Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian History

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-10-2008, 06:34 PM   #1
Pelister
Senior Member
 
Pelister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,745
Pelister is on a distinguished road
Default The Ancient Macedonian Language !

New Thread -

All evidence, fully sourced and referenced, when possible, is most welcome.
Pelister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2008, 06:40 PM   #2
Risto the Great
Senior Member
 
Risto the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Colony of Australia
Posts: 14,706
Risto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Oxford & co are still unable to say what it was.
__________________
Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA

"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Risto the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2008, 06:43 PM   #3
Pelister
Senior Member
 
Pelister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,745
Pelister is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:

'Compare for example, Macedonian ade sky and Greek aiter; Macedonian kebala head, and Greek kephale. If such sets are rightly analyzed as cognates, the Macedonian language departs conspicuously from Greek in showing voiced unaspirated rather than voiceless aspirated reflexes of the earlier Indo-European voiced aspirated stops.'

References to Macedonian Speech -

Quote:

'The precise sense of "speaking Macedonian" in these and other passages can be and has been debated; yet when these references to Macedonian speech are considered in their context, it is not difficult for one to conclude that what is being reported is the use of a distinct, non-Greek (i.e., "barbarian") Macedonian language.'

Woodward, R.D., (ed.) The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages, Cambridge, 2004
Pelister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2008, 08:21 PM   #4
Philosopher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,003
Philosopher is on a distinguished road
Default

Plutarch wrote: "However, he [Alexander] did not get embarrassed, but jumped to his feet and began to call for his shield bearers in Macedonian, which was a sign of great danger, and ordered his trumpeter to blow the trumpet."


Quntus Curtius Rufus, "Then the king looked at him and said 'Macedonians will be your judges, and I ask you whether you will use their language before them? Besides Macedonians, there are many others here who, to my opinion, will understand what I am going to say, if I use the same language [Hellenic] you used, for no other reason except that, as I trust, my words are understood by the majority of those present. Do you see to what degree Philotas denies his father's language? He finds it repulisve to speak in that language!..but do not forget that he does not even respect his customs, or his own language.'" The implication is that his own language was not the Hellenic he was using.

Max Fosmer, one of the great experts on Balkan languages, categorically states that the ancient Macedonian language was different from ancient Greek.
Philosopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2008, 08:32 PM   #5
Pelister
Senior Member
 
Pelister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,745
Pelister is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:

'Plutarch, the Greek savant of the first and second centuries AD. when writing of Cleopatra (Life of Antony 27.3-4), the last of the Ptolemies (the Macedonian kings of Egypt), lauds her linguistic abilities, reporting that she could speak the languages of the Ethiopians, Troglodytes, Hebrews, Arabs, Syrians, Medes and Parthians. In contrast, her male predecessors had not even learned Egyptian and some had even "ceased to speak Macedonian".'

Woodward, R.D., (ed.) The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages, Cambridge, 2004, p.13

We can see references to people being asked to speak in Macedonian, and we can see references to people ceasing to speak in Macedonian.
Pelister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2008, 04:30 AM   #6
makedonin
Senior Member
 
makedonin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,668
makedonin is on a distinguished road
Default

I have written this a while back, but it is relevant to the topic:

Quote:
Here is the entry point of this discussion, the Charles Bryant-Abraham, Ph. D. and his conclusion.

What was the Mother Tongue of Alexander the Great

As you can see, Bryan Abraham is stressing out that the Greek Scholar Ms. Panagiotou's
attempt to present the referring passages as referring to northern Hellenic dialect falls of convincing.

Now to move on forward. In Ancient Texts there are various verbs for describing different cultural forms and their specific languages. For example, one can find multiple documents that use the verb ελληνιζω which was used to describe some one who is “Greek Speaking”.

The verb on it self is constructed out of the noun Έλλην and Ending -ιζο
In „Griechisches etymologisches Wörterbuch / von Hjalmar Frisk . – Heidelberg“ Word ελληνιζω is translated as „Greek Speaking“ .

Later derivation form this verb is the noun ελληνισμος translated as “Greek way of expression, talking”.
Other than the above mentioned ελληνιζω verb, in similar way how the noun ελληνισμος was constructed, there were also other nouns construction , such as αττικισμος which meant „Attic way of expression, talking“.

It is important to make it clear that there were no such verb as αττικιζω or τεσσαλιζω, but only the one and only verb ελληνιζω, contrary to the nouns built with the –ισμος ending.

And there we come to the point.
There is for example the verb θρακιζω which meant „Thracian Speaking“, and of course there was the verb μακεδονιζω which of course means „Macedonian Speaking“ .

To get it straight out:

ελληνιζω > Greek Speaking
γραικιζω > Greek Speaking
θρακιζω> Thracian Speaking
ιλλυριζω > Speak the Illyrian language
περσιζω > in the Persian tongue
present also as Adjective
περσιστι > persian speaking
φρύγιζω > to be like the Phrygians
but φρύγιζω τη φωνη > to use Phrygian words, tongue
present Adjective as φρύγιστι > Phrygian speaking


μακεδονιζω > Macedonian Speaking


Arian used the word in the following way: μακεδονιζων τη φωνη
Plutarch used it in the Biography of Mark Antony as following: μακεδονιζειν(obvious Gramatical change form from μακεδονιζω) as well in the Bibliography of Eumenes he wrote:μακεδονιστι τη φωνη.

The word φονη actually meant language, as can be seen in the example in the Drama Agamemnon written by Aeschylus where written:
αγνωτα φονην βαρβαρον -> the unknown barbarian language.
The same word for language is written by Xenophon in his Kunegetikos 2.3
where he says: φονην Ηελληνα -> the Hellenic language.


This is the very same words which the Greek Scholars are desperately trying to assign the meaning of „Macedonian way of expression, talking“ and "Sound,Voice", which does not stand the reality, cause the noun to express this is with the ending–ισμος as shown above and φωνη was used for "Language" and not for "Voice".

Because, if we get the Greek Scholars for granted, that the word μακεδονιζω meant „Macedonian way of speaking“ in a manner of in some Greek Dialect, than the verb θρακιζω should be understood as „Thracian way of speaking" in Greek, suggesting that the Thracians spoke some Dialect of Greek, which we all know is not the reality

It is the same with the "μακεδονιζων τη φωνη" which would be translated as "Macedonian speaking language" and not as Macedonian Sounding speach in a manner of some Dialect.

According to Liddell and Scott, the word with this meaning:
Μακεδονιζω > to be on the Macedonian side
used in the works of Plb. 20.5.5, Plu. Alex.30

but
μακεδονιζω > to speak Macedonian
used in: Id.Ant.27, Ath. 3.122a

Hence Adjective
μακεδονιστι > speak in Macedonian language: μακεδονιστι τη φωνη
used in: Plu. Eum. 14

In other words, the Ancient Macedonian spoke their own language, as clearly stated by the Ancient Authors.


references:

A Greek English lexicon / comp. by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott. Rev. and augmented throughout by Henry Stuart Jones . - New (9.) ed., reprint, with a supplement . - Oxford : Clarendon Press , 1968 . - Getr. [Bearb.]

"Griechisches etymologisches Wörterbuch" von Hjalmar Frisk . – Heidelberg
__________________
To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

Last edited by makedonin; 10-13-2008 at 04:53 AM.
makedonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2008, 05:57 AM   #7
Risto the Great
Senior Member
 
Risto the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Colony of Australia
Posts: 14,706
Risto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Well done Makedonin, a very logical analysis.
__________________
Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA

"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Risto the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2008, 12:01 AM   #8
Svoliani
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 93
Svoliani is on a distinguished road
Default

So Ancient Macedonians used to say Kebala and Ancient Greeks used to say Kephale. I say Tomato you say Toemato we must be speaking a different language.
Anyways where does Glava fit in all of this, why dont u say Kebala today??? What happened?
Svoliani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2008, 12:21 AM   #9
Pelister
Senior Member
 
Pelister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,745
Pelister is on a distinguished road
Default

Makedonin.

That is the first time I have read that - and it is truly amazing.

Thanks.
Pelister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2008, 03:24 AM   #10
makedonin
Senior Member
 
makedonin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,668
makedonin is on a distinguished road
Default

No problem Risto and Pelister.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svoliani View Post
Anyways where does Glava fit in all of this, why dont u say Kebala today??? What happened?
Hesychius states:

Ancient Macedonians used also γαβαλαν > gavalan or gabalan for εγκεφαλον > brain , η κεφαλην> the head

how does that fit for you?

In Russian Galava in Macedonian Glava.

The voices "L" and "B" i.e. "V" changed places, which is proven in many Modern Macedonian Instances.

In my eastern Macedonian Dialect I say Pechurki > mushrooms the Miak western Macedonian Dialect Chepurki > mushrooms . The Character "CH" have changed place with the character "P", and this is easy to check!

And for κεβαλη :

The word келав [kelav] means Bald-Head, baldness;. It is apperant that the character "B" in the Ancient Macedonian transformed in to the character "V" as there are many Instances of it inside of the Modern Macedonian dialects.
Some may remark that this word is from the Turkish language, but I would object to it, since it has IE origins. Similar word is attested in the Old German language as kalawa*, kalwa*, Glatze, Kahlheit, kahler Kopf and means Bald Head, baldness. So the Turk word kel which is only one among the words that the Turkish people use for baldness or head can be seen as remains of the Phrygians who flowed in to the Modern Turkish Ethnos.
__________________
To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

Last edited by makedonin; 10-14-2008 at 04:03 AM.
makedonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump