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Old 09-06-2010, 06:54 AM   #11
thessalo-niki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lavce pelagonski View Post
keep dreaming a greek in Bitola ye and wats with all the tatars probably Macedonian.
Yes, actually he's the only one I could confirm from other sources. Traianos Nallis was a Greek Vlach (so I don't know how post#1 counts him). I couldn't confirm (yet) the other Greeks, their past and future. The names seem to be misspelled (or Turkish versions of their names). See pages 228, 250. It’s a conspiracy, some of the most interesting pages do not appear.
http://books.google.gr/books?id=9j71...nallis&f=false

This is not a census, it's election results after an election (filtering) system described in post#1. While it says 1912, I think it's the election of 1908. The 1908-1912 Parliament never actually operated. I don't know if there were 1912 elections few months before Ottoman collapse in Macedonia (I think not).
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Old 09-06-2010, 08:07 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by thessalo-niki View Post
Traianos Nallis was a Greek Vlach (so I don't know how post#1 counts him).
Well, other than wonnabe Vlachs who were represented them self as Romaioi, you ain't gonna find anything in Macedonia which is nearly as Greek as you want.

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It is this phenomenon, the Hellenization of the Vlachs, that is of interest here. The remarkable power of Hellenism in assimilating the Vlachs has routinely been attributed to the idea that there was some strong benefit for the Vlachs in being Hellenized; Arnold Toynbee, for example, has said that "Hellenism stands to them for the transition to a higher social phase."[6] In Nearer East, D. G. Hogarth saw the attraction of Hellenism for the Vlachs in the fact that it represented a "higher civilisation."[7] H. N. Brailsford felt the connection of the Vlachs to Greece to be self-interested and opportunistic, the result of the "undisputed primacy" of the Greeks (and of Greek as the language of commerce) in the Balkans in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries;[8] again, the implication is functional, i.e., that there was some advantage to be gained by the Vlachs through their Hellenization. The most recent historian of the Vlachs, Tom Winnifrith, also cites the advantages and prestige of Greek language and culture as factors in the Hellenization of the Vlachs.[9]

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl28_3.htm
All you have are wonna be Romaioi, who were nothing alike you call and consider a Hellene of Ancient or Modern times.
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Last edited by makedonin; 09-06-2010 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 09-06-2010, 10:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thessalo-niki View Post
Yes, actually he's the only one I could confirm from other sources. Traianos Nallis was a Greek Vlach (so I don't know how post#1 counts him). I couldn't confirm (yet) the other Greeks, their past and future. The names seem to be misspelled (or Turkish versions of their names). See pages 228, 250. It’s a conspiracy, some of the most interesting pages do not appear.
http://books.google.gr/books?id=9j71...nallis&f=false

This is not a census, it's election results after an election (filtering) system described in post#1. While it says 1912, I think it's the election of 1908. The 1908-1912 Parliament never actually operated. I don't know if there were 1912 elections few months before Ottoman collapse in Macedonia (I think not).
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The names are just written according to Turkish orthography, so probably there should be few letter differences in their names if you search in Greek or English books.

1908-1912 parliament was the 3rd parliamentary election in Ottoman history. It`s not based on the population percentages of districts. There was a quota based system, like for the 1908 elections, there should be 142 Turks, 60 Arabs, 25 Albanians, 23 Istanbul patriarchy members(should be Greeks but few might be hellenized Vlach, dunno), 16 Armenian church members, 5 Jews, 4 Bulgarian patriarchy members(These are Macedonians but might be pro-Bulgar people, dunno), 3 Serbian church members(these were probably from Kosovo), 1 Vlach(yes Vlach, cuz Ottoman Empire recognized Vlach identity in Macedonia but Greeks didn't after they invaded Aegean side) and 1 Assyrian. So, these names are not really an ethnicity but church allegiances based on the quota agreed between the communities and the Sultan. The first aim of this parliament was already forming some kind of federation system inside Ottoman Empire and unite everyone under the tag of Ottoman citizenship. So, church allegiance was still the prime factor at that time, not the ethnicity but ofc it failed.

The Committee of Union and Progress(CUP) was the political party of Jeune(Young) Turks movement and they did coup d`etat against the Sultan shortly after the formation of 3rd parliament.

This was the result of 1908 elections as you said and this parliament actually did work and it was operational `till 1912. There are several books including the compilation of official reports and speeches of parliamentarians between 1908-1912. The Sultan regained his powers for a short time and he abolished the parliament at 1912. Jeune Turks overthrew him again after few months but the parliament was already abolished by Sultan and Balkan wars was going to start, so there wasn't any new election at 1912.

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Old 09-06-2010, 11:08 AM   #14
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That's very interesting Onur. Are you saying that for each district (or sub-district) the number of representatives per ethnicity (or religion) was pre-defined? It was not one person, one vote? (If so, we shouldn't bother). Are you sure?
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thessalo-niki View Post
That's very interesting Onur. Are you saying that for each district (or sub-district) the number of representatives per ethnicity (or religion) was pre-defined? It was not one person, one vote? (If so, we shouldn't bother). Are you sure?

I gotta check again to be %100 sure but as far as i remember from the books i`ve read b4, churches(patriarchies) and community representatives was negotiating with Sultan for the number of parliamentarians they can have. Ofc total population of the communities and the percentage of them in total population of the Empire was primary factor but not the only one. For example, Istanbul patriarchy members had the quota of 23 person and then they predefine for like ~50 person and members of patriarchy votes between these people and 23 of them gets selected as a parliamentarian representing Istanbul patriarchy community in the parliament.

It was like that otherwise we could see more Turkish parliamentarians from Salonika, Monastir or Kosovo. I think this predefine system was a demand of christian communities because they were saying that their people was living as scattered among the Turks others in vast territories and they would have no chance to get proper representation in the parliament with other election systems.

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Old 09-07-2010, 07:31 PM   #16
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Consider this also.

When it came to who would represent Macedonia in Ottoman elections, and parliament, the Greek State and Bulgarian State collaborated closely as to how many Greeks and Bulgarians would represent Macedonia on the Turkish Council, and in Parliament.

The number of Bulgarians and Greeks that were to represent Macedonia was "in accord with population figures". p. 10, Vavoukos, C.A., Greek Macedonian Strugle for Freedom (Institute of Balkan Studies, 1973.

If you consider how the Ottoman classified Christians in Macedonia, and how those population figures false represented Macedonia as a land of Greek Patriarchists, and Bulgarian Exarchists - we can see how the Macedonians were effectively shut out, and shut down.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:32 AM   #17
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Bump.......
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