Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian History

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-22-2010, 07:38 PM   #11
aleksandrov
Member
 
aleksandrov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 558
aleksandrov is on a distinguished road
Default

Delchev defines what he means by "moral" revolution in the quote itself as a "revolution of the mind, heart and soul [which might also be translated as spirit]". He is referring to both intellect and character.
__________________
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn
aleksandrov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 03:38 AM   #12
Pavel
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 155
Pavel is on a distinguished road
Default

delchev often talked about the importance of the revolution (first the moral and then the physical practical) occurring inside Macedonia, among the people who actually live inside macedonia. this was in the context of trying to stop the interference of foreign governments and also of diaspora groups located in sofia, belgrade and athens. one of the premises was in other words that the you can't make a revolution from outside. true victory could only be attained by living among the people in macedonia because that would demonstrate that you are serious by the fact that you are prepared to share their difficulties and their plight etc.

some historians have pointed out how imro lost credibility in the eyes of the people after the ilinden uprising because many of imro's leaders did not remain in macedonia to face the horrific aftermath, but instead ran off to comfort in bulgaria etc.

as someone who lives in the diaspora among many others from the diaspora on this forum, i often find myself wondering whether or not we are sometimes too harsh on those in macedonia from our comparatively comfortable homes here in the "west".

how many of us who are urging macedonians in macedonia to be tougher and more vigilant and i have even seen some people here say things like for them to be prepared to fight a war; would be willing to live in macedonia so that they could show that they are prepared to live in their conditions and take whatever comes? how many of us here were willing to go fight 10 years ago?

how many of us are willing to take up delchev's advice on the internal (vnatreshna) revolution? is his point valid today?

Last edited by Pavel; 05-23-2010 at 06:32 AM.
Pavel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 04:24 AM   #13
Risto the Great
Senior Member
 
Risto the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Colony of Australia
Posts: 14,231
Risto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Pavle, his point is equally valid today as it was 100 years ago.
Nobody is asking Macedonian inside Macedonia to go to war. Pleading and encouraging them to embrace a revolution in mindset is all that is necessary. Surely we have enough examples now to make the case clear. All the EU member states are still defined by their previous identities, the small time lazy Greeks, the rich Germans etc. Nothing has changed other than the diminished sovereignty for all of the member countries. Why can't Macedonians assess all options with new eyes?

Only as recently as last week was the 2001 conflict openly described as "war" by international courts. I remember back in 2001. It was not "sold" as a war back then. It was a few naughty ethnic Albanians that needed to be sorted out. It is a difficult example to work with.
__________________
Risto the Great
Ask me what you can do for your country.
Risto the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 04:44 AM   #14
Pavel
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 155
Pavel is on a distinguished road
Default

"Why can't Macedonians assess all options with new eyes?" Risto, that is a very good question, I don't know the answer. however, delchev's point was that if somebody wants to contribute to the moral revolution of macedonians, so that they begin looking at options with new eyes, then they need to go and do it inside macedonia. it is from there that they will be taken seriously; it is by living in macedonia that they will truly understand the mindset of the average macedonian and be in a real position to influence it on a day to day basis. this was delchev's point and if it is valid today, then many of us who are concerned, might need to think about relocating....maybe....

i have to confess that i am not prepared to do that, but then i am more measured in my criticism of the macedonians in macedonia than others here. i save my real fire for the countries and institutions that are trying to destroy macedonia...grease, vulgaria, eu, un, usa etc. this does not mean that we shouldn't criticise poor decisions made by macedonians too; but like i said sometimes the ferocity of it makes me wonder about what delchev said. you know, if you really want to make a difference over there, then you need to be there....

i know Risto that you have not said anything about being ready to fight a war, but others here have...are they prepared to take delchev's advice?

Last edited by Pavel; 05-23-2010 at 07:39 AM.
Pavel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 04:47 AM   #15
aleksandrov
Member
 
aleksandrov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 558
aleksandrov is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel View Post
delchev often talked about the importance of the revolution (first the moral and then the physical practical) occurring inside Macedonia, among the people who actually live inside macedonia. this was in the context of trying to stop the interference of foreign governments and also of diaspora groups located in sofia, belgrade and athens. one of the premises was in other words that the you can't make a revolution from outside. true victory could only be attained by living among the people in macedonia because that would demonstrate that you are serious by the fact that you are prepared to share their difficulties and their plight etc.

some historians have pointed out how imro lost credibility in the eyes of the people after the ilinden uprising because many of imro's leaders did not remain in macedonia to face the horrific aftermath, but instead ran off to comfort in bulgaria etc.

as someone who lives in the diaspora among many others from the diaspora on this forum, i often find myself wondering whether or not we are sometimes too harsh on those in macedonia from our comparatively comfortable homes here in the "west".

how many of us who are urging macedonians in macedonia to be tougher and more vigilant and i have even seen some people here say things like for them to be prepared to fight a war; would be willing to live in macedonia so that they could show that they are prepared to live in their conditions and take whatever comes? how many of us here were willing to go fight 10 years ago?

how many of us are willing to take up delchev's advice on the internal (vnatreshna) revolution? is is his point valid today?
The focus on the INTERNAL revolution was a based on his belief that without self-reliance people will just swap one slavery for another. He makes this more clear in other quotes that I will post later, as well as one that I have already posted on page one of this thread:

"Grizhete se da ja iskorenite taa slabost [chekanata pomosh odnadvor] i od najzabludeniot strashlivec, pa namesto toa, neka se rodi nepobedlivata sila na samodejnosta i reshitelnosta i togash veruvajte, sekoj eden kje se bori dokraj so najgolema zhestokost...." Goce Delchev, 17 Oktomvri 1895

"Take care to root out that weakness [the expectation of foreign help] even from the most deluded coward, and instead of that, let there be born the unbeatable power of self-reliance and decisiveness, and then, rest assured, everyone will fight to the end most vehemently..."

He held and preached the same convictions when he was himself working for the cause from the Diaspora i.e. from Bulgaria.

I don't see much criticism of Macedonians in Macedonia who are trying to be self-reliant. Most criticisms are directed at those who continue to live as moral slaves, on the false promises and false hopes of foreign protection, assistance and blessings.
__________________
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

Last edited by aleksandrov; 05-23-2010 at 04:56 AM.
aleksandrov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 06:21 AM   #16
Pavel
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 155
Pavel is on a distinguished road
Default

"The focus on the INTERNAL revolution was a based on his belief that without self-reliance people will just swap one slavery for another."

"He held and preached the same convictions when he was himself working for the cause from the Diaspora i.e. from Bulgaria."

true, but this was not all he meant by internal. he also meant that you had to be "internal" (vnatre) in order to make a difference, because that's where the problem was and also because you had to be 'inside' to truly understand the conditions, so that then you would have a better idea of what to do. he often went to sofia precisely to criticise those diaspora groups and people who weren't "internal", part of the internal movement, because as such they would often criticise and make suggestions that were not informed, exactly because they didn't work and agitate "internally".

"i can see that all of you do not know the conditions in macedonia and that's why you should tell everyone, tell them all, not to interfere and leave the internal organisation to organise, to lead, to decide. we thought that from you, from the committee (in sofia) and the emigrants that we would receive brotherly aid. but understand, we are not looking for patrons, and even less, masters." feb 1896 delchev in a letter to general nikolaev.

we don't want, in other words, masters from outside, especially emigres in the diaspora, to tell us inside what to do.

i suppose one way of using this today would be for us in the diaspora to measure our comments towards macedonians in macedonia a little better than we sometimes do. keep up the constructive criticism, though perhaps place it in language that is more measured. that way people over there in macedonia are more likely to listen ( whether they are "moral slaves" or not and actually people everywhere are more likely to listen).

though the question still remains, do more of us need to go 'internal' to really understand and make a difference? delchev would probably say yes if he were alive....

Last edited by Pavel; 05-23-2010 at 07:39 AM.
Pavel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 07:49 AM   #17
aleksandrov
Member
 
aleksandrov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 558
aleksandrov is on a distinguished road
Default

Pavel,

You seem to be confusing support for Macedonians within Macedonia who might want to lead a revolution with refraining from criticism of those who choose to remain slaves to foreign hegemony. Like I posted earlier:

"I don't see much criticism of Macedonians in Macedonia who are trying to be self-reliant. Most criticisms are directed at those who continue to live as moral slaves, on the false promises and false hopes of foreign protection, assistance and blessings."

And Delchev didn't go to Sofia specifically to criticize Diaspora groups. He studied in Bulgaria and used it as a base for his revolutionary activity for a while. I believe he was the Internal Revolutionary Organisation's representative in Sofia for some time. He also sought to organize assistance from the Macedonian Diaspora there, as can be gathered from the quote you've posted.
__________________
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

Last edited by aleksandrov; 05-23-2010 at 07:54 AM.
aleksandrov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 07:59 AM   #18
julie
Senior Member
 
julie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: makedonska colonia
Posts: 3,869
julie is on a distinguished road
Default

Moralnata revolucija – revolucijata vo umot, srceto i dushata na eden ropski narod, e najgolemata zadacha." Goce Delchev vo okruzhno pismo od 8-14 Mart 1901. (Hristo Andonov Poljanski, Goce Delchev - Kon osumdesetgodishninata od zaginuvanjeto na Goce Delchev, Istarska Naklada, Pula 1985, p. 206)

"The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________

So how do we empower our people in RoM , this is something that Gotse Delchev strove for, how do we get rid of the enslaved mindset they are in, accepting mediocroty and trade offs when he clearly was against that!
julie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 08:10 AM   #19
Pavel
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 155
Pavel is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandrov View Post
Pavel,

You seem to be confusing support for Macedonians within Macedonia who might want to lead a revolution with refraining from criticism of those who choose to remain slaves to foreign hegemony. Like I posted earlier:

"I don't see much criticism of Macedonians in Macedonia who are trying to be self-reliant. Most criticisms are directed at those who continue to live as moral slaves, on the false promises and false hopes of foreign protection, assistance and blessings."

And Delchev didn't go to Sofia specifically to criticize Diaspora groups. He studied in Bulgaria and used it as a base for his revolutionary activity for a while. I believe he was the Internal Revolutionary Organisation's representative in Sofia for some time. He also sought to organize assistance from the Macedonian Diaspora there, as can be gathered from the quote you've posted.
i am not confusing anything. i did not say anything about "refraining" from criticism i said : "keep up the constructive criticism, though perhaps place it in language that is more measured. that way people over there in macedonia are more likely to listen ( whether they are "moral slaves" or not and actually people everywhere are more likely to listen)."

also i said about delchev that "he often went to sofia precisely to criticise those diaspora groups and people who weren't "internal", part of the internal movement, because as such they would often criticise and make suggestions that were not informed, exactly because they didn't work and agitate "internally"."

he did go there on occasions to participate in such debates, the memoirs of the imro revolutionaries make that absolutely clear. i did not claim that was his only reason for going there. this was not his only reason; yes he also often went there to organise financial support and shipments of arms.

"i can see that all of you do not know the conditions in macedonia and that's why you should tell everyone, tell them all, not to interfere and leave the internal organisation to organise, to lead, to decide. we thought that from you, from the committee (in sofia) and the emigrants that we would receive brotherly aid. but understand, we are not looking for patrons, and even less, masters." feb 1896 delchev in a letter to general nikolaev.

delchev on the importance of working internally.

though the question still remains, do more of us need to go 'internal' to really understand and make a difference? delchev would probably say yes if he were alive...
Pavel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 09:53 AM   #20
blackcactus
Member
 
blackcactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 242
blackcactus is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel View Post
i am not confusing anything. i did not say anything about "refraining" from criticism i said : "keep up the constructive criticism, though perhaps place it in language that is more measured. that way people over there in macedonia are more likely to listen ( whether they are "moral slaves" or not and actually people everywhere are more likely to listen)."

also i said about delchev that "he often went to sofia precisely to criticise those diaspora groups and people who weren't "internal", part of the internal movement, because as such they would often criticise and make suggestions that were not informed, exactly because they didn't work and agitate "internally"."

he did go there on occasions to participate in such debates, the memoirs of the imro revolutionaries make that absolutely clear. i did not claim that was his only reason for going there. this was not his only reason; yes he also often went there to organise financial support and shipments of arms.

"i can see that all of you do not know the conditions in macedonia and that's why you should tell everyone, tell them all, not to interfere and leave the internal organisation to organise, to lead, to decide. we thought that from you, from the committee (in sofia) and the emigrants that we would receive brotherly aid. but understand, we are not looking for patrons, and even less, masters." feb 1896 delchev in a letter to general nikolaev.

delchev on the importance of working internally.

though the question still remains, do more of us need to go 'internal' to really understand and make a difference? delchev would probably say yes if he were alive...
Pavel your point makes perfect sense

It would be potent for the leaders of our struggle to actually live in Macedonia, to really influence change, to understand the people better

As for 'External' Macedonians, I feel our language does need to be more measured as not to alienate 'Internal' Macedonians to the struggle, or we may end up eroding any unity we think we have to our own detriment

IMO Delchev's wisdom is still relevant today
__________________
The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

“Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python
blackcactus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump