Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Gocka
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 2306

    Of course you would want and expect 99% of ethnic Macedonians to be against this but that's unrealistic. I don't know if I've ever seen a social/political issue anywhere in the world that had 99% consensus, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue at all. The simple fact that SDS came to power and that this has gotten this far is proof enough that at least some portion of Macedonians are for it, how many remains to be seen but honestly if only 25% of ethnic Macedonians voted for it, I'd be proud. I would have thought much worse.

    Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
    But thats the thing, only 1% of ethnic macedonians should vote for the name change (the politicians) the rest should vote no to change the name. Its not a hard mathematical equation for the people in macedonia

    I get 25% of the shiptar population will vote yes, but macedonians are still the majority.

    I guess all will be revealed soon, pretty much the last roll of the dice for macedonia

    The surveys are garbage but regardless we can't be naive. This is why the Albanians were always such a dangerous factor for Macedonia. Up until now they have always focused on their own interests, but for once there is an issue that their interests overlap those of at least a portion of Macedonians. For non Macedonians this is an easy choice, and at 25 to 35% of the country (counting other minorities and torbeshi) You are already in a deep hole. With enough manipulation they can get a victory even if only 10% of Macedonians vote for it. Don't forget Macedonia has 1.8 million voters, even though its debatable if the country even has 1.5 million people in it.

    Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
    I agree that you can't trust that survey...I doubt that there would even be a scientific approach to any poll taken in Macedonia...everything seems to be a fabrication to suit whoever is in power.
    Macedonia is a totally corrupt country, nothing is done according to transparency, rules, laws or values...

    Comment

    • Pelagonija
      Member
      • Mar 2017
      • 533

      Official voting register released..

      1.805.707 гласачи се запишани во Избирачкиот спсок кој од денеска е ставен на увид на јавноста. И...


      903 000 is the magic number required for the vote to succeed.

      I’d like to think, Full boycott will void the referendum. Partial boycott will be a disaster.

      Can’t believe how retarded they are, we’ve had the same amount voters for the last 20 years, to add to this SDS were screaming blue murder when in opposition regarding the voter list..

      I would not put the total amount of people living in fyrom more that 1.7 to 1.8 Million.. this is statistically impossible but may work in our favour.

      Comment

      • Tomche Makedonche
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2011
        • 1123

        Looks like some Greeks are pushing for a referendum as well

        https://euobserver.com/tickers/142554

        Macedonia name deal threatens Greek government

        Greek defence minister Panos Kammenos threatened on Wednesday to pull his nationalist Independent Greeks (ANEL) party from the government if a name deal with the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) is put to a vote in the parliament, rather than a referendum. "I will not allow this deal to go through," he told the Greek internet radio. Greek MPs are set to vote on the deal in September.
        “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

        Comment

        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          URL:


          Анкетата на Институтот за политички истражувања од Скопје (ИПИС) покажува дека 43,2 отсто од граѓаните би гласале „за“ на претстојниот референдум за името, а 22 отсто „против“. Според анкетата спроведена помеѓу 6-ти и 10-ти август, 22 отсто од ...


          Анкета на ИПИС: „За“ на референдумот за името ќе гласат 32,4% Македонци, а 80,9% Албанци

          Comment

          • Gocka
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 2306

            Exactly in line with my predictions. That brings them right near the 50% threshold. Thrown in the fact that we will have a partial boycott and they win clean and clear. They may not even have to manipulate the results. This is a disaster.

            Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
            URL:


            Анкетата на Институтот за политички истражувања од Скопје (ИПИС) покажува дека 43,2 отсто од граѓаните би гласале „за“ на претстојниот референдум за името, а 22 отсто „против“. Според анкетата спроведена помеѓу 6-ти и 10-ти август, 22 отсто од ...


            Анкета на ИПИС: „За“ на референдумот за името ќе гласат 32,4% Македонци, а 80,9% Албанци

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              And don't discount voter intimidation and the buying of votes on the part of Zaev's regime. This will probably be employed to ensure that they are over the 50% threshold.

              Zaev will shoot for a 53% turnout. Enough to account for bojkotiram and regular apathetic voters, and enough to show that they can't be accused of fudging the numbers.

              Comment

              • Gocka
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 2306

                As we discussed earlier its probably not necessary. With Albanians and other minorities, the hardcore SDS followers, and the silent 10% to 20% of others who are too ashamed to publicly admit their support, they have enough votes to make this work. Add in a partial boycott and we will be caught with our pants down trying to explain how we got a 55% turnout and a 75% yes result.

                Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                And don't discount voter intimidation and the buying of votes on the part of Zaev's regime. This will probably be employed to ensure that they are over the 50% threshold.

                Zaev will shoot for a 53% turnout. Enough to account for bojkotiram and regular apathetic voters, and enough to show that they can't be accused of fudging the numbers.

                Comment

                • Dove
                  Member
                  • Aug 2018
                  • 170

                  A picture is being painted for the Macedonian public that the Diaspora is behind Zaev's agreement. There was a news report (TV - I think about FDM). FDM is for the Referendum. Here is their statement of 14 August: https://www.balkaninsider.com/forum-...on-referendum/. Then there was this report about a meeting with an international group of diaspora representatives on 15 August http://english.republika.mk/pm-zaev-...me-referendum/. Just a poorly researched thought.
                  Last edited by Dove; 08-15-2018, 10:33 PM. Reason: correction

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    Thank you Dove.
                    And welcome.

                    ... And I doubt anybody from anywhere in the Diaspora would support this treason.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      Sneaky bastards don't even want us to copy the text .... source document edited to provide this:

                      Prime Minister Zoran Zaev met Wednesday with representatives of the Macedonian diaspora in Italy, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Germany, Slovenia, Croatia and the United States.

                      In the meeting, support was extended for the government policies bringing Macedonia closer to NATO and EU membership, the governments press service said.

                      The interlocutors discussed several current issues, including the importance of the upcoming name referendum and the need for a more active role of all citizens, including expats, in order the referendum to be successful because it opens Macedonia's perspectives and chances of better living standards of all citizens.

                      For Macedonia, Zaev said, NATO and the EU amounts to better economy, stability and security. He noted that he expected the referendum to be successful.

                      Majority of citizens in Macedonia have already said that they champion changes, perspectives instead of isolation, well-being instead of poverty, reforms and democracy that lead to quality living standards and safe future of the country of present and future generations. I am confident that the referendum will verify the decision for a Euro-Atlantic future of Macedonia, which will introduce also a European life in Macedonia and stability and security, stated PM Zaev.

                      He urged them to vote in the upcoming referendum and being representatives of the Macedonian diaspora to play an important role in this historic moment of the progress of Macedonia.

                      Zaev and the expats discussed the benefits from reform processes in the country, from establishing favorable relations with the neighbors and from the Euro-Atlantic integration process.

                      True patriots are those that will secure the future of the country. It is an achievement for our children, for present generations. It is a fulfillment of the centuries-long aspiration of our predecessors to solidify the identity of the citizens in Macedonia, the Macedonian language and the establishment of Macedonia as a state in the global family of states once and for all,” stressed PM Zaev.

                      He thanked the expats for their willingness to help the country fulfill its strategic goals, NATO and EU accession, and achieve economic prosperity.

                      Furthermore, the sincere policies of the government towards the diaspora were welcomed, designed to create conditions for investing in their homeland, stated the press release.
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        There is a Diaspora group called Forum for Democratic Macedonia that is pro-Zaev's policies and agreements. They are relatively new and consist of some recent immigrants who were involved or supported the Color Revolution. This is probably who they met with, along with other select individuals.

                        Comment

                        • Bill77
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 4545

                          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                          There is a Diaspora group called Forum for Democratic Macedonia that is pro-Zaev's policies and agreements. They are relatively new and consist of some recent immigrants who were involved or supported the Color Revolution. This is probably who they met with, along with other select individuals.
                          I'm a follower of Sasha Uzunov (who seems well educated on Macedonian issues) on twitter and he claims majority of supporters of the so called Forum for Democratic Macedonia, is a Zaev diaspora front and are ex Serb / Yugoslavist sympathisers who hate Macedonians. I have no reason to doubt his claims.
                          http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            Ednooki - Severna Makedonija
                            Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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                            • Tomche Makedonche
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2011
                              • 1123

                              International and domestic media watchdogs have accused the government and the opposition of sneaking in legal changes that will further curb press freedom and distort the media market in Macedonia.


                              Macedonia Accused of Restricting Media Freedom Again

                              International and domestic media watchdogs have accused the government and the opposition of sneaking in legal changes that will further curb press freedom and distort the media market in Macedonia.

                              Macedonia’s government and the opposition have used the turbulence surrounding the forthcoming ‘name’ referendum to reintroduce state-funded advertising, which was halted a few years ago, and introduce controls over online media – moves that watchdogs and journalists say will curb media freedom and distort the media market again.

                              Parliament passed these provisions, which are now part of the Electoral Code, on July 25, after the four main political parties in the country agreed on it as part of their talks about the forthcoming*referendum on the historic ‘name’ agreement with Greece.

                              “The amendments enable interference by public authorities in the freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas during electoral campaigns and in their editorial independence,” the European Federation of Journalists, EFJ said in a statement on Monday.

                              On August 9, the Council of Europe's platform for the protection of journalism also issued a warning to the Macedonian parliament about the provisions.

                              The country’s leading Journalist’s Association, ZNM, the Independent Trade Union of Journalists and Media Workers, SSNM, the Macedonian Council of Media Ethics, SEEM, and even the state-run Audio and Audio Visual Agency, AVMU, have all criticised the changes.*

                              The first provision allows political parties to use state budget money for their political advertisements during elections.*

                              “This brings back, in a big way, the government advertisement campaigns from the time of the regime of [former Prime Minister Nikola] Gruevski, when the government spent public money on media campaigns about their alleged successes,” said Naser Selmani, the head of the ZNM.

                              Although the Social Democrat-led government claims this will regulate the financing of political parties and introduce an equal playing field, while in opposition, the Social Democrats spent years harshly criticising their predecessors, the administration led by Gruevski, the former chief of the right-wing VMRO DPMNE party, who spent millions on state-sponsored media campaigns.

                              The former government*halted its controversial ad campaigns in 2015*after widespread criticism that it was using them to control the media and disrupt the media market. It did so after being entangled in a major wiretapping scandal which led to it being ousted in 2017, after a*deep and prolonged political crisis.

                              Another disputed amendment to the Electoral Code empowers the State Election Commission to register and monitor online media reporting on the elections. In addition, Article 181a of the law provides for the imposition of fines of up to 4,000 euros on traditional and online media if they are found guilty of “unbalanced or impartial reporting”.

                              This is the first time that the Electoral Commission has been tasked with monitoring media reporting.*

                              Previously, it was the AVMU that monitored and fined media for biased reporting, but it gave up this practice during last year’s local elections, saying the practice was flawed and not in line with European standards.

                              Before coming to power, the Social Democrats pledged to honour the opinions of media watchdogs and professionals, who for the most part are against tight regulation of the media sphere, insisting that self-regulation combined with a government policy of non-interference is preferable.
                              “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                              Comment

                              • Tomche Makedonche
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2011
                                • 1123

                                A month and a half before the referendum on the historic 'name' agreement with Greece, the campaigns in support of the deal and for a boycott of the plebiscite are heating up.


                                Macedonia Referendum Campaign Picks Up Pace

                                A month and a half before the referendum on the historic 'name' agreement with Greece, the campaigns in support of the deal and for a boycott of the plebiscite are heating up

                                Although the campaign for the referendum on Macedonia’s ‘name’ deal with Greece officially kicks off 20 days before the vote on September 30, the battle to sway public opinion has already picked up pace, mainly on social media.

                                The propaganda campaigns so far have mainly been waged by the Social Democrat-led government which sees the ‘name’ deal as a historic opportunity for the country to unblock its EU and NATO accession bids, and those who propose a boycott, deeming the agreement with Greece to change the country’s name treasonous.

                                The latest addition to the pro-deal campaign was a*promotional video posted on the Twitter and Facebook*page of Prime Minister Zoran Zaev, which put forward the message that “Macedonia will become part of united Europe” and ended with the slogan: “It is time for a decision! We are moving forward, into NATO and into the EU.”

                                The government on its website has already published the text of the deal with Greece, along with a separate*page of ‘facts’ on the agreement, containing the main bullet points that address many popular fears and misconceptions about it.

                                One of the bullet points states that “with article 7 of the agreement, Macedonian identity is protected”.

                                The prime minister and other government officials and supporters have been urging people to thoroughly inspect the text of the deal, using the Twitter hashtags “#ФактиЗаДоговорот” [Facts About the Agreement] and “#МКвоЕУ” and “#МКвоНАТО” [MK in EU and MK in NATO].

                                The government campaign will pick up pace by the end of this week and the start of the next, Zaev’s political advisor Bojan Maricic said on Tuesday.

                                “The campaign will be promotional and informative,” Maricic promised.
                                It will mainly focus on dispelling false information about the agreement in order to convince people to come out and vote, he added.

                                The referendum on September 30 will ask voters if they back Macedonia's accession to NATO and the EU by accepting the name agreement with Greece that was signed in June.

                                Under the deal, Macedonia agreed to change its name to Republic of North Macedonia, while Greece agreed to lift its veto on Macedonia's NATO and EU integration.

                                For the deal to be fully implemented, Macedonians must show they support it in a referendum.

                                On the other side of the spectrum, the most active camp on social networks has been the informal movement Bojkotiram (I’m Boycotting), which so far has not named any of its official representatives.

                                The movement uses slogans like “Never North, Always Macedonia”, referring to the proposed name change in the agreement, as well as “Let’s Protect Our Sacred Name”.

                                Among those who have been spreading its messages are university professors, Macedonian diaspora members as well as mainly lower-profile politicians from non-parliamentary political parties.

                                Opposition stalls on referendum

                                One element that is missing at the moment is a clear stand from the main opposition VMRO DPMNE party.*

                                The right-wing party’s leader, Hristijan Mickovski has previously attacked the name agreement as a capitulation, but has also kept insisting that the party has yet to decide whether to participate in the referendum, thus boosting its turnout and credibility.

                                The VMRO DPMNE has so far refused to urge its supporters to vote according to their own views, but has also not officially called for a boycott of the referendum either.

                                “I think that VMRO DPMNE will stall [the decision] for a bit longer. The party may even choose not to have an official campaign,” political analyst Petar Arsovski said on Tuesday.

                                “However, its prominent members, as is already apparent on the ground, will support the ‘Bojkotiram’ movement. I think that the party will manoeuvre between no campaign at all and a secretive support for the boycott,” he added.

                                So far it appears that the party’s leadership is divided on the issue.

                                A member of VMRO DPMNE’s executive committee, Toni Mihajlovski, and a party MP and former Foreign Minister Antonijo Milososki, have called on social media for a boycott.

                                On the other hand, the deputy secretary general of the party, Petar Bogojevski, and another executive committee member, Kostadin Bogdanov, have opted for participation, insisting that people should take responsibility for the future of their country.
                                “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

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