Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Ottoman]

hahahahaha
Do you know greek?
Explain to me the differences in that case, outside the normal dialectical differences all languages have.
Different language, lol.

You want to hear one big difference?

There is proof that Greeks have Ethiopian roots and Sumerians (first civilization on earth) were proto-Turks.

Many modern Greeks just look like Turks which is pretty normal because of the Ottoman occupation for centuries.

Greek cuisine is a copy of Turkish cuisine. Modern Greek architecture has Ottoman origins, the reason you guys got rid of the togas and began to wear proper clothes was because of the Turks. Greek dances are also a copy of Turkish dances (especially fom the Black Sea region)

You guys didnt even know what dancing was before the Turks came, you guys didnt even know what falling in love or having sex (with women) was before the Turks came.

We teached you to cook, we teached you to dress, we teached you to dance, we teached you to fall in love and have sex with women, whats more? even the Greek language had many Turkish words in it, but the Greeks replaced many of those words with Greek ones.

I can go on all day long but I think you got the point.

[Agamoi Thytai]

In the Ottoman Empire everybody was equal because everyone was considered as an Ottoman,

Every MUSLIM was perhaps equal,with Christians the case was different,they were definitely second class citizens.Why do you think many Christians converted to Islam?Did Muslims pay as many taxes as the Christians?Were they obliged to pay the infamous harats?(decapitation tax)

you just dont need to forget that the Turks spread Ottoman culture all over the Balkans, you will find many Turkish elements in every almost Balkan nation; their cuisine, clothing, art, architecture, lifestyle and even languages are heavily influenced by Turkish elements.

Does it mean the Ottoman conquest had some positive impact on the lifes of Balkan people?The Turks also spread backwardness throughout the Balkans.This is very easy to be understood by every Westerner who steps his foot over here.

The Serbian and Greek languages have/had many Turkish words in them. However Greece replaced many of those words with Greek ones.

Do you know how many of these "Turkish" words are actually of Turkish origin and not Arabic or Persian loanwords?Or maybe you believe Turkish has not Greek loanwords?

[Risto the Great]

Hey, I almost agree with everything by the both of you.

[Ottoman]

When Europe was burning heretics and witches the Ottomans were inventing things (the first man flying was an Ottoman for example)

I agree with you that present day Balkan nations are a mess but dont forget there were many wars fought on the Balkans, its not easy to recover from such many tragedy.

Second of course the Turkish language has his loanwords !! almost every language has, but we dont replace them with Turkish words.

Greeks did because they cannot handle it.

[Ottoman]

And why do you think there are so many Jews in present day Turkey?

During the Spanish inquisition and holocaust many Jews fled to the Ottoman Empire/Turkey and were taken in.

Turkey has also many people of African roots, these people were all slaves but the big difference with European black slaves were that these people were allowed to adapt into Ottoman life, they even got their own place to live and most important the right to live, how many black slaves in Europe were also treated this way? many of them were just thrown into the sea.

I forgot to mention both the French and the Dutch were helped by the Ottomans, the Ottomans helped the Dutch against the Spaniards and the French King got cured because Suleiman the Magnificent sended over some yoghurt to cure his diarrhea.

Bottom line Europe learned toleration from the Ottomans, medieval Europe was just the worst place to live in.

[Agamoi Thytai]

You want to hear one big difference?

There is proof that Greeks have Ethiopian roots

Black Athena crap is rejected by all reputable scholars and genetists.

and Sumerians (first civilization on earth) were proto-Turks.

Says who???Kemal Ataturk???

Many modern Greeks just look like Turks which is pretty normal because of the Ottoman occupation for centuries.

Off course,that's normal considering that thousands,if not millions of Greeks were assimilated by Turks,like these here:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/ek_haber.php?ek=r2&haberno=6772

Ah,and first you have to define what is supposed to be the genuine Turkish look you are refering to?Is it this one:

http://www.sport.gr/files/news/2009-06-17/1245254501_turkoglou_250x.jpg

Maybe this?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_0X18t-8ZkNM/S3V09iYoaxI/AAAAAAAACAM/TStwW7ZiKcE/Ozgur13.jpg

Or these?

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/420077/ph03b.jpg

http://im.in.com/media/download/wallpapers/2009/May/turkish_girls_euro_2008_420x315.jpg

Greek cuisine is a copy of Turkish cuisine.
Modern Greek architecture has Ottoman origins, the reason you guys got rid of the togas and began to wear proper clothes was because of the Turks. Greek dances are also a copy of Turkish dances (especially fom the Black Sea region)
You guys didnt even know what dancing was before the Turks came, .
We teached you to cook, we teached you to dress, we teached you to dance,

Sure,Greeks didn't have before 15th century any cuisine,music,architecture and they needed some nomads of the Asian steppes to teach them all this!Makes really a lot of sense!Would you like to show us please some samples of traditional ottoman architecture?Some works of the most famous Ottoman acrhitects,who happened to be of Greek origin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atik_Sinan

you guys didnt even know what falling in love or having sex (with women) was before the Turks came
we teached you to fall in love and have sex with women, whats more?

Give me a break dude!Do you mean pederasty and other homo practices are totally unknown in Turkey???

http://books.google.com/books?id=QjzYdCxumFcC&pg=PA523

Have you ever seen the movie "The midnight express"?I suppose no,because this film is banned in your country!

[Ottoman]

The Midnight Express movie is a propaganda movie just like Alexander

Atik Sinan considered himself as an Ottoman not a Greek, he lived the Ottoman lifestyle because he was raised as an Ottoman, how many muslim Greeks are there around today? not many I think.

Atik Sinan, Mimar Sinan etc. were all Ottomans, they considered themselves Ottoman and they spoke the Ottoman Turkish language.
You really think the whole of Byzantine was just ethnic Greek? lol.

I went to both Greece and Turkey a lot and I see that the architecture of the houses are just the same, how come? did the aliens design that?

You got any proof that Gyros (Doner) Dolmades (Dolma) Baklava (word of Turkic origin) are all Greek dishes? no you dont because its Turkish.

You ever heard of Muazzaz Ilmiye Cig? she is an well known international expert on the Sumerians, studying them for almost her whole life, I think she knows more than your crappy logic do.

[Onur]

Whoa... i guess there is a classical Greek-Turk argument here

I see that Greek one is from Salonika but where are you from Ottoman?

Off course,that's normal considering that thousands,if not millions of Greeks were assimilated by Turks,like these here:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/ek_haber.php?ek=r2&haberno=6772

We have Kurds here speaking Kurdish, Armenians speaking Armenian, Greeks from Istanbul speaking Romaika and even some muslim people in Blacksea still remembers and speaking Romaika as we see from your link.

BUT, how many of Karamanlides and Gagauz can speak Turkish in Greece today? OR Pontian Greeks can speak Romaika as their true language? OR how many Macedonians can speak Macedonian? OR how many Arvanites can speak Albanian, their true language again????

So, answer these questions to me then tell me WHO assimilated WHO????


P. S: "if not millions of Greeks were assimilated by Turks"
Make that billions instead of millions. Looks cooler that way, ok?

[Ottoman]

Onur I lived in Istanbul for many years but now Im living in Europe, I visited the Balkan nations many times and did a road trip through Turkey.

Ancient Greece was a different world than present day Greece, without Ottoman occupation Greece would never be Greece like it is now, our Greek friends cannot accept this which I can understand.

They ruled Anatolia for ages and we Turks ruled them in turn.
That is what history is, there is no need to change it.

There are still many Greek monuments in Turkey today, but many Ottoman monuments were "rebuilt" in Greece which is the ultimate proof that the Greeks cannot handle the situation.

You will find Ottoman designed houses everywhere in the Balkans, in Belgrado, Athens, Sarajevo, thats the way it is, just accept it.

[indigen]

Onur I lived in Istanbul for many years but now Im living in Europe, I visited the Balkan nations many times and did a road trip through Turkey.

Ancient Greece was a different world than present day Greece, without Ottoman occupation Greece would never be Greece like it is now, our Greek friends cannot accept this which I can understand.

They ruled Anatolia for ages and we Turks ruled them in turn.
That is what history is, there is no need to change it.

There are still many Greek monuments in Turkey today, but many Ottoman monuments were "rebuilt" in Greece which is the ultimate proof that the Greeks cannot handle the situation.

You will find Ottoman designed houses everywhere in the Balkans, in Belgrado, Athens, Sarajevo, thats the way it is, just accept it.

If you are not aware, mate, this is a Macedonian Forum and we see things in a different light in regards as to when the first "Greek" state was formed (in 1831, with the aid foreign Imperialist forces and for Imperialist agendas!) who were and were not the ancient Grks and who the modern "Grks" are and are not. Anatolia, except for the coastal fringes, was first ruled by Persians, Macedonians, Romans and "Byzantines" (Romans) and eventfully by Ottoman Empire (Ottomans). As far as I am aware, an Ottoman does not equate to an ethnic Turk and neither does a "Byzantine" equate to an artificially created "Grk".

[Ottoman]

Of course Ottoman doest not equate to an ethnic Turk, but you just dont need to forget that without the Turks there was no Ottoman Empire at all.

[indigen]

Of course Ottoman doest not equate to an ethnic Turk, but you just dont need to forget that without the Turks there was no Ottoman Empire at all.

That is true but it could have evolved into something even without needing much ethnic Turk input to sustain itself, witness the "Byzantine" (Roman) state and its relation to ethnic Romans.

Btw, welcome to MTO!

With respect,
I.

[George S.]

My understanding that kemal attaturk was born in bitola in the republic of macedonia.
If that were not the case why are the turks & macedonians building monuments to kemal attaturk at his place of birth.
Good point indigen that is true.

[Ottoman]

My understanding that kemal attaturk was born in bitola in the republic of macedonia.
If that were not the case why are the turks & macedonians building monuments to kemal attaturk at his place of birth.
Good point indigen that is true.

I never red or heard something like this before mate, Ataturk was born in Selanik.

His ancestors moved from Karaman to Selanik, I can provide you sources if you want.

I do know he went to military school in Bitola.

[Bill77]

Why do you think many Christians converted to Islam?Did Muslims pay as many taxes as the Christians?

Speaking of Taxes and the Christians (In particular those of Morea)

"This renewed Turkish rule the inhabitants found preferable to that of the Venetians; taxes were lighter;

"The peninsula of the Peloponnese (in Southern Greece), which is also known as the Morea, was first partly conquered in 1397 CE by the Ottoman Sultan Beyazit I from the Byzantines, and was completely overrun in 1460 by Sultan Mehmet II, who was received as a deliverer by the Greek Orthodox Christian population, then suffering under the rule of the Roman Catholics1

Does it mean the Ottoman conquest had some positive impact on the lifes of Balkan people?

Well mabe not the whole of the Balkans, but the Albanian speakers of pre Greece didn't complain.

"This renewed Turkish rule the inhabitants found preferable to that of the Venetians

the Greeks in the Ottoman Empire were leading relatively peaceful and prosperous lives, whilst those with the wealth and education found employment in the Ottoman government service. In areas where the Greeks were in the majority they were allowed to establish their own municipalities (dimarchia), free from the interference of the state

You can read more on this thread

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3175&page=3