Albanian view of Ottoman era

[Onur]

I highly doubt that Albanians would be Hellenized when we keep in mind fact that Ali Pasha and the nucleus of his semi-independent state were "Muslim" Albanians who have no clue what is Hellenism or Hellenic culture.

I don't know much about Ali pasha`s uprising but as far as remember, he was using Greek instead of Albanian language in all of his letters, documents etc. I think i saw the letters of Ali pasha to the Ottoman Sultan b4. It was written in Greek by himself. I wonder why he didn't write in Albanian or Turkish but used Greek instead?

Also, as soon as Ali pasha`s uprising ended with his death, Greek uprising in Morea started in 1820s. This was a total coincidence for you?

These are just my suspicions but i don't know anything for sure.

Albanians had chance to be "Greeks" or to declare their country as "Greece" but instead they declared proudly themselves as ALBANIANS (both Muslims and Orthodoxes).

Actually you also partly owe your independence to the Italians. Venizelos demanded from great powers to let him annex Albania(Epirus according to him) and they were pretty OK with it but Italy refused that to prevent creation of British puppet, giant Hellenic Kingdom.

It would be quite incorrect to say "Turks" (at the context we are talking about) because the best expression that fits to that period is "Ottoman" or "Ottomanism" (or in the context "Ottomans..."). Of course, Ottoman troops made hostile represails against everyone who joined anti-Ottoman revolts and this is well-documented. It is very meaningless to doubt or even worst, to review this reality.

My bad! but you know, Europeans always refer to us as Ottomans if it`s about a good thing but when it comes to bad memories, it was always Turks only, not Ottomans.

Hostile reprisals against revolts? Do you expect something else? You know, Balkans was about ~500 year old Ottoman territories, "European part of Turkey" according to westerners. So, if someone revolts in your 500 year old lands, you usually respond with hostile actions against them in early 20th century as all other states does same.

Also, when i said Ottoman empire era, i meant 600 years of time, not only 1900s. So tell me when Ottomans oppressed Albanians in that 600 years of time? This question is even absurd cuz that term "Ottomans" also includes about 30-40 Albanian viziers and numerous governors etc.

Ottoman empire even after Young Turk "revolution" fought against Albanian schools. Young-Turks tolerated only Greek schools...so Greece owe its success in hellenization of southern Albanians to the Ottoman Empire...

Thats a lie. Even about ~20% of the parliament in Young Turks rule was consisted of Albanians. There was no such a thing as anti-Albanian stance.

Yes, Greeks was always favored among christians and to me, this was the biggest mistake of Ottoman era but when Turks decided to that, they weren't Greeks but they were Romans. They became Greeks only after second half of 19th century. When Turkish rulers understood that things was wrong with Istanbul patriarchy, it was too late anymore and they had no power to abolish their privileges. They had to do that in 1453 AD and set all the christians free from the grasp of ex-Romans, neo-Greeks.


But, don't blame only Turks for that. Your Morean cousins was very savage too. You know they massacred their muslim Albanian kinsmen in there at 1820. So, they were fully blinded with Greek propaganda and bloodthirstiness against their muslim kinsmen.

[Epirot]

I don't know much about Ali pasha`s uprising but as far as remember, he was using Greek instead of Albanian language in all of his letters, documents etc. I think i saw the letters of Ali pasha to the Ottoman Sultan b4. It was written in Greek by himself. I wonder why he didn't write in Albanian or Turkish but used Greek instead?

It's a simple answer, Onur! Ali used Greek as a language of correspondence as did a number of Albanian beys. Does it say to you about their "Greekness"? In Bulgaria, for instance, all upper classes adopted Greek as language of writing, but we know for sure how Greeks are Bulgarians? For my personal opinion, Ali used purposefully Greek in order to differentiate his court from every Ottoman appearance. You know at the time in Europe...PhilHellenism flourished and Ali was aware of that. So he tried skillfully to use this element in favor of his pretensions.

Actually you also partly owe your independence to the Italians. Venizelos demanded from great powers to let him annex Albania(Epirus according to him) and they were pretty OK with it but Italy refused that to prevent creation of British puppet, giant Hellenic Kingdom.

Onur..I don't think that your way of explaining things is correct because you give more importance to the foreign situations in the determining of Albanian independence. The independence of Albania (in fact it was not such because most of Albanians could not enjoy the independence because Serbia, Montenegro and Greece conquered and divided between them our lands...as they did with the Macedonian lands. Albanians owed independence to the continuous struggles initiated by them. I am not saying that Italy did not support our independence but to say that Italy determined Albanian independence is very untrue.

So tell me when Ottomans oppressed Albanians in that 600 years of time?

Yes...it was exactly the period in the end of XVII century, when Austrian empire begun the "total war" against Ottoman empire. It is well-known that a number of Christians joined en masse to the Austrians...so did Albanians. But when Austro-"Balkanian" alliance was defeated, Ottomans oppressed harshly all Christian Albanians. That's why a number of Orthodox Albanians migrated in north of Danube...also Catholic Albanians were forced to leave their ancestral lands and to migrate mainly in Italy.

Thats a lie. Even about ~20% of the parliament in Young Turks rule was consisted of Albanians. There was no such a thing as anti-Albanian stance.

This fact does not say nothing. Although in parliament Albanians have certain seats...this does not say nothing because Young-Turks have the power of rule in their hands. And to know more about anti-Albanian stance of Young-Turks, I suggest to read immediately Edith Durham or any other historian who wrote about this period of Ottoman Empire's history.

But, don't blame only Turks for that. Your Morean cousins was very savage too. You know they massacred their muslim Albanian kinsmen in there at 1820. So, they were fully blinded with Greek propaganda and bloodthirstiness against their muslim kinsmen

I am not blaming only Turks for being hostile to Albanians. It is an undeniable fact the brutality of our deluded cousins against us. But I can not hide the fact that Ottoman empire employed double standards. It tolerated the expansionist streams of Serbs, Bulgars and Greeks within its territory but in other hand, suppressed all attempts of Albanians, Macedonians, Vlachs and Muslims to consolidate themselves as autonomous parts of Ottoman Empire. If Ottoman empire would tolerate the formation of autonomous units in Balkans, I am pretty sure that Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria and Greece could not expand in our lands.

[Risto the Great]

This reminds me of a Greek proverb. " Two Donkeys Arguing in a Foreign Barn "

Both are Anti-Greek but cant decide on which approach to use.

Voltron,
I don't think anyone was really giving a shit about Greece in this discussion. If that is what you were trying to say.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This reminds me of a Greek proverb. " Two Donkeys Arguing in a Foreign Barn "

Both are Anti-Greek but cant decide on which approach to use.

Enter the irrelevant and proverbial 'confused donkey', again.

[Voltron]

My bad. Post removed.

[Ottoman]

Ottoman empire even after Young Turk "revolution" fought against Albanian schools. Young-Turks tolerated only Greek schools...so Greece owe its success in hellenization of southern Albanians to the Ottoman Empire...

Lol, what the fuck is this bullshit?

Epirot are you a clown?

[Onur]

There was two articles about Kosovo in Turkish media today.

Apparently an ethnic Turkish teacher(Kosovar, not from Turkey) appointed as an assistant manager to a small primary school. There are about 2000 Albanian and 200 Turkish Kosovar kids in there. After this appointment, all the Albanian teachers starts protesting and refuses to teach in the school and they demand an Albanian teacher to be the assistant manager, not a Turkish one. Also after this events, Albanian kids and their families starts harassing the Turkish kids in the school. Worst of all, there are Turkish teachers and Turkish language education in this primary school since 1951.


I really cant believe this. Albanians are in the Macedonian government and we have Albanians in every important positions in Turkey. My city, Izmir`s previous mayor was an Albanian immigrant from Pristina. BUT, they don't even allow Kosovar Turk to be an assistant manager in a stupid primary school!!!

http://www.sondakika.com/haber-kosovali-turk-siyasiler-ve-kosova-turk-2522935/

____________________________________


Another Kosovar Turkish teacher has been collected the anti-Turkish parts in various geography and history school books for Albanian kids of 4-5-6th grade and sends all of his notes to Turkish politicians and to the media. This was in Turkish media today and it looks like all the Albanian kids are learning fictional things in geography lessons. They are being indoctrinated with Illyria nonsense which includes territories of Macedonia. Then also eastern part of Turkey being shown as Armenia, southeastern part as Kurdistan and Blacksea side as Pontika. Interesting part is, Kosovar Turks says that USA officials delivered these maps to all the primary and elementary schools in Kosovo and Albanian kids getting educated with all that nonsense. They also say that in their history books, there are drawings of Albanian soldiers on horse, running over Turkish flags and includes a lot of anti-Turkish propaganda. They also say that these history books for Albanian kids has been prepared by Italians and USA.

http://www.sondakika.com/haber-kosova-da-okullardaki-ders-haritalarinda-kurdistan-2561290/

I started to believe that CIA gave the exact same role to Albanians as they gave to the Kurds because similarities between them are so obvious. Both Kurds and Albanians waving US flags in the streets. Kurds have their PKK and Albanians have their U�K. They are getting educated with dreams of greater Albania and greater Kurdistan, respectively. Their books for children prepared by USA officials and it contains fictional stories, pictures and maps. There are giant US bases, both in Iraq and Kosovo and no one knows what are they doing in these places. Both Kosovo and Iraq are full of CIA agents.

This should be so easy for CIA officials. They just need to find poor community and pretend like helping them and let them consider USA as their saviors. Then indoctrinate their youth with fictional stories and dreams about their newborn country and let them do the job for you, then just sit and watch the mess.

[Niko777]

Thank you Onur, this is interesting.

[Risto the Great]

Onur, I seem to recall Turkey being very helpful to the ethnic Albanians back around the Kosovo crisis and the 2001 conflict in Macedonia. Do you think the sentiment may change in light of actions such as the treatment of the ethnic Turkish Kosovar schoolteacher?

[osiris]

The support western countries are providing to Albanians while ignoring the many human rights abuses and criminal activities of The Albanian leadership is yet another example of western hypocrisy. I call on the UMD to show some courage and point out to their friends in the US state dept the true nature of their allies in the Balkans

[Onur]

Onur, I seem to recall Turkey being very helpful to the ethnic Albanians back around the Kosovo crisis and the 2001 conflict in Macedonia. Do you think the sentiment may change in light of actions such as the treatment of the ethnic Turkish Kosovar schoolteacher?

I really don't know anything about Turkey`s involvement during 2001 conflict in Macedonia, if there was any. But for Kosovo crisis, i remember people feared that Serbs might do the same as they did in Bosnia earlier and Turkish people felt sympathy with them. Turkish government`s involvement was nowhere as high as Bosnian war tough. Local Kosovar Turks never involved in Albanian-Serbian war in there and Serbian soldiers didn't even come close to the Turkish populated towns, villages in Kosovo. Probably not to piss us off and don't give us a reason to involve in to the mess. And i remember that 1000s of Albanians seek refuge in to the Turkish populated villages and Albanians were living in their homes as guests and even in their barns cuz they were safe in these places. Now they curse us and protest local Kosovar Turks in return.

Turkish people knows that they tried to assimilate Turks in Kosovo and tried to do same in Macedonia but actually Albanians are smart. For example, Erdogan gone to Kosovo few months ago and they greeted him like he is supposedly an Ottoman sultan, not quite as a PM of Turkey. I saw that on tv, it was like a circus in Kosovo with Albanians in the streets!!! They smile to our face but they do exact reverse from our back as you can see from this thread. Also, whenever everything fails, they play the so-called "muslim brotherhood" card as a joker.

[Onur]

Ottoman Empire in Kosovo and Albanian history books

In the history books of Kosovo and Albania, full of nationalist building discourse, the Ottoman Empire, and in some cases Turkey, are considered an oppressor due to nearly five centuries of Ottoman rule. However, historians argue that this nationalist-based perception could have a long-term impact on relations with a resurgent Turkey in the region.

Olsi Jazexhi, who is doing his PhD on Albanian nationalism, tells SETimes the history books on the Ottoman Empire and Turkey reflect a prejudice that is influenced by so-called Albanian European nationalism, which had different stages of development, beginning during the Ottoman presence until Communist rule.

"All those stages show Europe as a destination of the Albanians, and Turkey as the opposite of it, and since 9/11 show Islam as part of this evil," says Jazexhi.

Describing the Ottoman period, a history book written for primary schools in Kosovo describes the influence of Islam on Kosovo. "Factors which had impact on the spread of Islam were: pressure on the people through land taxes, which should be paid only by Christians, abducting boys and taking them to Istanbul where they faced Islamisation and education in Islamic way, reprisals of the state organs on the population, etc."

In this context, one issue discussed among experts and historians is whether the Ottoman Empire was an occupying country in Albania and Kosovo.

Jazexhi argues that the Ottomans conquered lands that Albanian nationalist historians view as greater Albania, but mentions an important caveat. "The Ottomans were not Turks, but in most cases were Albanians. Albanian Muslims who constructed and administered in the Ottoman Empire and its European parts," he tells SETimes.

This stance is reflected in the view of Turks, who view Albanians as brothers and a loyal nation, and were part of the Ottoman elite that included over two dozen prime ministers of Albanian origin.

In a 2009 speech in Sarajevo, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said, "If there had not been an Ottoman tradition, Egyptians would not have seen any Albanian in their life," referring to the 19th century Albanian reformer Muhammad Ali, who ruled Egypt and established a dynasty.

However, historian Dhimiter Koci reflects the nationalist perspective, and questions the need for a revision of history. "In our history the Ottomans were conquering our Albanian areas, and this is a fact which cannot be changed," says Koci, arguing that "any change of history or review, whatever they call it, is a risk to our national identity, and this happened just in communist times."

What may seem as an academic discussion among historians, may, however, have repercussion for Turkish foreign policy's guiding principle of "strategic depth" as advocated by Davutoglu, using Turkey's soft power -- including common historical and cultural bonds -- to advance Turkey's increasing imprint on the region.

Columnist Ndue Ukaj, for example, has doubts about the "brotherly relations" between Kosovo and Turkey.

"Is it possible with those with whom we have fought for five centuries, those that have degenerated and deformed the nation, with those who have rendered us in the pool of ignorance and underdevelopment�today, when we intend to turn towards the civilized world, to have brotherly relations?" he writes in a column.

This negative view of the Ottomans could also reverberate on Turkey's perception of ethnic Albanians over the long-run, warns Jazexhi.

"At the moment, Turkey is under Ahmet Davutoglu's feverish policy, which seeks communion with the peoples of the Balkans and wants to begin the history from the beginning. But after a few decades I think the Turks will probably begin to change their attitude towards their Albanian brothers."

25/07/11

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setime.../25/feature-02

In this context, one issue discussed among experts and historians is whether the Ottoman Empire was an occupying country in Albania and Kosovo.

Which Albanian country we occupied? Can anyone prove me the existence of an Albanian state prior to 1380 AD??? There might be some Albanians living in these places in 14th century but so what? There was Vlachs, gypsies in there too. If there was no proper state, then no one can talk about an occupation.

Jazexhi argues that the Ottomans conquered lands that Albanian nationalist historians view as greater Albania, but mentions an important caveat. "The Ottomans were not Turks, but in most cases were Albanians. Albanian Muslims who constructed and administered in the Ottoman Empire and its European parts,"

Thats true. It`s because Albanians always considered as "loyal nation" in Ottoman era, Albanian authorities was ruling in Bosnia, Serbia along with the Bosnians, orthodox Albanians was ruling in Morea and they were fully controlling today`s Albania themselves. They were free to do whatever they want. There was no Turkish authorities in these places except few representatives of Istanbul palace. Albanians also gained full control of Macedonia after 1880s.

Also, many Albanians has been sent to some middle-eastern and African provinces as governors.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said, "If there had not been an Ottoman tradition, Egyptians would not have seen any Albanian in their life," referring to the 19th century Albanian reformer Muhammad Ali, who ruled Egypt and established a dynasty.

I don't like Ahmet Davutoglu and his thoughts but he is right about that. And that was the one and only opportunity in their lifetime and Egyptians will never see an Albanian again in the future.

"At the moment, Turkey is under Ahmet Davutoglu's feverish policy, which seeks communion with the peoples of the Balkans and wants to begin the history from the beginning. But after a few decades I think the Turks will probably begin to change their attitude towards their Albanian brothers."

Well, thats true. Davutoglu is pursuing his own policy which he already wrote books about it, long b4 he became Turkey`s FM. He is a visionary who has been found as "unrealistic fantasies" by many. Turkish people doesn't need Davutoglu to realize their communion with the peoples of Balkans. Turkish people was already aware of this but at the same time they abandoned and forgot this communion for very long time. After Davutoglu goes away, Turkish people might return to the stance of "totally ignoring Balkans" again, especially if Davutoglu`s initiatives fails in Balkans.

Besides that, only some deeply religious people here perceives Albanians as brotherly nation anymore. But rest of us has no such a stance.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Ottoman rule was far from perfect but which rule was perfect in medieval era? I also believe that Ottoman rule was better than most of European states at that time. At least we didn't burn people alive on crucifixes, just because of religious difference, while in western Europe, it was the exact opposite.

I know most of you guys will disagree with me about that but i would like to see one thing in the history books of Balkan countries. I certainly believe that if there would be no Turkish rule around here, catholics would surely kill all of the muslims(Albanians) and orthodox people since they had already declared that orthodoxy is heresy. You know, there was one and only punishment for heretics `till 16th century; burning alive on a cross! Catholics would surely do that since they already established their rule around here after crusades. They would surely destroy Byzantine Empire and orthodoxy, all together if Turks wouldn't get these lands as early as 14th century.

Hard to swallow for them but even Greek church should accept that cuz if there would be no Turks, they would surely face with the same fate as Bogomils, Gnostics etc.

Onur,your assumptions are totally groundless.I am not a friend of catholics and I don't forget the massacres and the pillaging of Constantinople by the crusadors in 1204 either,however Orthodoxy was not wiped out in Crete,the Ionian and the Aegean islands that were under Venetian or Genovese rule for many centuries.There are only few catholic Greeks in some Aegean islands today as result of the Genovese rule,that's all,most of them in Syros,hence the term "Fragosyriani"=the catholic girl from Syros,(catholics were labeled as "Franks") title of a famous rebetiko song composed by a legendary figure of rebetiki music,Markos Vamvakaris,a "Fragosyrianos" himself,if I am not wrong.

‪ΦΡΑΓΚΟΣΥΡΙΑΝΗ ΜΑΡΚΟΣ ΒΑΜΒΑΚΑΡΗΣ Ν ΜΑΡΑΓΚΟ�*ΟΥΛΟΣ‬‏ - YouTube

And even in Tinos,the so-called "Island of Orthodoxy" the majority of the inhabitants are in fact catholics.On the other hand,it's a matter of fact that 4-5 centuries of Ottoman rule is responsible for the backwardness throughout the Balkans.The most striking proof for this is that certain Greek regions that totally escaped Turkish conquest (Ionian islands) or avoided it for some centuries (Creta) and were under Venetian controll all this time,managed to thrive culturally (mainly in litterature and painting).Have you ever heard of the "Cretan renaissance" and the Cretan painting school?

http://www.google.com/search?q=creatna+rennaisance&btnG=%CE%91%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7+%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=el#hl=el&tbo=1&tbm=bks&sa=X&ei=8Xg6Tt-FNdCz8QPozuGMAw&ved=0CCgQBSgA&q=cretan+renaissance&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c373fb1054be1161&biw=792&bih=431

http://books.google.com/books?id=B81QOONACL0C&pg=PA1&dq=cretan+renaissance&hl=el&ei=E3g6TrrrJ4aq8APx4aWSAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=cretan%20renaissance&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tnf2Ac1MlTgC&pg=PA1&dq=cretan+renaissance&hl=el&ei=9Xg6TvWnMYyq8APb7fmKAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cretan%20renaissance&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_School

Meanwhile in Ottoman occupied mainland Greece,this is what some people were experiencing at the hands of the Turkish "Orthodox protectors":

Πόνησις Χριστοφόρου του Αγγέλου,Έλληνος του πολλών πληγών και μαστίγων γευσαμένου αδίκως παρά των Τούρκων δια την εις Χριστόν πίστιν=Work of Christophoros Angelos,a Hellene who suffered many stripes and torments by the Turks for his faith in Christ,Oxford,1617.

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/7db39afc4f429bbb701965db9967f5c4.jpg

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/015eae9d87619d48c019b54bb745002a.jpg

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/38213e5f056f7f9699e37c02441e48b8.jpg

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/944b69fb8014fee27260be08425e471e.jpg

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/e897c1bf2eb27457b5da93636ba84dd3.jpg

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/c7621dbf79d6aba0cd13886138879cf6.jpg

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/6fdb87b112cbea0fa756f44453d6dc3e.jpg

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/8d8142434886d7d743a589719c2c8272.jpg