Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Soldier of Macedon]

The Maniates also refused (at first) to join the newly formed greek state. They are responsible for the assasination of Kapodistria, and took up arms against King Otto (at first).

Why?

Do you want me to post more book pages stating the southern Lakonians resisted the Ottoman, and their rebellious charachter?

Sure, if you're unable to provide the sources on which Kassis' assertions are based on, let's see what else there is.

How do you figure?
Ive responded to all your critisisms.

You've taken my criticisms in a less than heroic fashion.

In my opinion, no

Do many other Greeks share your view on the matter? Do people from Prilep not have a right to celebrate the Ilinden tradition in Macedonia because their city was held 'captive' by the Turks and saw no action for the duration of the rebellion? Do Macedonians that aren't from Krushevo not have a right to associate with the short-lived republic established in 1903? I don't think so, that's why I believe your opinion on this is wrong, unrealistic, and furthermore, selfish against other Greeks.

[Spartan]

Why?

In the case of Kapodistrias, he had Petrobey (Petrouklis to us) imprisoned over a taxation dispute (people refused to pay tax).
This was a big offense to the mavromichalis clan, and Petrobeys brother and son 'wacked' him in front of church one Sunday (all happened in 1831).
As for Otto, I believe that had to do with taxation as well, but imo, was probably more to do with their 'foreign ruler' complex.
Otto had to send a few armies to subdue Mani, as the initial campaigns were unsuccesful.
In the end they were pretty much paid/bribed to fall in line...which they did, and were loyal to the king from then on.

Sure, if you're unable to provide the sources on which Kassis' assertions are based on,

I was using that text to show that their was fighting/battles/resistance to the Ottoman inbetween 1450-1821. I dont know if every detail is correct, but i feel it is enough to prove the point I was initially arguing.

What exactly do you want to see?

You've taken my criticisms in a less than heroic fashion.

How so?

Do many other Greeks share your view on the matter?

Mine do.

that's why I believe your opinion on this is wrong, unrealistic, and furthermore, selfish against other Greeks.

You are entitled to your opinion.
I disagree.
I just dont see what the Thessalians have to do with Lakonian rebellions.
Here is an excellent assesment of my view in regards to this 'kinsmen' issue -

[Onur]

How do you figure?
Ive responded to all your critisisms.

But not to mines. You bring this Maniate story on the table as a "proof" of Turks never fully controlled Greece and thats why they couldn't assimilate you.

Let`s accept this Maniate story as a truth and they revolted to the Turkish Empire for centuries.


Then answer me why;

• Turks couldn't assimilate the Greeks in Istanbul and Aegean Anatolia? Why Greeks in Istanbul can speak ancient Byzantine Greek accent today while your fellow Maniates and all other Greece inhabitants never spoke this Greek tongue??

• or convert Turkish speaking Orthodox people of Karamanlis to Islam? Probably you don't know, Turkish Sultan even published Turkish bibles for them to contribute their religion. Read the book named "Karamanlidika" written by Greek author named Evangelia Balta to see the pictures of these bibles or come to Turkey to see it in the museums. Evangelia Balta is a descendant of Karamanlis ofc, since she got Turkish surname.

• or why we couldn't teach Turkish to the people of middle-east in 700 years while French achieved it in Algeria in period of 60 years and British did same to India. You know french is Algeria`s 2nd official language now.

• or why we couldn't convert all other Balkan people to Islam and force them to speak Turkish only?

I can write more examples but this should be enough for you to understand.

I wonder whats your response to this? You gonna say that it didn't happen cuz everyone resisted vs Turkish assimilation and Turks never fully controlled these places as well???

I suggest you to put aside your Turkish hate and accept the historical facts. Ottoman Empire was multi-cultural where descendants of Greek Byzantine always had a word and opinion in it and the other citizens than the Turks(according to the "Millet" system) lived in relatively free world in terms of medieval times. I repeat "In terms of mediaval times standarts", so don't try to judge it with 21th century human rights mindset.

You shouldn't force yourself to invent exaggerated fairy tales like Maniates or you gonna end up saying Ottoman Empire never existed in the end???


P. S: One more important thing. I found your behavior vs current Greek citizens as very discriminative and absurd. Greeks in Aegean Anatolia and Istanbul always regarded Greece inhabitants as peasants and Greek-like speaking mixed people throughout history. Also Greek population was always much higher in current Turkey than the ones in Greece `till 1924. They were speaking real Byzantine Greek language while inhabitants of Greece never knew this tongue and their Greek language was so different. So, they were real Greeks and you weren't so in their eyes but now, you call them as traitors and weaklings and consider yourself as real Greek atm. Whatta change of history. It`s full of contradictions, right?

[Spartan]

But not to mines.

I have asked you 2 times on this thread if you still stand by the statement thet 'no blood was spilled between 1453-1821'.
I have also asked you this - If possible, could you explain the good(benefits/positive experiences) the Ottoman occupation had on the Balkans?
What are your thoughts on the European rennaissance, and age of knowledge/enlightenment?
I have recieved no response, so why should I answer you?

You bring this Maniate story on the table as a "proof" of Turks never fully controlled Greece

There was no Greece back then. Dont judge those events by todays standards
The Turks, at times throughout their 350 yr reign in the Morea, didnt have full control of southern lakonia, and the maniates retained some semblence of independence....thats all im saying....do you disagree?

Let`s accept this Maniate story as a truth and they revolted to the Turkish Empire for centuries.

It is true.

Then answer me why;

• Turks couldn't assimilate the Greeks in Istanbul and Aegean Anatolia? Why Greeks in Istanbul can speak ancient Byzantine Greek accent today while your fellow Maniates and all other Greece inhabitants never spoke this Greek tongue??

• or convert Turkish speaking Orthodox people of Karamanlis to Islam? Probably you don't know, Turkish Sultan even published Turkish bibles for them to contribute their religion. Read the book named "Karamanlidika" written by Greek author named Evangelia Balta to see the pictures of these bibles or come to Turkey to see it in the museums. Evangelia Balta is a descendant of Karamanlis ofc, since she got Turkish surname.

• or why we couldn't teach Turkish to the people of middle-east in 700 years while French achieved it in Algeria in period of 60 years and British did same to India. You know french is Algeria`s 2nd official language now.

• or why we couldn't convert all other Balkan people to Islam and force them to speak Turkish only?

You should stop assuming my friend, you are inventing arguments from your imagination.
Im sorry you had to go to the trouble of writing all that out Onur (although Im sure you were dieing to), as i have little interest in the stories you write above. Im not denying what you say, and nowhere did I state that the Turks wanted to assimilate the southern greeks.
I was just responding to your statement that no blood was spilled between 11453-1821, and that small areas in southern lakonia resisted/rebelled/held out.
Do you disagree?

I can write more examples but this should be enough for you to understand.

Definitely...no need to write anymore, I feel bad as it is already that you had to write so much...... for nothing.

I wonder whats your response to this? You gonna say that it didn't happen cuz everyone resisted vs Turkish assimilation and Turks never fully controlled these places as well???

No...you should really stop assuming so much, or putting words in my mouth. from the looks of it, you could have a great debate with yourself...you dont need me

I suggest you to put aside your Turkish hate

Thank you for the advice....again.

and accept the historical facts.

Go back and quote which historical facts I have denied.
If you cant do that, stop assuming what I think and putting words in my mouth!

You shouldn't force yourself to invent exaggerated fairy tales like Maniates

What part of the Maniates resistance of the Turk do you consider a 'fairytale'?
Also, I did not 'invent' the Maniates, they are an actual people....I am one

or you gonna end up saying Ottoman Empire never existed in the end???

Why would i say that?
Are you feeling alright Onur?

P. S: One more important thing. I found your behavior vs current Greek citizens as very discriminative and absurd.

And?
What does it concern me what you think....go tell someone who cares , and stop parroting what SoM says (no offense to SoM, who is actually very sharp)...be yourself.
What do you care if I 'discriminate' against other greeks or not?

Greeks in Aegean Anatolia and Istanbul always regarded Greece inhabitants as peasants and Greek-like speaking mixed people throughout history.

Your point being?
I consider Turks to be dogs....do you care?

Also Greek population was always much higher in current Turkey than the ones in Greece `till 1924. They were speaking real Byzantine Greek language while inhabitants of Greece never knew this tongue and their Greek language was so different.

hahahahaha
Do you know greek?
Explain to me the differences in that case, outside the normal dialectical differences all languages have.
Different language, lol.

So, they were real Greeks and you weren't

They are entitled to their opinion...I disagree.

so in their eyes but now, you call them as traitors and weaklings

Just 'traitors' will suffice.

Whatta change of history. It`s full of contradictions, right?

Can you point out the contradictions in my stance?
Thanks

[Onur]

What do you care if I 'discriminate' against other greeks or not?

Your point being?
I consider Turks to be dogs....do you care?

hahahahaha
Do you know greek?
Explain to me the differences in that case, outside the normal dialectical differences all languages have.
Different language, lol.

I meant mutual intelligibility between Pontic immigrant and your braveheart Maniate people. I know that modern Greek speakers can hardly or don't understand a Greek from Istanbul when they speak their ancient tongue.

Spartan, you are playing with words when you are out of counter-arguments or you start name calling me like "Mongols, dogs" like u did above. I don't think its possible to have healthy conversation with you cuz you are very stubborn and self-opinionated.

So, i wont enter arguments with you about these Turks vs Greeks issues cuz i don't think its possible to reach a common ground.

[Prolet]

Onur, If it was that easy we'd all be friends now but its hard to negotiate with Greeks especially those who are born to hate you.

Either way maybe one day things will be different, there is always room for hope. The rivalries will always be there but there is no need to behave like animals, if the Germans,Dutch,French can all get along i dont see why we cant in the Balkans.

[osiris]

because we have a nation that lives a fantasy that creates hatred and bullies whoever the can at every opportunity
because we live near a medieval nation hells arse and until they change and i cant see it happening soon we will continue to have problems in the balkans.

[julie]

Prolet, Osiris has said it well.
It will never happen, the support HellAss receive from yankee doodles and the west to destabilise Macedonia
what has hope got to do with it, bratchko ?

[Prolet]

Julie, Spolaj Ti Mnogu Sestro

We do live in the 21st century here, surly we have the right to exist. Maybe in 10 years time things will be different.

[julie]

in 10 years lets hope that RoM wont be partitioned off as well the way the bullshit seems to be flying in this 21st century. Because we will only exist in our own hearts.

[Spartan]

I meant mutual intelligibility between Pontic immigrant and your braveheart Maniate people.

You should have stated so

I know that modern Greek speakers can hardly or don't understand a Greek from Istanbul when they speak their ancient tongue.

Stupidest thing ive ever heard....what 'ancient toungue'?

Spartan, you are playing with words when you are out of counter-arguments

I have countered everything youve said
What words am i playing with?
You on the other hand have neither countered or responded to any of my questions!
Wanna give it a go?

I have asked you 2 times on this thread if you still stand by the statement thet 'no blood was spilled between 1453-1821'.
I have also asked you this - If possible, could you explain the good(benefits/positive experiences) the Ottoman occupation had on the Balkans?
What are your thoughts on the European rennaissance, and age of knowledge/enlightenment?

The Turks, at times throughout their 350 yr reign in the Morea, didnt have full control of southern lakonia, and the maniates retained some semblence of independence....thats all im saying....do you disagree?

Go back and quote which historical facts I have denied.

Do you know greek?
Explain to me the differences in that case, outside the normal dialectical differences all languages have

Can you point out the contradictions in my stance?

Can you answer any of the above, as I have answered all your questions!!?

or you start name calling me like "Mongols, dogs" like u did above.

Like I said, be a man...If you can dish it , take it.... You told me my forefathers are a 'fairytale'.
I said yours are 'dogs' in an effort to make a point which obviously escaped you.....

I don't think its possible to have healthy conversation with you cuz you are very stubborn and self-opinionated.

HAHAHAHAH
Sounds like white towel time Onur

So, i wont enter arguments with you about these Turks vs Greeks issues cuz i don't think its possible to reach a common ground.

You wont enter these arguments because you have none in regards to this topic.
Next time, hopefully you'll think twice before entering a debate amongst MEN....

[Bill77]

Spitting the dummy again are you spartan???? You are a toser mate.

Onur, you are whaisting your time with this racist fake idiot. Keep up the good work onur, You are a A1 contributor friend.

[Spartan]

edit.............

[Ottoman]

Ataturk his ancestors were from Karaman, they were Turkmens (Oghuz Turks) and definitely not Albanian or Macedonian.

Here is a source in Turkish: http://www.yorumla.net/m-kemal-atatu...e-dayanir.html

This is the first time I hear that Ataturk is partly Macedonian, as far as I and most Turks know he was Turkmen.

[Ottoman]

This is true because Turks never aimed to convert people to Islam or forced everyone to accept Turkish identity. Ottoman Empire was always multi-cultural state since the 1st day of its foundation. It was never a pure Turkish state for Turks only. If it would be like that, Turks could easily assimilate and convert everyone in whole Balkans as muslims and Turks in 600 years. If Greeks did this in 100 years, why Turks wouldn't in 600 years with all that richness and nearly unbeatable power??? because Turks never wanted to do that.

In the Ottoman Empire everybody was equal because everyone was considered as an Ottoman, you just dont need to forget that the Turks spread Ottoman culture all over the Balkans, you will find many Turkish elements in every almost Balkan nation; their cuisine, clothing, art, architecture, lifestyle and even languages are heavily influenced by Turkish elements.

The Serbian and Greek languages have/had many Turkish words in them. However Greeks replaced many of those words with Greek ones.