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Old 08-04-2014, 03:34 PM   #61
Constellation
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Do you know of any medieval sources which refer to them as 'Greeks'?
I never said that there were. Nor am I making the claim that the brothers were Greek. I wrote that is how the world sees them. Or more accurately, that is the general consensus or establishment interpretation of history.

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If that is what the answer would have to be as you've indicated above, how does that fit into to your theory that today's Macedonians are genetically different to those 'pagan Slavs'?
I see what you are implying here. The problem, however, is that I am not arguing what is true or what is not true. When I analyze history – not necessarily my interpretation of history – I follow what I think are logical ends.

Thus, in this instance, I am arguing if the established position were true, which is to say, the brothers were Greek, and so-called “Slavs” migrated to Macedonia, they would have presumably wiped out the existing populations. The logical conclusion from the mainstream interpretation of history is that Macedonia was Christianized in the first century. So-called “Slavs” migrated to the Balkans in the 6th and subsequent centuries, including Macedonia. These people (by logical inference and from history) were not Christened. Because they were not Christened, the mainstream interpretation of history also states that the Greek brothers sought to convert them to Christianity and create an alphabet to this end. Thus, they were the apostle to the Slavs.

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What language do you think they spoke as a vernacular?
I think the brothers were ethnic Macedonians, and spoke Macedonian, though I have no doubt that because the New Testament was written in Greek, and the East Byzantium Empire also used Greek, that Greek was also well known.

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Interesting question. What is your theory on the above?
If the brothers were ethnic Macedonians, they would have likely spoken a Macedonian tongue. It is doubtful that this tongue was different than the ancient Macedonian language, but this cannot be conclusively stated. I find it very unlikely that the so-called Slavs in Macedonia – who could not have been more than 15% or so of the population – would not have been absorbed by ethnic Macedonians and adopted the native Macedonian language and culture.

The established interpretation of history is that the so-called Slavs in Greece were absorbed by the Greeks and adopted the Hellenic language and culture. We know from genetics that the so-called Slavs in today's Greek boundaries, as far south as Greece, could not have been more than 15% or so, and yet we are supposed to believe that the Slavs were Hellenized.

And yet in Macedonia, where the so-called Slavs were about the same proportion in numbers, we are supposed to believe that their language was forced on the indigenous population. This would only make sense if the indigenous Macedonians were wiped out – a fact which contradicts DNA evidence. But considering the dominant genetics of the modern Macedonians is very similar to its southern neighbors – or put differently, Mediterranean Balkan – it is not logical to argue the so-called Slavs dominated.

So if the brothers spoke Macedonian, and this Macedonian was similar or the same as the ancient Macedonian language, it is not logical that they would not absorb and convert a small portion of the invading Slavs, similar as the Greeks did in Greece. It is very illogical to believe that they created a foreign alphabet for the invaders, when they could have easily taught them their language. And then it is even more illogical to believe that after being Christened, they became the dominant people of the region, and then forced Slavic, a foreign tongue, on ethnic Macedonians. In the 9th and subsequent centuries there is no historical data that would remotely suggest this either.

Conversely, if the brothers were Greek, and again the so-called Slavs in the region were about 15% or so, why would the Greek brothers not Hellenize them, like they did with the so-called Slavs in what is now modern day Greece? How did these Greek brothers create this alphabet for the locals in Macedonia? And why didn't they do that in Greece? Not logical.

If we start with the assumption that the brothers were ethnic Macedonians and they spoke a language similar to the ancients, and that this language was Slavic, it would make sense for them to create an alphabet to convert the so-called Slavs. But another question arises – what language did the so-called Slavs speak? Alinei and others would state Slavic. And that in the past the Slavic language migrated from the south to the north, from which it split into east and west. Maybe. But maybe not. Maybe the language the so-called Slavs spoke was not Slavic at all. And maybe this is the point of time in history that the so-called Slavs adopted Slavic. This would perhaps explain why no one seemed to think or record that the invaders spoke a similar language to the Balkan peoples. Maybe it is from here that the language only continued north and then split.

If true, I still do not believe there is an ethnic or biological ancestor between these peoples, as genetic studies do not allow it.

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Old 08-07-2014, 09:25 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
......that is the general consensus or establishment interpretation of history.
Does this 'established interpretation of history' consider them 'Greek' in an ethnic sense or 'Greek' as in the general term once often used in western historiography to refer to Christian citizens of the East Roman Empire or elements of the Orthodox world in general?
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If the brothers were ethnic Macedonians, they would have likely spoken a Macedonian tongue. It is doubtful that this tongue was different than the ancient Macedonian language, but this cannot be conclusively stated. I find it very unlikely that the so-called Slavs in Macedonia – who could not have been more than 15% or so of the population – would not have been absorbed by ethnic Macedonians and adopted the native Macedonian language and culture.

The established interpretation of history is that the so-called Slavs in Greece were absorbed by the Greeks and adopted the Hellenic language and culture. We know from genetics that the so-called Slavs in today's Greek boundaries, as far south as Greece, could not have been more than 15% or so, and yet we are supposed to believe that the Slavs were Hellenized.

And yet in Macedonia, where the so-called Slavs were about the same proportion in numbers, we are supposed to believe that their language was forced on the indigenous population. This would only make sense if the indigenous Macedonians were wiped out – a fact which contradicts DNA evidence. But considering the dominant genetics of the modern Macedonians is very similar to its southern neighbors – or put differently, Mediterranean Balkan – it is not logical to argue the so-called Slavs dominated.

So if the brothers spoke Macedonian, and this Macedonian was similar or the same as the ancient Macedonian language, it is not logical that they would not absorb and convert a small portion of the invading Slavs, similar as the Greeks did in Greece. It is very illogical to believe that they created a foreign alphabet for the invaders, when they could have easily taught them their language. And then it is even more illogical to believe that after being Christened, they became the dominant people of the region, and then forced Slavic, a foreign tongue, on ethnic Macedonians. In the 9th and subsequent centuries there is no historical data that would remotely suggest this either.

Conversely, if the brothers were Greek, and again the so-called Slavs in the region were about 15% or so, why would the Greek brothers not Hellenize them, like they did with the so-called Slavs in what is now modern day Greece? How did these Greek brothers create this alphabet for the locals in Macedonia? And why didn't they do that in Greece? Not logical.

If we start with the assumption that the brothers were ethnic Macedonians and they spoke a language similar to the ancients, and that this language was Slavic, it would make sense for them to create an alphabet to convert the so-called Slavs. But another question arises – what language did the so-called Slavs speak? Alinei and others would state Slavic. And that in the past the Slavic language migrated from the south to the north, from which it split into east and west. Maybe. But maybe not. Maybe the language the so-called Slavs spoke was not Slavic at all. And maybe this is the point of time in history that the so-called Slavs adopted Slavic. This would perhaps explain why no one seemed to think or record that the invaders spoke a similar language to the Balkan peoples. Maybe it is from here that the language only continued north and then split.
With your last sentence are you suggesting that the Macedonian dialect used by Cyril and Methodius to translate religious works was adopted by people who spoke unrelated languages as far north as Moravia and Russia?
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:18 AM   #63
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The following comes from The Times’s print archive, before the start of online publication in 1996. It is from 1985.

URL:
https://www.nytimes.com/1985/08/10/o...vs-182081.html

CYRIL AND METHODIUS: NEITHER GREEKS NOR BULGARIANS - BUT SLAVS

AUG. 10, 1985

To the Editor:

Your correspondents on the ''Apostoli Slavorum'' - Vicki Tamir, W. W. Derbyshire (July 12) and Louis Marck (July 24) - have ignored the documented record of history and have made unsubstantiated claims on the ethnic background and other aspects of the work of the two ninth-century brothers from Salonika.

Saints Cyril (Constantine) and Methodius were neither Greeks nor Bulgarians. They were Slavs from Macedonia.

True, they were the sons of a Byzantine official from Salonika, they were educated at the Magnaur Academy in the imperial court of Byzantium and Cyril was chief of the patriarchal library in Constantinople. But that does not make them Greeks. It was not uncommon for non-Greeks to occupy the highest positions in Byzantium. Numerous emperors were of Armenian or Syrian origin. Patriarch Nikita (766-780) was a Slav, and two of the seven regents who in 912, upon the death of Emperor Leo VI, took over the government for Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenetus (912-959) were Slavs.

The father of the creators of the Slavic alphabet may also have been a Slav in Byzantine military service. Their perfect rendition of the Slavic language (phonetically and lexically) in their translations of the biblical and liturgical books from Greek indicates a Slavic background.

That neither Cyril and Methodius nor their disciples ever returned to Constantinople, and also that the ecclesiastical and imperial authorities never showed any further interest in them and their mission, are further indications that they did not have strong ties with the center of Greek culture and government.

Likewise, it is true that the language of Cyril and Methodius, for which they created the Slavic alphabet and in which they translated portions of the Bible and some liturgical books, was the same language that at the time was spoken by the Slavs from Ochrid to the Black Sea, and that this language eventually became known as Bulgarian. Slavic scholarship today calls it ''Old Bulgarian.''

It is also true that after the failure of their mission among the western Slavs, following the death of Methodius in 885, the disciples of the Salonika brothers sought refuge and found generous support in the Bulgarian court of King Boris I. It is further true that the Slavs in Macedonia, the people of Cyril and Methodius, together with the Slavs of Thrace and the Danubian plain, eventually formed the Bulgarian nation.

But all these events took place after the death of the apostles of the Slavs. Cyril and Methodius were not born in Bulgaria. They were raised among people and spoke and wrote a language that became known as Bulgarian. It is for these reasons that they have been considered by the Bulgarians as their national saints and honored and worshiped for 1,000 years.

Saints Cyril and Methodius were, most probably, born in a Slavic family in Salonika. This is the record of history. To argue beyond that for a Greek or for a Bulgarian ''theory'' is just modern-day chauvinistic politics.


SPAS T. RAIKIN Associate Professor of History East Stroudsburg University East Stroudsburg, Pa., July 25, 1985

Spas Raikin was a Bulgarian-American historian. He was born to a poor peasant family, herded cows and sheep until he was admitted to the Plovdiv Theological Seminary. He graduated with honors and went on to study in the School of Theology in Sofia University and teach in the Sofia Theological Seminary.

https://www.hoover.org/news/oswalds-...-raikin-papers

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Old 11-10-2018, 08:26 PM   #64
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I'm quite sure Kiril and Metodi didn't speak the Turkic language of the Bulgars.
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Old 11-11-2018, 10:35 AM   #65
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Old 05-24-2019, 09:56 PM   #66
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Светите Кирил и Методиј ја сметале Македонија за своја татковина

Од Радмила Заревска - 24.05.2019

URL:
https://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/ma...C%D0%B0%D0%BA/

Сесловенските просветители, светите Кирил и Методиј, денес во современиот свет се единствените личности кои можат да се дефинираат како мост меѓу вечниот ривалитет на Источна и Западна Европа. Ако нивната просветителско-христијанска мисија беше столбот на едниот крај од Европа, одлуката на папата Иван Павле Втори да ги прогласи за созаштитници на Европа е столбот од тој мост на другиот крај на Европа. Секоја година на 24 мај продолжува да се слави нивното дело, најмногу од словенските народи.

Професор д-р Илија Велев, медиевист и византолог од Институтот за македонска литература при универзитетот Свети Кирил и Методиј во Скопје вели дека епохалната улога на светите Кирил и Методиј во нивното време и натаму во традицијата ги издигнува како христијански рамноапостоли и сесловенски просветители, пред сѐ поради нивното достигнување за афирмација на третата христијанска цивилизација и култура во Европа словенската, веднаш по византиско-грчката и по римолатинската.

Тие за првпат го активирале феноменот на словенскиот фактор како своевиден политички, црковен или културолошки баланс во идниот растеж на европската цивилизација и култура преку источната и западната традиција. Со нагласен филозофски протагонизам се впуштиле во борба против тријазичната догма како кон нехумано учење, притоа бранејќи го новиот европски хуманизам во духовниот и во интеркултурниот однос за рамноправноста на јазиците и за еднаквоста меѓу народите како траен прогресивен принцип на глобализацијата објаснува Велев.

Руската црква го одредила 24 мај

Професорот Илија Велев вели дека следбениците на светите Кирил и Методиј се едни од најзаслужните за зачувување на нивниот спомен и нивното дело, кое интензивно го ширеле веднаш по нивната смрт, но требало да помине долго време црквата и официјално да ги признае како едни од најзначајните словенски богоучители. Според Велев, нивните први фрески се среќаваат во средновековните цркви во Македонија.
Дури до просветителските пројави во поствизантискиот период и до народните будења во Преродбата на 19 век, култните облици за свети Константин-Кирил главно се манифестирале во диецезата на Охридската архиепископија, за што сведочат постарите сочувани преписи на кратките календарски вести и на житиеписните или на химнографските состави за него во ракописното наследство од Охридската книжевна школа, преку која подоцна биле пренесени и во руската духовна и книжевна традиција. И неговите најстари сочувани портрети во фрескоживописите се евидентираат по средновековните храмови од Македонија. Со појавата на славистиката како посебна научна област од 20-тите години на 19 век па наваму, се интензивирал и истражувачкиот интерес за неговото дело, при што сесловенското кирилометодиевско просветителство постапно се втемелило во основата на славистичките проучувања вели професорот.

Според него, од 1863 година, откако се прославиле 1.000 години од словенската писменост, Синодот на Руската православна црква донел одлука секоја година на 11 мај (односно на 24 мај по новиот стил) да се слави општословенски празник на сесловенските просветители како ден на просветата.
На тој начин Руската црква ја поткрепила сопствената доминација сообразена со духовната и со културно-просветната пансловенска идеја. С до денес празнувањето на 24 мај (односно на 11 мај по стар стил) има нагласена актуелност како ден на словенската просвета во сите словенски средини. Ова празнување веќе со статус на државно го поставува во привидна сенка главниот светителски празник за упокојувањето на св. Константин-Кирил на 27 февруари (односно на 14 февруари по стар стил) додава Велев.

Азбуката нивно оружје

Теологот Ратомир Грозданоски од Богословскиот факултет во Скопје истакнува дека светите Кирил и Методиј во православната црква се прославуваат како свети рамноапостолни учители словенски.
Кирил бил монах, а Методиј епископ и архиепископ. И двајцата биле многу учени луѓе. Вброени се меѓу најучените во целата византиска империја. Нивното потекло било од Македонија. Тие го познавале својот народ и мајчиниот јазик. Затоа, на тој јазик ги создале и првото писмо и азбуката и ги поставиле правилата за пишување додава Гроздановски.

Професорот појаснува и зошто тие создале азбука и писмо.
Браќата го направиле тоа со мисла за подобро да ја исполнат својата желба, а нивната желба била да му служат на бога, проповедајќи го неговото спасително учење меѓу својот народ и тоа на разбирлив народен јазик и писмо. Само така може да се објасни и да се сфати делото што го правеле овие свети мажи. И прво нешто што напишале со новите букви било Евангелието. Тие го превеле Светото писмо на мајчин јазик, на старомакедонскиот словенски јазик со македонско наречје. А по Библијата ги превеле и богослужбените книги за да воведат богослужби на словенски јазик и да го зајакнуваат народниот дух на словенскиот род. Кон тоа можел да ги повлече само патриотизмот, како родољубиви словени. Дека, пак, светите Кирил и Методиј својата родна земја Македонија ја чувствувале како своја татковина, а Македонците за свој род, говорат и текстовите од Службата на свети Методиј, во која се вели дека остави род и татковина и замина да живее со светите отци додава Грозданоски.

Признаени и во Ватикан

Светите браќа, иако доаѓале од Источната црква и се бореле во тоа време против тријазичниците, форсирајќи го божјото слово и на словенски јазик, станале култни личности и за Рим, седиштето на Западната црква. Но како всушност Ватикан ја добива нивната доверба?

Професорот Ратомир Грозданоски од Богословскиот факултет во Скопје објаснува дека тоа се случило во еден од најтешките периоди од нивниот живот, кога двајцата браќа поради прогон заминале за Рим, каде што биле свечено пречекани од новиот папа Адријан Втори и од римските граѓани, затоа што ги носеле со себе и моштите на свети Климент Римски.

Папата дури одобрил да се постави словенското Евангелие во олтарот на катедралата Свети Петар. А во црквата Света Дева Марија, која и денес постои под името Санта Мариа Маџиоре, била отслужена и света литургија на словенски јазик. Папата се сретнал со основачите на словенската литургија, писменост и книжевност. Ги примил како светии, со голема почит го одобрил и го благословил нивното дело и ги осветил словенските книги. Со тоа тој го признал словенското писмо за свето и допуштил да се употребува на богослужбите вели професорот Грозданоски.

Гробот на свети Методиј сѐ уште е мистерија

Македонската делегација досега не пропуштила да се поклони пред гробот на свети Кирил во црквата Свети Климент во Рим и со тоа да ја искаже својата почит кон создателот на азбучното писмо. Иако придонесот за словенската култура е заеднички (на двајцата браќа), сепак целата приказна за нивниот живот и мисија како да останува празна или, пак, како што велат научниците, незавршена, поради мистерија за местото каде што се наоѓа гробот на постариот брат Методиј. Местото каде што е погребан свети Методиј и постоењето на неговите мошти сѐ уште се предизвик за археологијата и за историчарите. Постојат неколку хипотези каде се наоѓа гробот на свети Методиј, а најпозната е онаа на чешките археолози и историчари кои тврдат дека го откриле местото на гробот, во поранешна Велика Морава во градот Микулчице, денешен Велиград. Некои владици на Македонската православна црква-ОА одат и во градот Елванген, Германија, да се поклонат пред спомен-плочите на свети Методиј, кој дел од животот во заробеништво го поминал токму во тој град.
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