The Macedonian Cause

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #31
    Macedonia has a Christian tradition that stretches back to biblical times, and the Macedonian people are the carriers of this tradition. Orthodox Christianity is ingrained in Macedonia, and is an integral part of the Macedonian people, language and culture.

    Or something similar that can fit in to the format the way the rest of it is written on page 1.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Bratot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 2855

      #32
      I don't agree on this, if we try to anime all Macedonians working for the cause including the islamised from Turkey, Gora, Albania or wherever they are we should't be putting exclusivity only to one religious view.
      The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        #33
        Ahh, this is why the cause can have splinters.
        The question is do we want to avoid the Christian character of the Macedonian people to not offend the other people, or do we drown the cause into complete irrelevance? A very difficult and real question.

        I think it is a numbers game. And if we look at Macedonians, we are talking about Orthodox Macedonians. And if we leave it out, we are leaving out a very significant aspect of how we perceive the Macedonian identity.
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #34
          I don't see it as exclusivity, but precedence, because Macedonian history is largely defined by its Christian and Orthodox heritage, so the others cannot be viewed in the same light, as an integral part of our identity.

          Macedonians who are not Orthodox Christians should understand and accept this, we are not the internal enemy, we are the internal majority, and we welcome all Macedonians, even those of whom are not Orthodox Christians. All of us are Macedonians equally, and all religions should be respected, but only one of our religions has an integral history to the identity of our people as a whole. Even Macedonians of the Islamic faith, Protestants, etc have ancestors that were largely Orthodox Christians prior.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Bratot
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2855

            #35
            I can't agree with you, I wont sign something like this and spread it as Macedonian cause.

            Macedonia is our religion, our faith. That's the meaning of a cause.

            If you look through the eyes of christianity you should abandon ancient Macedonian views.
            I'm for striving to integrate all Macedonians who are willing to work for the cause.

            If we want to be strong, as a nation, we shoudn't propagate religious views.

            Macedonian christian orthodoxy played big role in our history and it has it place in the cause by respecting the ethno-cultural characteristics of all Macedonians and in the absolute recognizing and acceptance of 6) the Macedonian Orthodox Church, part.

            We could mention the religious beliefs as non limiting factor and calling up to national homogenization, not religious one.
            Last edited by Bratot; 05-21-2009, 04:31 AM.
            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

            Comment

            • makedonin
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1668

              #36
              Religious mindset should be omited in the cause.
              There are many Orthodox born Macedonian's who don't identify with Orthodoxy.

              We should not be like the Greeks, basing our identity on Religion.

              Give god what belongs to him, and Macedonia what belongs to it. Clear cut is required.

              Macedonia may have played a big role in spreading Christian faith, but Christianity did not spread Macedonia, if I may put it in figurative way.

              Thus, Christianity is not Macedonia, and Macedonia is not Christianity, even though they were close associated to each other.
              To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                #37
                Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                Macedonian christian orthodoxy played big role in our history and it has it place in the cause by respecting the ethno-cultural characteristics of all Macedonians and in the absolute recognizing and acceptance of 6) the Macedonian Orthodox Church, part.
                Actually, I just re-read "the cause" and think point 6) is well good enough on this front.

                Notwithstanding this, I make no mistake about the Macedonian orthodox christian defining identity. If we were following merely the Byzantine Orthodox tradition looking solely at Constantinople for the last 1000 years ... we would not be Macedonians today my friends. If it offends you to hear this, think about it a little more.
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • makedonin
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1668

                  #38
                  RtG, I think that the Religion may have played a roll of preservation of Identity, but it certainly did more damage.

                  Think about the Patriarchist or Exarchat affiliated Macedonian's, did they declared that they were Macedonian's? Were they seen as such ?

                  The most important question to answer is: what role does the Religion plays today in defining a Identity?

                  The Ottoman mind set does not apply to me. I don't have to be Christian to be Macedonian, or must I ? If I must, than we have a problem

                  If one has to be Christian to be a Macedonian, than I find his Macedonian identity weak.

                  No offence though.
                  To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                  Comment

                  • Coolski
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 747

                    #39
                    I'm pretty sure that non-orthodox Macedonians have also inherited much of their macedonian-ness from orthodox christianity, mainly because it is likely that their ancestors were orthodox at one stage. I'm mainly talking about torbeši here. In this case i would add to SoM's phrase in the following way.

                    Macedonia has a deep Christian tradition that stretches back to biblical times, and the Macedonian people are the carriers of this tradition. Orthodox Christianity is ingrained in Macedonia, and is an integral part of the Macedonian people, language and culture, and while Orthodox Christian Macedonians have inherited these elements spiritually, the cultural and historical riches of this culture exists in Macedonians of all faiths.
                    - Секој чоек и нација има можност да успеат колку шо си дозволуваат. Нема изговор.
                    - Every human and nation has the ability to be as great or as weak as they allow themselves to be. No excuses.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      #40
                      Nice Coolski.

                      Originally posted by Bratot
                      If you look through the eyes of christianity you should abandon ancient Macedonian views.
                      Originally posted by Makedonin
                      We should not be like the Greeks, basing our identity on Religion.
                      Gents, don't interpret my words in an extreme, I am not talking about basing our identity on religion, but about acknowledging the fact that Orthodoxy is one of the most significant cultural elements for Macedonia and it is something that far outweighs the rest of the religions by years, history, influence, etc in Macedonia and her people.

                      Being Macedonian comes first and foremost, being non-Orthodox does not exclude one from being Macedonian, but being Orthodox links you to the common religion and culture that has contributed by overwhelming majority to what we know as Macedonian. I am not an overly religious person, but I am thinking of this in realistic terms. If I was a Torbesh, and I understood the reality of Macedonian history and its largely Orthodox heritage, and if being Macedonian meant that much to me, I would acknowledge the facts and be happy with my religion being respected, as it is in Macedonia.

                      I know exactly where you guys are coming from with your opinions, and I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if we need to get to the definitives here and be crystal about the cause and the truth, then I would think that the Orthodox heritage of Macedonia must be made mention of, and if necessary, along with the MOC's tolerance for all faiths.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #41
                        Please let us not get the "cause" confused with being "nice".
                        The cause is what Macedonian people have died for.
                        Is religious tolerance really part of the cause?
                        I hope not. Because then it really has zero application in the Republic and is of limited inspiration to Macedonians elsewhere as well.

                        Nobody commented on my observation that Islam does not respect nations. If I respect Islam, then I respect a citizens right to ignore the nation he lives in. If this is in Macedonia, then we have a problem.

                        The cause does not need to be "nice" for everybody. The cause needs to be utterly inspirational to the people I want to fight with.

                        If we follow some of the suggestions here, we will have organisations committed to the cause who are committed to promoting Islam initiatives in Macedonia in the interest of being nice. Whilst it does make me want to sing Cat Stevens tunes in my head, I urge you to consider what on Earth is hoped to be achieved with defining the Macedonian cause.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Bratot
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2855

                          #42
                          RTG you were so over tolerant when it came to question about the Grkomani for which you said you would not give up on them,even though they don't feel Macedonians as we do and now you are holding some pretty much biased position about the religion.

                          Think lil bit how Albanians work over their cause by being muslims,orthodox and catholics.


                          I suggest you to learn something about the Miyaks, Gorans, Torbeshi history in order to understand them better.

                          There are 60.000 islamised Macedonians who were expeled from Macedonia after 1913 and now living in Turkiye.

                          Another part of few thousands islamised Macedonians got assimilated by Albanians because we - the orthodox Macedonians did not accepted and isolated them.

                          After all even Goce Delcev wasn't Orthodox Christian but he fought for our cause and always gonna stand as one of the greatest Macedonians in History.

                          I have plenty of friends who are different conffession and I have no single doubt about their loyalty to the cause.

                          We should not be making discriminating manifesto and I will never let any Macedonian to feel underestimated because of the religion.

                          And I won't make compromise about this.
                          The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                          Comment

                          • makedonin
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1668

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            but being Orthodox links you to the common religion and culture that has contributed by overwhelming majority to what we know as Macedonian.

                            SoM, It might be so as you say, but I being born Orthodox fail to see this.

                            It might be so, cause Religion did not play much in my early life. Apart of being baptised in Church, eating Eggs on Easter and siting at Home at Bozhik, I can't say that my Identity as Macedonian has much impact from Orthodoxy. This might have been the case for those Macedonians who lived during the Ottoman period, but today. If we need some line in the document, where we show our pride of our Orthodox faith, its fine with me, but we should not forget that the same Orthodox faith bound on Nationalism have done the most damage to our Macedonian cause and identity (i.e. Partirarchist v.s. Exarchists) than anything else.

                            I think that many see this that way. At least those I know feel so.

                            So I spoke on my and theirs behalf.
                            Last edited by makedonin; 05-21-2009, 12:40 PM.
                            To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                            Comment

                            • makedonin
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1668

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                              Nobody commented on my observation that Islam does not respect nations. If I respect Islam, then I respect a citizens right to ignore the nation he lives in. If this is in Macedonia, then we have a problem.
                              Risto, I feel what you say. But Orthodoxy was no better. If the Orthodoxy was good, and had no problem with Nationality, than we would not have problems with the National Orthodox Churches of the others i.e. Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Russians. Those Churches does not recognize our Church, thus they don't recognize our Nationality.

                              I ain't for excluding of Religion, but it should be up to the Individuals. It is individual matter, not community or national matter.

                              That is why I have problem with Religion being part of the Macedonian cause.
                              Last edited by makedonin; 05-21-2009, 12:45 PM.
                              To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                              Comment

                              • makedonin
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1668

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Bratot View Post

                                Think lil bit how Albanians work over their cause by being muslims,orthodox and catholics.
                                Bravo Bratot, I was about to say the same, and I completely agree with you.

                                I support your opinion.

                                Same thing is with the Germans. There are Protestans, Catholics and what not, but they don't separate by the Religious line, rather hang together and work for their cause.

                                I guess, we share the Irish fate: split country, split by religion.

                                sad
                                Last edited by makedonin; 05-21-2009, 12:40 PM.
                                To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                                Comment

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