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Old 12-11-2008, 08:59 PM   #11
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Terra,

You are going to believe a map that lists "Bulgarian" right next to "Hellene" ?

The "Hellene" is a Western myth, and use of the term "Bulgarian" to describe Macedonians was British political currency at that time.
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:19 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Interesting topic and information. I would like to see more on the origins of Ataturk and other Turks from Macedonia.

Pelister, would the population of Turks in Macedonia during this period be largely made up of Janissaries and Muslim Macedonians as opposed to Albanians and actual Turks? What are you thoughts?
.

Good question.

In the 15th and 16th centuries, the Jannisseries were almost all Serbian, [and sometimes Macedonian] and almost always Christian, with the exception only of the Bosnians, who converted to Islam but asked for special permission to be allowed to enter the Jannissery Corp. The language of use among the soldiers of the Jannissery corp, at that time was Serbian. There is plenty of evidence for this.

From the 17th century right up to the late 19th century, the Corp was comprised mostly of Albanians.

The Turkish forces in Macedonia was "huge" at this late stage in the game.

The Albanian movements were actually "deserters" from the Turkish army, so they had the numbers, they had the training, and importantly the weapons to do it - which gave them obvious advantages over everyone else.

You know how confusing things can get in that part of the world, and the statistics are usually no clue as to who is there and where they come from or how the identify, but if I was to take a good guess at it from my readings.

About 1/3 of the Turkish forces were actually Albanian (Muslim) and it is my guess that about 1/3 were Macedonian (Muslim) - this number would include many Macedonianized Turks and many Macedonians who had converted to Islam (Torbeshi, Gorani ...etc) - while the rest were ethnic Turks.

Just to give you an idea of how confusing the picture was for Macedonians. The man who led the attack on Gotse Delchev - the commander of the Turkish detachment was actually a class room mate of Gotse's at the Sofia military academy (when Gotze attended it for a short time).
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:42 PM   #13
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Check this out.

London Times, Wednesday September 7th, 1808

"Letters from Albania state, that in the course of last
month very serious disturbances broke out between the
Albanians and Macedonians, during which was exhibited
the horrid spectacle of a sun fighting against his father.|
Much tar-Pacha had the audacity to c-raw his swonff
against his father Ali, the Pacha of Albania. Victor/!
declared in favourot the fa lings of nature; and the|
son, who bad been blinded by ambition, was totally
feared and driven back-to his own territory, notnith4|
standing his being supported by a numerous body of resolute
Macedonians. The father was assisted by the
brave Albanians. The Turkish troops took no part
neither, but remained indifferent spectators of the
bloody encounters."

It is hard to know what the author means, but this could be a case of Macedonian Muslims fighting against Albanians.

Source. This Macedonian blog: http://republic-of-macedonia.jimdo.c...ad-newspapers/

Last edited by Pelister; 12-11-2008 at 09:42 PM. Reason: add text
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:20 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Pelister View Post
.

Good question.

In the 15th and 16th centuries, the Jannisseries were almost all Serbian, [and sometimes Macedonian] and almost always Christian, with the exception only of the Bosnians, who converted to Islam but asked for special permission to be allowed to enter the Jannissery Corp. The language of use among the soldiers of the Jannissery corp, at that time was Serbian. There is plenty of evidence for this.

From the 17th century right up to the late 19th century, the Corp was comprised mostly of Albanians.

The Turkish forces in Macedonia was "huge" at this late stage in the game.

The Albanian movements were actually "deserters" from the Turkish army, so they had the numbers, they had the training, and importantly the weapons to do it - which gave them obvious advantages over everyone else.

You know how confusing things can get in that part of the world, and the statistics are usually no clue as to who is there and where they come from or how the identify, but if I was to take a good guess at it from my readings.

About 1/3 of the Turkish forces were actually Albanian (Muslim) and it is my guess that about 1/3 were Macedonian (Muslim) - this number would include many Macedonianized Turks and many Macedonians who had converted to Islam (Torbeshi, Gorani ...etc) - while the rest were ethnic Turks.

Just to give you an idea of how confusing the picture was for Macedonians. The man who led the attack on Gotse Delchev - the commander of the Turkish detachment was actually a class room mate of Gotse's at the Sofia military academy (when Gotze attended it for a short time).
Thanks Pelister, that is some interesting information. Thinking of the whole Ottoman picture collectively, with regard to the Christian populations in the Balkans, it would seem that the Serbs, Albanians and Greeks were the greatest Turkish servants, and indeed aided the Turk in his objective of maintaining control of SE Europe.
  • Serbs entering the elite ranks of the Ottoman military en masse voluntarily and via the Janissary corps
  • Albanians offering their services as sellouts to their faith and rag-tag mercenaries that were sent into villages to complete 'mop up' operations involving the burning of villages, rape and murder of villagers
  • Greeks betraying all other Christians by manipulating the Orthodox Church to their advantage through their cosy friendship with their Turkish masters.........

Apparently all big patriotic nations today.....
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:35 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Daskalot View Post
nice map TerraNova, very colorful. Do you agree that about 25% if not less was inhabited by "Greeks" in what is now the three Prefectures of East-, Central- and West Macedonia in the Hellenic Republic.

Wasn't Macedonia Greek as according to your state sponsored propaganda? It looks mostly to be inhabited by Muslims(Turks) and Exarchists(Bulgars).

So are they the real descendants of Megas Alexandros? Or are the imported Christian Turks the real ones?

Thank you for showing the world that MACEDONIA WAS NEVER GREEK, IDENTITY THEFT IS A CRIME!

By the way did you notice all the Albanians living on the Ionic coast and all the Vlachs living in the Pindus and not to forget the Turks in Thessaly, are all of these peoples exterminated today?

And not to forget the Turks and Pomaks of Thrace, are they recognized minorities in Greece? This map clearly shows where they lived in 1877 and still live today. So is Turk and Pomak recognized ETHNIC DESCRIPTORS IN Ellada file mou?

This map is so great it perfectly shows the Greek MYTH of Macedonia.


I will be awaiting your answer.
The map wasn't to prove anything about Macedonia, but to lighten up a bit the question about "Turks" "Albanians" and "Muslim Macedonians" in Macedonia region.

I would add that apart from the original Turks who migrated after 14th century to the whole region,from time to time as "Turks" were considered the muslim Greeks (Vallaades -in Aliakmon valley-Grevena)exchanged in 1923 as "Turks", the Pomaks(Muslim Bulgarians) and Muslim Macedonians of Karajova.

Do you really want to mix things up once again...about who was majority,and why there arent Macedonians in the map,and about Greeks...and and so on....and destroy the thread ??
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:29 AM   #16
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Sir I know exactly why you posted this map.

We appear as "Bulgars" apparently, why? The composer of this map might have had a pro-Bulgar bias.

But the interesting thing is that it shows "Greeks" as a clear minority in the part of Macedonia that was incorporated into the Hellenic Kingdom with the use of force, some would call that an occupation.

Thus the Greek myth about Macedonia is exactly that, a MYTH.


It is good to see that you at least recognize the label "Turk" as a religious label and not an Ethnic one, now apply the same to the religious label of "Greek" and we are about to have a nice and fulfilling debate.
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:44 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Daskalot View Post
Sir I know exactly why you posted this map.

We appear as "Bulgars" apparently, why? The composer of this map might have had a pro-Bulgar bias.

But the interesting thing is that it shows "Greeks" as a clear minority in the part of Macedonia that was incorporated into the Hellenic Kingdom with the use of force, some would call that an occupation.

Thus the Greek myth about Macedonia is exactly that, a MYTH.
Daskalot...i posted this map,because it has a dual distinction-Ethnicity and Religion.
So Turks are distinguished from non-turkish speaking Muslims.

If i wanted to show a map were Macedonians appear as Bulgarians i could post some 40 different other maps!
Am i clear?

As for who was who minority ...compare "Bulgarians" and Greeks....(note that according to 1919 Neiully Treaty almost all Kilkis and Serres Exarchists were exchanged with Greeks of Black coast and Eastern Rumelia.)
So what's left..?
Are we looking at the same image??


Last edited by TerraNova; 12-12-2008 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 12-12-2008, 12:08 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Giorikas View Post
Kindly point out where the Macedonians are ... You all seem to talk about anything and anybody but Macedonians. Whoever thinks Ataturk was Macedonian is ever more insane then I could image. Right of self identification ...? Wasn't that the magical word here ?

Attaturk cannot be pure Macedonian, it has to be noted that many Turks had non Turkish mothers (Christian mothers).
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:00 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Thanks Pelister, that is some interesting information. Thinking of the whole Ottoman picture collectively, with regard to the Christian populations in the Balkans, it would seem that the Serbs, Albanians and Greeks were the greatest Turkish servants, and indeed aided the Turk in his objective of maintaining control of SE Europe.
  • Serbs entering the elite ranks of the Ottoman military en masse voluntarily and via the Janissary corps
  • Albanians offering their services as sellouts to their faith and rag-tag mercenaries that were sent into villages to complete 'mop up' operations involving the burning of villages, rape and murder of villagers
  • Greeks betraying all other Christians by manipulating the Orthodox Church to their advantage through their cosy friendship with their Turkish masters.........

Apparently all big patriotic nations today.....
The Serbs were subjects of the Ottomans - they had been conquered but were not beaten.

They were good fighters, so naturally the Ottomans relied heavily on them.

Actually, in all my reading over the centuries I don't think I have come across any clear Greeks in the Ottoman military ranks.

In the 17th century the Ottomans put down a rebellion in the Peloponese and Attica, but it was a Slavic speaking tribe, and Albanians they were fighting.

Some Serbs (there are a few in the 15th and 16th centuries, who rose to the highest position in the Empire, that of Grand Vizier, second only to the Sultan himself, never forgot their roots and were actually in a position to help their own people (which they did).
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraNova View Post
Daskalot...i posted this map,because it has a dual distinction-Ethnicity and Religion.
So Turks are distinguished from non-turkish speaking Muslims.

If i wanted to show a map were Macedonians appear as Bulgarians i could post some 40 different other maps!
Am i clear?

As for who was who minority ...compare "Bulgarians" and Greeks....(note that according to 1919 Neiully Treaty almost all Kilkis and Serres Exarchists were exchanged with Greeks of Black coast and Eastern Rumelia.)
So what's left..?
Are we looking at the same image??

I see that you are applying the current borders of the socalled "province" of Macedonia, they were not the borders of Macedonia as of according to the Macedonians themselves.

Here is a map made by the Macedonians in 1913, and you will notice that the Vlach and Arvanite inhabited part of Katherini is not included.




CLICK HERE TO VIEW A LARGE VERSION OF KARTA MAKEDONIIA 1913
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