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  • makedonin
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1668

    #31
    Originally posted by toothpaste View Post
    [B]


    (Athenian)-What is "sphyraina" then?
    (Macedonian)-It is what you,Attics call "kestra".
    If those Atenians and "Greek" Macedonians could comunicate speaks nothing of the Language of the Macedonians, since most of the Macedonians spoke Attik or Koine. What kind of a prove is that? none.

    second:

    In the original of which only few sentences are preserved, there is nothing said about Athenian and Macedonian but rather:

    Accordingly, Strattis, in his Macedonians, when
    some Athenian asks the question, as being ignorant of the
    name, and saying,
    But what is the sphurvena ?
    The other replies,
    You, 0 Athenians, do call it the cestra.

    And Antiphanes, in his Euthydicus, says-
    A. The sphursena is a common fish.
    B. You should say cestra, in strict Attic Greek.


    Athenaeus of Naucratis / The deipnosophists, or, Banquet of the learned of Athenĉus volume I
    Book VII, pp. 433-521 ff.

    as you see it is not clear who is talking to this athenian, it is the others

    It is very speculative to say that some Macedonians are talking to the guy.


    And as you see, sphursena is common fish, no real Macedonian word.


    so what remained in modern greek for the fish is no Macedonian word, but common greek word for fish.
    Last edited by makedonin; 09-13-2008, 09:41 AM.
    To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

    Comment

    • makedonin
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1668

      #32
      Back to Hesychius

      please be kind and tell me which Greek words are this one from the Kelts:

      Last edited by makedonin; 09-13-2008, 09:12 AM.
      To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

      Comment

      • toothpaste
        Banned
        • Sep 2008
        • 149

        #33
        Originally posted by makedonin View Post
        If those Atenians and "Greek" Macedonians could comunicate speaks nothing of the Language of the Macedonians, since most of the Macedonians spoke Attik. What kind of a prove is that? none.

        second:

        In the original of which only few sentences are reserved, there is nothing said about Athenian and Macedonian but rather:



        as you see it is not clear who is talking to this athenian, it is the others

        It is very speculative to say that some Macedonians are talking to the guy.


        And as you see, sphursena is common fish, no real Macedonian word.


        so what remained in modern greek for the fish is no Macedonian word, but common greek word for fish.
        The Comedy is called MAKEDONES (=MACEDONIANS) ,ws written by an Athenian,and a guy is talking with an Athenian...

        Um he is probably a Martian.

        Also ..what is "sphursena" and "sphurvena"?

        In the text is only ΣΦΥΡΑΙΝΑ (σφύραινα ,sphyraina)

        Comment

        • makedonin
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1668

          #34
          Originally posted by toothpaste View Post
          The Comedy is called MAKEDONES (=MACEDONIANS) ,ws written by an Athenian,and a guy is talking with an Athenian...

          Um he is probably a Martian.

          Also ..what is "sphursena" and "sphurvena"?

          In the text is only ΣΦΥΡΑΙΝΑ (σφύραινα ,sphyraina)
          And what if it is called Macedonians????

          This Stratis was rediculing people making comedy.

          Still there is no prove that this athenian was talking to Macedonians!!!

          For all we know he could have talking to his public.

          It is all speculation.

          it is the others, thats all we know.

          sphursena is the transcription used by the translator of the Athenaeus of Naucratis for the word ΣΦΥΡΑΙΝΑ.

          and in the next line Athenaeus of Naucratis tells us that

          And Antiphanes, in his Euthydicus, says-
          A. The sphursena is a common fish.
          B. You should say cestra, in strict Attic Greek.
          So no Macedonian word, but rather common (Greek) word for fish.
          Last edited by makedonin; 09-13-2008, 10:12 AM.
          To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

          Comment

          • toothpaste
            Banned
            • Sep 2008
            • 149

            #35
            So....according to the parts you presented we have:

            1.
            "I know too, of many Attic writers who use idioms of the Macedonians as a result of intercourse with them.”( Athenaeus .. Deipnosophistae, III. 121-122)

            2.
            And Antiphanes, in his Euthydicus, says-
            A. The sphursena is a common fish.
            B. You should say cestra, in strict Attic Greek.


            Athenaeus of Naucratis / The deipnosophists, or, Banquet of the learned of Athenĉus volume I
            Book VII, pp. 433-521 ff.

            3.
            ...
            and in MAKEDONES of Strattis,we have an Athenian speaking with "someone"..

            -What is a Sphyraina? (sphursena or any weird transl!)
            -It is what you Attics (Athenians) call kestra (or cestra).


            1 and 2 ..are from the same author ...now the conclusion is all yours..

            In Atheneus..someone "knows attic writers who use Macedonian idioms"...and in the same work someone corrects the word Sphyraina(macedonian or not!?) ...with the proper attic,Kestra.

            3, of Makedones comedy..confirms the above.

            Obvious.
            Or again you can't see it?
            Last edited by toothpaste; 09-13-2008, 10:34 AM.

            Comment

            • Delodephius
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 736

              #36
              You know, here where I live every village has it's own name for tomato. We say jabĺčko, our neighbours say rajčjak, paradajka or even patlidžán. Only jabĺčko and rajčjak are Slovak words, paradajka is a foreign word but it's the correct one. Same thing is about fish. However, the issue you are arguing above, I don't see where it is stated that Macedonians' native language is a Greek dialect.
              अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
              उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
              This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
              But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

              Comment

              • makedonin
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1668

                #37
                Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                I don't see where it is stated that Macedonians' native language is a Greek dialect.

                you have to be greek to see that.
                Last edited by makedonin; 09-13-2008, 11:45 AM.
                To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                Comment

                • makedonin
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1668

                  #38
                  Originally posted by toothpaste View Post

                  In Atheneus..someone "knows attic writers who use Macedonian idioms"...and in the same work someone corrects the word Sphyraina(macedonian or not!?) ...with the proper attic,Kestra.

                  3, of Makedones comedy..confirms the above.

                  Obvious.
                  Or again you can't see it?
                  Nothing is obvious, you connect Atheneus cites from page 121 and 508 as one, with out bothering to see that on Page 508 Atheneus is discussing the Sphyraina fish in length:

                  Then there is the sphurcena, or hammer-fish; and
                  these fish, Icesius says, are more nutritious than the congers,
                  but very unpleasant and unpalatable to the taste; and, as to
                  their juicy qualities, they- are tolerable. But Dorion says-
                  "The sphurvena, which they call the cestra." And Epicharmus, in his Muses, having named the cestra, does not after that mention the sphurwena, thinking them the same fish-
                  The chalcides, the sea-dog, and the cestra,
                  And perch with variegated back.
                  And Sophron, in his Male Farces, says-" The cestrse, which
                  eat the botis." But Speusippus, in the second book of his
                  treatise on Things which resemble one another, puts down the
                  cestra, the needle-fish, and the sea-lizard as very nearly like
                  one another. And the Attic writers in general call the
                  sphurcona the cestra,
                  and do not so often use the name of
                  sphurtena. Accordingly, Strattis, in his Macedonians, when
                  some Athenian asks the question, as being ignorant of the
                  name, and saying,
                  But what is the sphurvena ?
                  The other replies,
                  You, 0 Athenians, do call it the cestra.

                  And Antiphanes, in his Euthydicus, says-
                  A. The sphursena is a common fish.
                  B. You should say cestra, in strict Attic Greek.
                  And Nicophon, in his Pandora, says-
                  The cestra and the pike.
                  No one ever said that the in sphurvena is Macedonian Idiom.

                  The Macedonian Idiom is mentioned by Atheneus on 121 Page,

                  The Stratis Comedy is mentioned in the same autho on page 508 no connection in between.

                  Is that obvious to you????


                  blindess is greek bliss. I know that greek take pride in inventing mathematics, but even when you try to count 1+2 you always get 5.

                  here is one more for you to count:


                  " . . . Macedonatus, homines linguae suae per interpretem audire,"
                  ". . . born a Macedonian, to hear the men of his language through an interpreter,"


                  Curtius(2) Hist. Alex. Magni Maced., IV, I11.4.:
                  i.e., according to this passage, Philotas had need of translators in order to understand the mother tongue.

                  By the way, Philotas was fluent in Koine and Attic perhaps, a Greek.

                  If Macedonian was Greek than Macedonians would have no problem understanding Philotas speaking Koine to them
                  Last edited by makedonin; 09-13-2008, 11:45 AM.
                  To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                  Comment

                  • toothpaste
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 149

                    #39
                    No ..no connection at all!

                    YouTube - Deep Purple - when a blind man Cries Video


                    ............

                    Comment

                    • makedonin
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1668

                      #40
                      stay well,


                      " . . . Macedonatus, homines linguae suae per interpretem audire,"
                      ". . . born a Macedonian, to hear the men of his language through an interpreter,"


                      Curtius(2) Hist. Alex. Magni Maced., IV, I11.4.:
                      To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                      Comment

                      • toothpaste
                        Banned
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 149

                        #41
                        Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                        By the way, Philotas was fluent in Koine and Attic perhaps, a Greek.

                        If Macedonian was Greek than Macedonians would have no problem understanding Philotas speaking Koine to them
                        I bet ,next step is to say they were speaking a slavic language..isn't?

                        Comment

                        • makedonin
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1668

                          #42
                          Originally posted by toothpaste View Post
                          I bet ,next step is to say they were speaking a slavic language..isn't?

                          you bet you lose. I never say Slavic language

                          they spoke their Macedonian language, in extend posiblly related to modern Macedonian.
                          Last edited by makedonin; 09-13-2008, 12:08 PM.
                          To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                          Comment

                          • toothpaste
                            Banned
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 149

                            #43
                            Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                            you bet you lose. I never say Slavic language

                            they spoke their Macedonian language, in extend posiblly related to modern Macedonian.
                            You must have some huge evidence hiddden to support that..i m sure abt that.

                            And..modern macedonia ISN'T a Slavic language?

                            Comment

                            • makedonin
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1668

                              #44
                              Originally posted by toothpaste View Post
                              You must have some huge evidence hiddden to support that..i m sure abt that.

                              And..modern macedonia ISN'T a Slavic language?
                              all in time dude.

                              as for the modern Macedonian, for me it is multy layered language, has ancient layer as well many other influences and layers. no pure slavic no pure paelo balkanic no pure medevial.

                              sorry to say, but we don't have pure language which was spoken 2500 years ago, rather changed and evolved with time.


                              And you keep avoiding my question about Hesychius and his words of KELTI, so may be you will give it ashot with the Greekness of the Egyptian words written by Hesychius:

                              Last edited by makedonin; 09-13-2008, 12:29 PM.
                              To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                              Comment

                              • toothpaste
                                Banned
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 149

                                #45
                                Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                                sorry to say, but we don't have pure language which was spoken 2500 years ago, rather changed and evolved with time.
                                Is there a single linguist which not categorize modern Macedonian as a Slavic language??

                                Also..do you have any idea about the Greek language or you repeat what were you told?

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