Nikola Gruevski za imeto (prior NATO 2008 Summit)
    YouTube - Nikola Gruevski za imeto


    Nikola Gruevski posle "grckoto veto" (the reality IS that ALL NATO MEMBERS, INCLUDING "our friends" Turkey and USA, are asking Macedonia to PLEASE Greece if it wants to be accepted as a member in this WAR CLUB!).

    YouTube - Nikola Gruevski posle grckoto veto

    IMHO, Gruevski is almost about to CRY after NATO rejection of Macedonia's membership bid even though they were willing to do it as FYROM or "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)".

    Gruevski's only cover is that he will allow ALL citizens of Macedonia (which he and his government have renamed, without consent and in contravention of the 1991 REFERENDUM, to "Republika Makedonija" (and Macedonians to "Gragjani"/'citizens" though if that was the real name of the state, which it is not, Macedonians should self-identify as Republikomacedonians/Republicomacedonians or Republikomakedonci!!!).


    Kako Gruevski go predade makedonskoto ime (a short clip of a a discussion in MK parliament that points out the obvious - Nikola Gruevski in 2008 accepted a name change as a price for NATO membership!).

    YouTube - Kako Gruevski go predade makedonskoto ime
    Last edited by indigen; 01-24-2011, 04:14 AM.

    Comment

    • Bill77
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2009
      • 4545

      Indi,

      I don't know why you posted these youtube links of Gruevski.
      Unless my Understanding of the Macedonian language is worse than i thought, They are great promotional footage for VMRO.

      I doubt that was your intention, or have you jumped on his bandwagon?
      http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

      Comment

      • indigen
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 1558

        Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
        Indi,

        I don't know why you posted these youtube links of Gruevski.
        Unless my Understanding of the Macedonian language is worse than i thought, They are great promotional footage for VMRO.

        I doubt that was your intention, or have you jumped on his bandwagon?
        Зa politichki slepci (politichki nepismeni i gluvi podanici) mozhebi taka da izgleda no za zhal vistinata e obratna od toa shto nekoj podanik si ja zamislil!

        Here is a transcript (relevant parts) of the second clip:

        Груевски: Сите земји, освен една, ја поддржаа Македонија

        03.04.2008


        Никола Груевски

        Сите земји членки на НАТО, освен една држава беа на страната на Македонија, изјави во Букурешт македонскиот премиер Никола Груевски.
        Do you think this is REALITY or the opposite is the end result?

        „Денеска сите земји членки на НАТО, како никогаш досега, беа на страната на Македонија, освен една држава, тоа е Република Грција. Никогаш досега во историјата на Република Македонија, немало толку многу поддржувачи на нејзина страна, но и една држава којашто е толку многу против земјата да стане членка на НАТО“, изјави Груевски.
        If this is not the biggest OXYMORON statement by GRUJO, I don't know what is!

        „Како што веќе знаете, една земја, заради едно билатерално прашање, силно се спротивстави на сите и го блокираше добивањето на покана на Република Македонија, користејќи адут што многу ретко се користи, кршејќи го договорот од 1995-та година, ставајќи се и себе и нас и регионот во многу непријатна ситуација“, истакна Груевски.
        Toj e istiot dogovor shto na vremeto od istata partija (DPMNE) beshe proglasen za velipredavstvo i da ne zboruvame za makedonskite zaednici vo Avstralija i site patriotski opredeleni Makedonci i makedonski zdruzhenija shirum svetot!

        „Ние треба да бидеме горди со тоа што сите земји членки денеска кажаа вие треба да станете членка на НАТО. Вие ги исполнивте стандардите. Сите до една препознаа дека Република Македонија, граѓаните на Република Македонија и сите политички чинители, во овој период успеаја да ја донесат земјата до таков степен да биде рамна на членките на НАТО“, кажа Груевски.
        Chovek mozhe da si zamisli deka svetot propadnal za toa shto "Republika Makedonija" ne vlegla vo NATO!!!

        „Соочувајќи се со оваа ситуација, ние ќе продолжиме со нашите напори за уште поголем напредок, за уште поголеми реформи. Направивме се што можевме и до овој период, до доаѓањето во Букурешт и овде во Букурешт, во овие два дена жестока борба, да успееме да го спречиме обидот на Грција да го направи тоа што го направи и што го најави уште во Атина“, истакна Груевски.
        Porakata za DA GO "RESHI PROBLEMOT" (chitaj da si go smeni imeto) SO IMETO E OD NATO (VO IME NA SITE) i ne e od GRCIJA!

        „Како и да е, секој оној што мисли дека со овој потег ќе ја натера земјата да прифати нешто што тој сака да го прифати, мислам дека е во голема заблуда. Земјата, за разлика од многу што честопати вртат разни темни сценарија, земјата е силна затоа што има силни граѓани, земјата ќе продолжи и да опстојува и да се развива понатаму, со силна динамика,
        Pa tie PRIFATIJA da se ZACHLENAT pod FYROM ili "REPUBLIKA MAKEDONIJA - SKOPJE" i Grcija saka 'erga omens' (seopfatno ime za sekakva upotreba) i ne prifati ime samo za NATO (ili za megjunarodna upotreba). Sega neka glumi patriot i takvi kako tebe neka mislat deka e navistina takov!

        заедно со нашите сојузници. А ги имаме многу, тргнувајќи од Америка, на којашто сакам сега јавно да и се заблагодарам за огромната поддршка што о ја даде на македонија, би рекол историско залагање да и се помогне на Република Македонија“, рече Груевски.
        Sega istata taa Amerika e shto vrshi pritisok za da se najde "reshenie" "prifatlivo za dvete strani"!!!

        „Сакам да и се заблагодарам на Словенија,
        Pa i Slovenija vrshi pritisok za da si go smenime imeto!!!
        на Турција и на сите други земји што дадоа се што беше во нивна моќ, до одреден степен ги ризикуваа и сопствените односи со Грција, за да и помогнат на Македонија
        Isto i Turcija go podrzhuva NATO baranjeto za "reshenie" prifatlivo za Grcija! I ako bea tolku dobri prijateli, zoshto tie ne stavija veto vo nasha odbrana, neli i tie mozhea da gi blokiraat Hrvatska i Albanija se dodeka Makedonija ne e primena za chlen?

        „Грција практично го искористи правото на вето, тоа е тешка артилерија во дипломатијата и нив сигурно нема евтино да ги кошта ова што го направија, меѓутоа ние се соочивме со тоа, продолжуваме понатаму, земјата продолжува да се развива, да оди напред, како што одеше и во минатиот период“, оцени Груевски.
        Shto navistina gi koshta GRCIJA koga NATO (site chlenki zaedno) stavija VETO protiv Makedonija i sega se na grchka pozicija?

        „Сме поминале и низ многу потешки ситуации од оваа, низ многу потешки моменти и низ многу потешки години. Ќе поминеме и низ оваа, ќе излеземе уште посилни, ќе продолжиме со нашите напори.
        Pa vo predhodniot klip zboruvashe za prekin na "razgovrite za razlikite" (PREGOVRI ZA IMETO) dokolku Grcija stavi VETO a nishto od toa skoro tri godin pokasno! Ama NATO stavi veto i sega vrshi pritisok za promena na imeto i mnogu drugi raboti!

        Ние 17 години живееме без да бидеме членка на НАТО, ќе издржиме и понатаму и ќе бидеме уште повеќе посветени на патот на развојот на државата, на подобрување на квалитетот на животот на граѓаните и на издигнување на земјата на уште поголемо рамниште“, заврши Груевски.
        http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=91398
        Mizhi da te lazham!

        NB: Vo posledniot kratok klip zboruva Lazar Elenovski, Minister za Odbrana na Makedonija i del od deligacijata za Bukuresht vo 2008, i treba da im se veruva koga ja kazhuva vistinata za kako "makedonskata" deligacija nastapi na NATO sobirot!
        Last edited by indigen; 01-23-2011, 01:01 AM.

        Comment

        • Volk
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 894

          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
          Just because you clearly do not understand a simple document, you should not console yourself by pretending others don't either.

          Macedonia capitulated by agreeing to the Interim Accord. Now it is attempting to ENFORCE the Accord by making Greece comply with this capitulation. I cannot think of any other example of where an individual, group or state has undertaken a tremendously idiotic endeavour.

          I love it how you can ignore anything that does not suit your view point.. I asked a simple question, it did not need a lengthy response but as usual reason is not a strong point for you..
          Makedonija vo Srce

          Comment

          • Vangelovski
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 8531

            Originally posted by Volk View Post
            I love it how you can ignore anything that does not suit your view point.. I asked a simple question, it did not need a lengthy response but as usual reason is not a strong point for you..
            Seeing as Macedonia has already capitulated MULTIPLE TIMES (including in relation to the name among other issues), you're question is fallacious and a lame one at that.
            Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-22-2011, 07:05 AM.
            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              Originally posted by Volk View Post
              ........why take greece to the ICJ if it was going to capitulate?why has it not done so yet?
              The Macedonian government is taking Greece to court for not allowing Macedonia to call itself by the acronym in NATO and the EU. Unbelievable! The capitulation already took place when our treacherous politicians accepted the 'temporary reference', and it has been prolonged through the entire period that Gruevski and Ivanov have been at the helm.
              Fact of the matter is, only Gruevski himself knows and he has been walking a tight rope the whole time.
              By now all Macedonians should know not to have blind faith in any politician, particularly those that keep all of their 'cards' to themselves.
              He has said things for both domestic and IC consumption.
              Which means he lacks consistency, this seems to be a common trait in a lot of our so-called 'leaders', who try and sell dreams to the Macedonian people while selling them out to foreign interests at the same time.
              ......what does Macedonia stand to gain from capitulation?
              Can you define what you consider 'capitulation'?
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Volk
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 894

                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                The Macedonian government is taking Greece to court for not allowing Macedonia to call itself by the acronym in NATO and the EU. Unbelievable! The capitulation already took place when our treacherous politicians accepted the 'temporary reference', and it has been prolonged through the entire period that Gruevski and Ivanov have been at the helm.
                By now all Macedonians should know not to have blind faith in any politician, particularly those that keep all of their 'cards' to themselves.

                Which means he lacks consistency, this seems to be a common trait in a lot of our so-called 'leaders', who try and sell dreams to the Macedonian people while selling them out to foreign interests at the same time.

                Can you define what you consider 'capitulation'?
                Yes you are correct why Macedonia is taking greece to ICJ to show greece broke the accord. The verdict is non binding, so even if we win it we still do not get admittance to EU or NATO. So one begs to ask the question, whats the point?

                Your absolutely right, we should not have blind faith in any politician..

                Capitulation is changing the name in any form.
                Makedonija vo Srce

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  It's more of the same.Macedonia is so weak in the presentation stakes it's beyond a joke.
                  From 1913 to the present & on it seems to be one big capitulation of giving in regardless.Why bother asking other countries to recognize us under our constitutional name.
                  Some of us were fooled by gruevski & ivanov they said they were not changing the name but with one very fine exception & that is they were going to compromise to greece all in the guise of being admitted to to the eu & nato.That's got to be the btrayal of the century.Same thing ivanov by comtinuing with the negotiations about the name with greece,he was going to find a mutually acceptale name acceptable to greece by capitulation & compromise .So what's in it for macedonia hardly anthing at all.Whils't other countries are falling overtheselves to get out of the BS eu or even nato membershps macedonia still beleives in these shit organizations.
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Ljubanec
                    Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 125

                    Originally posted by Volk View Post
                    Yes you are correct why Macedonia is taking greece to ICJ to show greece broke the accord. The verdict is non binding, so even if we win it we still do not get admittance to EU or NATO. So one begs to ask the question, whats the point?

                    Your absolutely right, we should not have blind faith in any politician..

                    Capitulation is changing the name in any form.
                    If Macedonia were to join NATO under the acronym it would essentially mean the end of the name dispute with Greece. The result would be in Macedonia's favour, because we would gain influence, more power and much closer to getting recognized as Macedonia.

                    Rather than talk bad about the Prime Minister of Macedonia, we should talk of the corrupt nation to our southeast (Greece). Or maybe try to find a youtube video of some Jews or Masons conducting a human sacrifice in their religious practices.

                    131 countries- all that lobbying could have been spent on doctors and hospitals in Macedonia, or even more statues........
                    Thanks for noticing my earlier post Volk. As for the the ICJ, lets hope this leads to other positive things. The ICJ ruling on Kosovo that the Serbs lost was non-binding as well. It resulted in recognition of at least 2 countries for that Kakistocracy.

                    Comment

                    • indigen
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 1558

                      Originally posted by Volk View Post
                      Yes you are correct why Macedonia is taking Greece to ICJ to show Greece broke the accord.
                      The IA (Interim Accord") IS A TREASONOUS ANTI MACEDONIAN CAPITULATION DEED that was condemned as such by DPMNE and ALL patriotic Macedonians and Macedonian organisations back in 1995 and having the "Macedonian" state (NB: Ramkovist (post 2001) Macedonia is NOT a Macedonian state!) taking it to the ICJ VALIDATES this ILLEGAL ACT. Macedonian validation has grave and national suicidal implications arising out of this shameful treasonous act!


                      Што е паметно во спорот со Грција

                      Македонија да се одлучи дали ќе го примени моето правно средство, или она на Јанев. Само во овие два случаја има правен силогизам со судска практика. Она што го прави Владата со тужбата е привиден силогизам, побиен од мојот правен силогизам. Доколку Владата успее со тужбата, тогаш сами сме си го ставиле јажето и ќе мора да правиме компромис. А меѓународното право вели дека за иус цогенс, какви што се посочените норми во мојата „Стратегија за зачувување на името“, која ја објави „Нова Македонија“, не смее да се прави компромис.

                      [......]

                      И за крај; доколку привремената согласност е важечка, зошто тогаш Грција петнаесет години не поднесува тужба против Македонија за мала фидес? Зошто не ја обвини Македонија пред Меѓународниот суд на правдата дека Македонија веќе петнаесет години ги влече преговорите и нема добра волја да ја исполни? Судот може да ја натера Македонија на компромис.

                      Заради тоа што правото на самоопределување е иус цогенс, а Меѓународниот суд на правдата во случајот „Источен Тимор“ 1995 година веќе одлучи дека правото на самоопределување важи ерга омнес.
                      Значи, Грција знае дека ќе загуби. Затоа траат толку преговорите.

                      Дај му на будалата доволно јаже, па самиот ќе се обеси (англиска поговорка).

                      [.....]

                      Авторот е адвокат и судски преведувач
                      Автор: Марјан Попески

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8531

                        Originally posted by Volk View Post
                        Yes you are correct why Macedonia is taking greece to ICJ to show greece broke the accord. The verdict is non binding, so even if we win it we still do not get admittance to EU or NATO. So one begs to ask the question, whats the point?

                        Your absolutely right, we should not have blind faith in any politician..

                        Capitulation is changing the name in any form.
                        The real question is what was the point of your earlier posts!?
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • indigen
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2009
                          • 1558



                          Gloom, bitterness mark Macedonia's entry to the UN

                          Skopje: The people of [...] Macedonia yesterday greeted the news that their state had become the 181st member of the United Nations with a mixture of gloom and bitterness.

                          State-run Macedonian television covered the UN General Assembly session live and celebratory fireworks lit up the skies over Skopje's central square.

                          But only a handful of people gathered to watch and the streets were deserted.

                          "All this struggle, all this never-ending agony, was it worth it?" asked one of the few onlookers in the central square.


                          [...]

                          Prime Minister Branko Crvenkovski was the only official voice of optimism in Skopje.

                          The Parliament had called a vote of no-confidence in the Government over its capitulation to the UN conditions for Macedonia's admission.


                          [...]

                          But, ignoring the urgings by moderate President Kiro Gligorov to accept reality, Macedonia's biggest opposition party called the no-confidence motion, saying Mr Crvenkovski's Cabinet had violated the constitution by accepting the compromise name.

                          [...]

                          The influential Holy Synod of the Macedonian Orthodox Church yesterday lent the nationalists unexpected support, calling the temporary name a "lie, trap and insult"....."

                          The West Australian, Saturday April 10, 1993.


                          ----------------

                          MACEDONIA SPURNS NAME (ILAWARRA MERCURY 1-4-1993)

                          "...A Government statement said it was "unwilling to accept the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia under any condition".....

                          ....."The only acceptable solution is for the republic to be recognised under its constitutional name (Republic of Macedonia)," the Macedonian Government said.

                          But sources close to the Government said Macedonia was only making a face-saving gesture for "domestic consumption in a show of protest to defuse strong nationalist opposition to the temporary name".

                          The sources, who refused to be named, pointed out the Government did not explicitly reject the resolution.
                          In an apparent collision course with the terse Government statement, Macedonian President Kiro Gligorov called on the nation to face up to reality.

                          Addressing the nation over state television, he appealed to Macedonians to "face up to reality without sacrificing any national interests"..."



                          Some lessons in recent Macedonian political history on political double-speak, deception, treasonous capitulation/betrayal and exposing those suffering from political AMNESIA (all those who claim to be patriots and dpmne supporters keeping true to the party's anti-capitulation ideology of the past!)!
                          Last edited by indigen; 01-23-2011, 05:25 PM.

                          Comment

                          • Ljubanec
                            Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 125

                            None of us are happy about being accepted into the UN under the acronym. If any of you read geography schoolbooks or maps during the 90's You would have seen the words F.Y.R.O.M. or Yugoslavia written over Macedonia. In some cases you might have seen FYR Macedonia.

                            There are many of you posting here claiming that Gruevski is a traitor and that he has sold out Macedonia, that the politicians had already agreed to change our name. I believe that lack of transparency by Macedonia and Athens has led to this. One of you even suggested raping and killing Gruevski's wife and daughter.

                            How many of you would suggest leaving the UN and all other organizations that refer to us by that acronym; OSCE, WTO,CEFTA, and WHO? We have non political organizations like FIFA and Eurovision that call us by this interim name and not Macedonia. Are you saying that we should leave these organizations as well? (I'll agree to Eurovision, they suck!)

                            If you guys do not realize that we are in a better position now then we were back in 91, then I don't know what to say

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              how true do the newsmedia ring when macedonia was christened FYROM.The politicians capitulated & are doing the same thing today instead of holding steadfast & unwavering they are giving in to the demands what can we expect from that more DOOM & GLOOM for macedonia.Indigen thanks for bringing that up to serve as a stark reminder for those who still doubt.
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • julie
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2009
                                • 3869

                                Originally posted by Ljubanec View Post
                                None of us are happy about being accepted into the UN under the acronym. If any of you read geography schoolbooks or maps during the 90's You would have seen the words F.Y.R.O.M. or Yugoslavia written over Macedonia. In some cases you might have seen FYR Macedonia.

                                There are many of you posting here claiming that Gruevski is a traitor and that he has sold out Macedonia, that the politicians had already agreed to change our name. I believe that lack of transparency by Macedonia and Athens has led to this. One of you even suggested raping and killing Gruevski's wife and daughter.

                                How many of you would suggest leaving the UN and all other organizations that refer to us by that acronym; OSCE, WTO,CEFTA, and WHO? We have non political organizations like FIFA and Eurovision that call us by this interim name and not Macedonia. Are you saying that we should leave these organizations as well? (I'll agree to Eurovision, they suck!)

                                If you guys do not realize that we are in a better position now then we were back in 91, then I don't know what to say
                                How is Macedonia in a better position today than in 91, can you please clarify
                                "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                                Comment

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