Macedonian Patriotic Organization

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  • vicsinad
    Senior Member
    • May 2011
    • 2337

    Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
    Yes, but I think Macedonians began to realize this after WWII. During the war he was regarded as an icon among the Macedonian diaspora, as a leader of a new generation of Macedonians that would liberate Macedonia.
    I don't think the available evidence supports this. I think more Macedonians in the Diaspora (those that knew about Mihailoff) didn't like or had great disdain for Miahiloff and his faction.

    Another point worth mentioning is the "Macedono-Bulgarian" label on their churches. One can argue that Macedonians were not satisfied with their churches only carrying the "Bulgarian" name, and by intervening they gained the right to add the prefix "Macedono" in exchange for their loyalty to the Bulgarian synod. I have also seen Canadian newspapers from the 20's (and one from the 60's) where they advertised themselves simply as a "Macedonian Orthodox Church". One has to ask would this not have offended the Bulgarians or pro-Bulgarian parishioners at that time?
    It's also possible, I think, that the Bulgarian Church added the Macedono prefix so the church wouldn't lose potential members to Serbian, Greek and Russian churches in the US or Canada. The first Bulgarian churches set up in the US were Macedono-Bulgarian churches, and it's likely that this was the carrot the Bulgarian church used to encourage Macedonians to join with/under them.

    So few of the parishioners in the US churches were actual ethnic Bulgarians during the 1900s through 1920s.

    Comment

    • vicsinad
      Senior Member
      • May 2011
      • 2337

      Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
      Bulgarian, Macedono-Bulgarian, Macedonian. Would there be any differences in these Churches except for the name (or the politics behind it)? What is/was the language?
      Yes, there would be differences to a certain extent. While Old Church Slavonic was often times used in rituals, if the priests were from Macedonia proper and the parishioners were mostly from Macedonia, they would use the Macedonian language (or a dialect of the modern Macedonian language, depending on where they were from).

      Comment

      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332


        Comment

        • Liberator of Makedonija
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2014
          • 1595

          Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post

          Notice they've used the old Bulgarian spelling, I believe this spelling was changed some in the mid 1920s or maybe even the 30s? Not really sure, but I know that's the old spelling.
          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            Why is it Bulgarian spelling? Macedonians made that alphabet. I suspect the modern Macedonian alphabet had a bit of Serbian Yugo influence involved in the final decision making.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              They started their book by mentioning a Bulgarian proverb and later talk about transliterating the songs "from the original Bulgarian." So, in their mind (MPO's), it's Bulgarian spelling and language.

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                There is no doubt about what that organisation of gypsies called it, but the alphabet is another matter.
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Karposh
                  Member
                  • Aug 2015
                  • 863

                  Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                  Maybe unrelated to MPO, but I recently found the following on Macedonian television.

                  The YouTube URL for the video is here:
                  Во Центар со Васко Ефтов - Како се растураше Македонија!? Како едно по едно се разнебитија четирите столба на МАКЕДОНИЗМОТ? Јазик, Црква, МАНУ, име! Не пропу...


                  FORWARD to minute 6:52 and start watching from there (basically from 6:52 until 7:45).

                  There is a letter/report from Met. Shatorov Sharlo dated May 1941 where he wrote (this is what the Macedonian historian is explaining in the video):

                  "Edna tretina vo Makedonija ima jasna Makedonska svest, edna tretina e so Bugarska nacionalna svest (i tie se recidivi od Ekzarhijata) ..... Edna tretina se uste ne se opredeleni, megjutoa, pretendiraat na kaj Makedonskoto cuvstvo ..."

                  ("One third in Macedonia have a clear Macedonian identity, one third are with Bulgarian national identity .......... one third are still undecided, but leaning towards the Macedonian identity.")
                  Like you said, that piece of information wasn't related to MPO but you still felt the need to personally inform me (since you quoted me), and everyone else, about Sharlo's views regarding supposed Bulgarian sentiments among Macedonians in 1941. I hate to come across as attacking anyone on this forum, especially if I've missed something along the way, but Carlin mate I honestly don't get you. If you're not pushing a Vlach agenda, it seems you're pushing a Bulgarian one. I have to ask, do you even consider yourself a Macedonian?

                  Granted, Sharlo was from a time in history that probably qualifies him to make a call, or an informed opinion, on the general national sentiments of Macedonians of that era. After all, he would have mixed with Macedonians from every corner of Macedonia but I would still question his statistics. Did he personally conduct a census in Macedonia to get a clear picture of every Macedonian's sense of identity in 1941 in order to come to the conclusion that one third of Macedonians have Bulgarian national identity? And worse still, one third aren't really sure but think they are Macedonian (??? - How could he possibly know that?) I think everyone is aware that pro-Bulgarian, pro-Serbian and pro-Greek sentiments have existed among Macedonians ever since these three relatively new modern states established themselves. They certainly exist today too and one would be naďve to think otherwise but statistics based on personal opinions are not proof of anything. It seems that Sharlo himself might have had pro-Bulgarian sentiments – if not at the start of WWII then perhaps towards the end of it, when he was banished from Macedonia by the pro-Yugoslav communists for alleged pro-Bulgarian sentiments.

                  I have nothing against impartiality and keeping a balanced view on the question of Macedonian national identity among Macedonians of the 19th and early 20th Century but time and time again you seem to be championing the Bulgarian cause rather than the Macedonian one. Most of your posts seem to take the position of the Bulgarian character of Macedonia and Macedonians rather than trying to research and post evidence to the contrary as most of us strive to do here.
                  We get it - there were pro-Bulgarian sentiments among some Macedonians of the 19th and 20th Century. But it seems that you're not satisfied with this concession alone and are fighting tooth and nail to prove that ALL Macedonians were really little Bulgarians during that time.

                  To be honest, I'm surprised no-one else has pulled you up on this point to date. Just a cursory glance back at some of your posts and they are filled with “proofs” and theories about some supposed Vlach or Bulgarian character of Macedonia. Is this really necessary on a Macedonian forum?

                  Comment

                  • Liberator of Makedonija
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 1595

                    Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                    Like you said, that piece of information wasn't related to MPO but you still felt the need to personally inform me (since you quoted me), and everyone else, about Sharlo's views regarding supposed Bulgarian sentiments among Macedonians in 1941. I hate to come across as attacking anyone on this forum, especially if I've missed something along the way, but Carlin mate I honestly don't get you. If you're not pushing a Vlach agenda, it seems you're pushing a Bulgarian one. I have to ask, do you even consider yourself a Macedonian?

                    Granted, Sharlo was from a time in history that probably qualifies him to make a call, or an informed opinion, on the general national sentiments of Macedonians of that era. After all, he would have mixed with Macedonians from every corner of Macedonia but I would still question his statistics. Did he personally conduct a census in Macedonia to get a clear picture of every Macedonian's sense of identity in 1941 in order to come to the conclusion that one third of Macedonians have Bulgarian national identity? And worse still, one third aren't really sure but think they are Macedonian (??? - How could he possibly know that?) I think everyone is aware that pro-Bulgarian, pro-Serbian and pro-Greek sentiments have existed among Macedonians ever since these three relatively new modern states established themselves. They certainly exist today too and one would be naďve to think otherwise but statistics based on personal opinions are not proof of anything. It seems that Sharlo himself might have had pro-Bulgarian sentiments – if not at the start of WWII then perhaps towards the end of it, when he was banished from Macedonia by the pro-Yugoslav communists for alleged pro-Bulgarian sentiments.

                    I have nothing against impartiality and keeping a balanced view on the question of Macedonian national identity among Macedonians of the 19th and early 20th Century but time and time again you seem to be championing the Bulgarian cause rather than the Macedonian one. Most of your posts seem to take the position of the Bulgarian character of Macedonia and Macedonians rather than trying to research and post evidence to the contrary as most of us strive to do here.
                    We get it - there were pro-Bulgarian sentiments among some Macedonians of the 19th and 20th Century. But it seems that you're not satisfied with this concession alone and are fighting tooth and nail to prove that ALL Macedonians were really little Bulgarians during that time.

                    To be honest, I'm surprised no-one else has pulled you up on this point to date. Just a cursory glance back at some of your posts and they are filled with “proofs” and theories about some supposed Vlach or Bulgarian character of Macedonia. Is this really necessary on a Macedonian forum?
                    Was this Sharlo guy the Macedonian member of the Bulgarian Communist Party who supposedly supporter the occupation of Vardar Macedonia? The one who apparently stated that Macedonia and Bulgaria are now "one nation, one people" or something of that.
                    I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                    Comment

                    • Amphipolis
                      Banned
                      • Aug 2014
                      • 1328

                      Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                      Granted, Sharlo was from a time in history that probably qualifies him to make a call, or an informed opinion, on the general national sentiments of Macedonians of that era. After all, he would have mixed with Macedonians from every corner of Macedonia but I would still question his statistics. Did he personally conduct a census in Macedonia to get a clear picture of every Macedonian's sense of identity in 1941 in order to come to the conclusion that one third of Macedonians have Bulgarian national identity?
                      Hmmm... the recent film "Lincoln" by Steven Spielberg can answer that. It is a politician's job to smell the public opinion, to conduct a semi-systematic research that may seem primitive under modern standards, to form estimation and decide on his next moves. If he's wrong then he's the first to fail.

                      So don’t get upset. This was his opinion, or estimation or he was lying or he was fooling himself.

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        I wrote my latest book on this group.

                        It's called, "The Uncomfortable Truth about the Macedonian Political Organization." The goal wasn't to detail MPO's general history as an organization, but rather work out the pro-Macedonia vs. pro-Bulgarian tendencies throughout its nearly century long existence.

                        You can get the Kindle edition or paperback edition at the following links:





                        The book is about 125 pages with endnotes. I've included part of the introduction in here so you can get an idea of what it's about:


                        The Macedonian Political Organization (MPO) (presently known as the Macedonian Patriotic Organization) is perhaps one of the most controversial Macedonian Diaspora organizations. On one hand, its official stance has always been the realization of a ‘Macedonia for the Macedonians’; its members and followers promote the Macedonian culture; and they call themselves Macedonians. On the other hand, the MPO leadership has often negated the existence of ethnic Macedonians and a Macedonian language, and the MPO bylaws claim that the term ‘Macedonian’ has no ethnic connotation. Moreover, the bylaws list ethnic groups that hail from Macedonia, which conspicuously does not include ethnic Macedonians.1 To the MPO leadership and many of its members, the ethnic Macedonian identity is an invention of Yugoslav Communist leader Josip Broz Tito. Yes, the MPO indeed says it is an organization of Macedonians. By this, however, it only means that its members originate from geographical Macedonia and that their language and ethnic identity is Bulgarian. Thus, while on certain levels the MPO can be considered a ‘pro-Macedonia’ organization, it cannot be classified as a ‘pro-Macedonian’ group.

                        Some readers may therefore rightfully find it puzzling that I have expended much effort in writing a book about the MPO. Admittedly, I had hesitations as well, especially because there are ethnic Macedonians and other Macedonian groups more deserving of our understanding and attention. However, I proffer the following reasons to at least clarify my motives for exploring the MPO in depth.

                        First, most regular MPO members and function attendees knew little or nothing about its leadership’s ties to fascist Bulgaria. They were repeatedly informed that the MPO was working for Macedonia’s independence and against other forces (such as Communists and the Serbian and Greek governments) that sought to keep Macedonia divided. Members of all MPO chapters prior to World War II detested Macedonia’s division under Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. If they had any sympathy for Bulgaria, it was two-fold: one, MPO leaders convinced many followers that the IMRO movement in Pirin Macedonia (Bulgarian Macedonia) was the direct descendent of the IMRO movement that originated in 1893 and that this IMRO was supported by Bulgaria in its endeavors; and two, Pirin Macedonia was essentially a separate state within Bulgaria. Throughout the 1920s and 1930s, IMRO governed, taxed, policed and controlled Pirin Macedonia and it was only formally a political unit of Bulgaria. Therefore, many Macedonians did not feel as threatened by Bulgaria during this period in the same way that they felt threatened by Serbia and Greece. Moreover, as demonstrated by the evidence, many MPO members prior to World War II never identified as Bulgarians. Like many Macedonians, they would sometimes classify their language as Bulgarian if pressed, but this was because Macedonian had not yet been codified. Still, many insisted that they spoke the Macedonian language.

                        Second, in the late 1940s, the United States branded the Macedonian-American People’s League (also known as the Macedonian People’s League, a progressive Macedonian group that advocated for the codification of the Macedonian language and recognition of the Macedonian ethnic identity, as well as the establishment of an independent and united Macedonia) as a subversive communist organization and it disintegrated. The MPO then portrayed itself, and was perceived by outsiders, as the only remaining national Macedonian organization in the U.S. From the early 1950s until the Republic of Macedonia’s independence in 1991, the MPO was indeed the only visible national organization of Macedonians and it controlled the narrative of the Macedonians’ plight. This was the reality despite the obvious fact that most ethnic Macedonians wanted nothing to do with the MPO during this period.

                        Third, the MPO holds a place in the overall story of the Macedonians’ national, ethnic and cultural development abroad, in both negative and positive respects. On the negative side, the MPO refused to associate with the Macedonian ethnic identity, the Macedonian language, and the Macedonian Orthodox Church, even after all three of those became viable realities in the middle of the 20th century. While many Macedonians shook off their pro-Serbian, pro-Bulgarian or pro-Greek biases to join the Macedonian Orthodox Church and identify as Macedonians who spoke the Macedonian language, the MPO core dug its heels in its pro-Bulgarian attitudes. This sowed divisions within the Macedonian-American community. On the positive side, the MPO remained consistent in continuingly promoting the idea of a united and independent Macedonia while providing Macedonian-Americans with many cultural and social opportunities. For those Macedonians who were unaware of the MPO’s Bulgarian leanings or who did not have access to other Macedonian groups, this helped preserve many families’ Macedonian culture and heritage for several generations.

                        Moreover, this book is not a comprehensive history of the MPO. For example, it leaves out much of MPO’s cultural and social activities and instead examines how the MPO walked the line between being ‘pro-Bulgarian’ and ‘pro-Macedonia’. The MPO is an organization that had many chapters and members who embraced a variety of ideas and viewpoints on the Macedonian identity and people. Additionally, many people who were once MPO members eventually left the group and joined other Macedonian clubs, societies, and church communities that harbored and promoted an ethnic Macedonian identity. Examining and exposing the real story behind the MPO provides Macedonians and scholars with a better understanding of the precise role MPO played (and plays) in the overall story of Macedonian-Americans and the Macedonian Cause.

                        While for some Macedonians these reasons still do not justify spending time outlining the history of the MPO, I acknowledge that the story of Macedonian-Americans cannot be wholly told without some insight into, and explanation of, the MPO. Just as the story of modern Macedonia cannot be completely told without, for example, insights into Ivan Mihajlov, the right-wing pro-Bulgarian Macedonian gangster, or Ljubco Georgievski, the former Macedonian prime minister who openly embraced a pro-Bulgarian agenda after his tenure expired, the story of Macedonia and Macedonians in America is incomplete without some rendering of MPO’s history.

                        The MPO is a remnant of battles between pro-Serbian, pro-Bulgarian, pro-Greek, and pro-Macedonian forces in Macedonia during the early 20th century, when Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece were circulating propaganda in Macedonia through their respective churches, schools and armed bands. MPO loyalists in the U.S. continued to maintain their pro-Bulgarian position while the pro-Macedonian elements were embracing victory both in the Balkans and in the U.S. While many MPO members were expressing their Macedonian culture and identity, the MPO leadership was constantly under the sway of Bulgarian propaganda, which is rooted in the Bulgarian Government’s and Bulgarian Orthodox Church’s efforts beginning in the 1870s. This propaganda permeated the minds and hearts of Macedonians for several generations and is not easily uprooted. This has been the sad and unfortunate destiny of the Macedonian nation for many decades.

                        Comment

                        • Liberator of Makedonija
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 1595

                          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                          I wrote my latest book on this group.

                          It's called, "The Uncomfortable Truth about the Macedonian Political Organization." The goal wasn't to detail MPO's general history as an organization, but rather work out the pro-Macedonia vs. pro-Bulgarian tendencies throughout its nearly century long existence.

                          You can get the Kindle edition or paperback edition at the following links:





                          The book is about 125 pages with endnotes. I've included part of the introduction in here so you can get an idea of what it's about:


                          The Macedonian Political Organization (MPO) (presently known as the Macedonian Patriotic Organization) is perhaps one of the most controversial Macedonian Diaspora organizations. On one hand, its official stance has always been the realization of a ‘Macedonia for the Macedonians’; its members and followers promote the Macedonian culture; and they call themselves Macedonians. On the other hand, the MPO leadership has often negated the existence of ethnic Macedonians and a Macedonian language, and the MPO bylaws claim that the term ‘Macedonian’ has no ethnic connotation. Moreover, the bylaws list ethnic groups that hail from Macedonia, which conspicuously does not include ethnic Macedonians.1 To the MPO leadership and many of its members, the ethnic Macedonian identity is an invention of Yugoslav Communist leader Josip Broz Tito. Yes, the MPO indeed says it is an organization of Macedonians. By this, however, it only means that its members originate from geographical Macedonia and that their language and ethnic identity is Bulgarian. Thus, while on certain levels the MPO can be considered a ‘pro-Macedonia’ organization, it cannot be classified as a ‘pro-Macedonian’ group.

                          Some readers may therefore rightfully find it puzzling that I have expended much effort in writing a book about the MPO. Admittedly, I had hesitations as well, especially because there are ethnic Macedonians and other Macedonian groups more deserving of our understanding and attention. However, I proffer the following reasons to at least clarify my motives for exploring the MPO in depth.

                          First, most regular MPO members and function attendees knew little or nothing about its leadership’s ties to fascist Bulgaria. They were repeatedly informed that the MPO was working for Macedonia’s independence and against other forces (such as Communists and the Serbian and Greek governments) that sought to keep Macedonia divided. Members of all MPO chapters prior to World War II detested Macedonia’s division under Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. If they had any sympathy for Bulgaria, it was two-fold: one, MPO leaders convinced many followers that the IMRO movement in Pirin Macedonia (Bulgarian Macedonia) was the direct descendent of the IMRO movement that originated in 1893 and that this IMRO was supported by Bulgaria in its endeavors; and two, Pirin Macedonia was essentially a separate state within Bulgaria. Throughout the 1920s and 1930s, IMRO governed, taxed, policed and controlled Pirin Macedonia and it was only formally a political unit of Bulgaria. Therefore, many Macedonians did not feel as threatened by Bulgaria during this period in the same way that they felt threatened by Serbia and Greece. Moreover, as demonstrated by the evidence, many MPO members prior to World War II never identified as Bulgarians. Like many Macedonians, they would sometimes classify their language as Bulgarian if pressed, but this was because Macedonian had not yet been codified. Still, many insisted that they spoke the Macedonian language.

                          Second, in the late 1940s, the United States branded the Macedonian-American People’s League (also known as the Macedonian People’s League, a progressive Macedonian group that advocated for the codification of the Macedonian language and recognition of the Macedonian ethnic identity, as well as the establishment of an independent and united Macedonia) as a subversive communist organization and it disintegrated. The MPO then portrayed itself, and was perceived by outsiders, as the only remaining national Macedonian organization in the U.S. From the early 1950s until the Republic of Macedonia’s independence in 1991, the MPO was indeed the only visible national organization of Macedonians and it controlled the narrative of the Macedonians’ plight. This was the reality despite the obvious fact that most ethnic Macedonians wanted nothing to do with the MPO during this period.

                          Third, the MPO holds a place in the overall story of the Macedonians’ national, ethnic and cultural development abroad, in both negative and positive respects. On the negative side, the MPO refused to associate with the Macedonian ethnic identity, the Macedonian language, and the Macedonian Orthodox Church, even after all three of those became viable realities in the middle of the 20th century. While many Macedonians shook off their pro-Serbian, pro-Bulgarian or pro-Greek biases to join the Macedonian Orthodox Church and identify as Macedonians who spoke the Macedonian language, the MPO core dug its heels in its pro-Bulgarian attitudes. This sowed divisions within the Macedonian-American community. On the positive side, the MPO remained consistent in continuingly promoting the idea of a united and independent Macedonia while providing Macedonian-Americans with many cultural and social opportunities. For those Macedonians who were unaware of the MPO’s Bulgarian leanings or who did not have access to other Macedonian groups, this helped preserve many families’ Macedonian culture and heritage for several generations.

                          Moreover, this book is not a comprehensive history of the MPO. For example, it leaves out much of MPO’s cultural and social activities and instead examines how the MPO walked the line between being ‘pro-Bulgarian’ and ‘pro-Macedonia’. The MPO is an organization that had many chapters and members who embraced a variety of ideas and viewpoints on the Macedonian identity and people. Additionally, many people who were once MPO members eventually left the group and joined other Macedonian clubs, societies, and church communities that harbored and promoted an ethnic Macedonian identity. Examining and exposing the real story behind the MPO provides Macedonians and scholars with a better understanding of the precise role MPO played (and plays) in the overall story of Macedonian-Americans and the Macedonian Cause.

                          While for some Macedonians these reasons still do not justify spending time outlining the history of the MPO, I acknowledge that the story of Macedonian-Americans cannot be wholly told without some insight into, and explanation of, the MPO. Just as the story of modern Macedonia cannot be completely told without, for example, insights into Ivan Mihajlov, the right-wing pro-Bulgarian Macedonian gangster, or Ljubco Georgievski, the former Macedonian prime minister who openly embraced a pro-Bulgarian agenda after his tenure expired, the story of Macedonia and Macedonians in America is incomplete without some rendering of MPO’s history.

                          The MPO is a remnant of battles between pro-Serbian, pro-Bulgarian, pro-Greek, and pro-Macedonian forces in Macedonia during the early 20th century, when Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece were circulating propaganda in Macedonia through their respective churches, schools and armed bands. MPO loyalists in the U.S. continued to maintain their pro-Bulgarian position while the pro-Macedonian elements were embracing victory both in the Balkans and in the U.S. While many MPO members were expressing their Macedonian culture and identity, the MPO leadership was constantly under the sway of Bulgarian propaganda, which is rooted in the Bulgarian Government’s and Bulgarian Orthodox Church’s efforts beginning in the 1870s. This propaganda permeated the minds and hearts of Macedonians for several generations and is not easily uprooted. This has been the sad and unfortunate destiny of the Macedonian nation for many decades.
                          Any chance of getting a physical copy in Australia without having to give-up a lung?
                          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                          Comment

                          • vicsinad
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2011
                            • 2337

                            How much does is it selling for on the Amazon page there?

                            In US it's listed as $9.99. Is it the shipping to AU that's costing a lot?

                            Comment

                            • Liberator of Makedonija
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 1595

                              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                              How much does is it selling for on the Amazon page there?

                              In US it's listed as $9.99. Is it the shipping to AU that's costing a lot?
                              Shipping from the US to Australia tends to be grossly expensive, hence why American listings generally aren't included in eBay searches here.
                              I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                              Comment

                              • vicsinad
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2011
                                • 2337

                                Give it a few days, maybe it will appear in the amazon.com.au site and the shipping/cost will be less.

                                Comment

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