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Old 12-24-2008, 04:32 AM   #41
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Marko's father was born in Livno, which is in the extreme west of Bosnia bordering Dalmatia. If I recall correctly Orbini claims that the story about Volkasin and Uglesha was told to him by a Dalmatian. This also happens to be very close to the area in which the Croatian king Tomislav was crowned.
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Old 12-24-2008, 05:05 AM   #42
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I have source of heraldy which blame that many have left their proprety in Macedonia and went to Bosna and Dalmatia,so probebly Orbini is shareing Ilirian idea,The book is about Macedonian coat of arms,there was a guy who was big head in Spanish kingdom,the quin was just about to give him title of a lord and he had to prove his blue blod.His name was Relja Ohmučevič,Macedonian from Bosna,the book said thet he is also the guy who bild Rila monastry,the name is also the same Relja-Rila,i dont know That Ilirian ideaof Orbini is like proslavic idea in 1945.

Also i personaly belive that real Ilirians are SERBS CROATS and SLOVENES.
And about name VUK or VOLK,in Kosovo batlle the guy name was VUK Obradović,and that was in 1389,i wil found the source that pruves that.
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Old 12-24-2008, 05:29 AM   #43
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If you can find the book and scan some pages to post here it would be great.

I am not sure about how significant the legend and legacy of King Marko is with all Macedonians, even though he ruled nearly all of Macedonia. I know in my family we were told stories about him, and he is rightfully considered as a king of Macedonia and consequently 'ours'. The 19th century Macedonian writer Kuzman Shapkarev said that his father (or grandfather) told him stories about our history consisting mainly of two characters, Alexander the Great and King Marko.

How about the other Macedonians on this forum, does King Marko have a place in our history as far as your a) upbringing, and b) current way of thought are concerned?
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Old 12-24-2008, 06:19 AM   #44
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I will do that,just not shure how to upload them on the forum?I'll tray first and then i will ask for help if it would be dificult.
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Old 12-24-2008, 06:32 AM   #45
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Use imageshack.com
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Old 12-24-2008, 09:28 AM   #46
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I tray but i cant,The book title is Grbovite na Makedonija-dr.Aleksandar Matkovski,page 38-39,44-51,i scaned it by i cant upload them there,i can do it on Wiki,but they will baned me if i do that(copright),i registrate my self on adrese you gave me,but no message back to my mail.

Here it is writen VUK OBRADOVIČ and Volkašin Mrnjavčevič....
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Old 12-24-2008, 10:03 AM   #47
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Sorry bate, my mistake, go to the following link:

http://imageshack.us/


From here, go to browse, choose the pic, and then upload. When you have done that select the 'Hotlink for forum 1' link and paste it here on the forum. It should work. This book sounds very interesting, I think I have seen bits and pieces of it on the net, but nothing extensive.
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Old 12-25-2008, 04:07 AM   #48
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:39 AM   #49
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Here is some more information about King Marko, his father Volkasin and uncle Uglesha, provided by the Serbian writer George Ostrogorski, in his 'History of the Byzantine State'. (In the brackets are my comments):

Quote:
Pages 540-541

John V (East Roman Emperor) had failed to get help, but the urgency of his need was brought home by another devastating Turkish victory. After the establishment of the Ottomans in Thrace, Macedonia seemed the most seriously threatened province. The despot John Uglesha who ruled Serres was the first 'to take up arms against the godless Muslims'. He wished to organize a greater counter-offensive against the conqueror and he called on Byzantium to join 'the common struggle against the common enemy'. He went so far as to meet the Byzantines by condemning in the strongest terms the elevation of Dushan to the rank of Emperor and the setting up of the Serbian patriarchate, and by recognizing the jurisdiction of the patriarchate of Constantinople within his own territory. Nevertheless, only his brother, king Vukashin, joined him. The brothers led their army against Adrianople and clashed with the enemy at Chernomen at on the Maritsa. Here their forces were destroyed by the Turks on the 26 September 1371. Both Uglesha and Vukashin were killed and thus the two strongest personalities of the time in the Balkans disappeared from the scene. After this catastrophe Macedonia lost its independence. the local princes, including Vukashin's son, Kraljevich Marko, the hero of the Serbian (and Macedonian) folk-songs, had to recognize the suzerainty of the Sultan and pledge themselves to pay tribute and perform military service..........................
Although Ostrogorski is of the view that Volkasin, Uglesha and Marko could only be Serbs, being a Serb himself, he cannot look past the fact that Macedonia constituted an entity of its own during this time under the two brothers. Furthermore, he refers to an incident which re-inforces the scene of animosity between the Macedonian south and the Serbian north, when Uglesha spoke to the East Romans about the wrongs of Dushan and of unity against the Turks.

Another point is the reference to Marko (of Prilep in Macedonia) being the hero of Serbian folk-songs while conveniently avoiding to make reference of Marko in the literature and historical memory of the Macedonians. Further to this point, King Marko and his family were anti-Nemanjich therefore against the Serbian royalty and people of Serbian-populated territories, so given the significance attributed to Stefan Dushan and the Nemanjich family where it concern the history of the Serbs as a nation, King Marko is more a villian than a hero in actual Serbian history.

Quote:
Page 551

In fulfilment of their obligation as vassals, a number of Christians fought on the side of the Ottomans, including the Serbian prince Stephen Lazarevich, son and heir of the hero of Kosovo, Vukashin's son Marko who ruled a small area round Prilep, and Constantine Dragash, the father-in-law of Manuel II who governed eastern Macedonia. King Marko and Constantine Dragash were killed in the battle.
The 'hero' of Serbian folk-songs is the ruler of a mere 'small area' around Prilep? Ostrogorski's attempts to minimize the significance of King Marko's area of power cannot be backed up by facts in this case, as the history of the people, churches and literature in Macedonia say otherwise, proving that King Marko's domains and sphere of influence stretched far beyond the Macedonian city of Prilep.
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:44 AM   #50
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Brief excerpt of a song about King Marko, recorded by the Miladinov brothers in Macedonia during the early 1860's.

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