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Old 04-22-2017, 07:40 AM   #21
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Vlach katuns in medieval Herzegovina
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Old 04-24-2017, 06:43 AM   #22
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Article in today's Dnevnik referring to 'new' IGENEA research showing Macedonians are 4% related to Slavs and 30% related to the 'indigenous ancient' population

http://www.dnevnik.mk/?ItemID=63186B...8B8A28B90CF394
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:15 AM   #23
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:12 PM   #24
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Book review: ''Esad Kurtovic, The Bobani Vlachs''; Dubrovnik Annals 18 (2014),

URL:
http://www.academia.edu/11944004/Boo...nnals_18_2014_

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Old 06-24-2017, 08:45 PM   #25
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The End of the Ancient World, By Ferdinand Lot - Pg. 273:

"Further, Latin Illyria, thirty years after Justinian's death, was submerged by the Slavs, and the fragments of the Illyrian populations who still spoke the lingua Romana, whence sprang Vlak, the Roumanian-Macedonian language, were reduced to wandering shepherds or else pushed back towards the coast. The coast towns, Durazzo, Spalato-Salona, and Ragusa, up to the fifteenth century, kept the use of a language sprung from Latin and later from Venetian."
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Old 07-09-2017, 05:18 PM   #26
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Here is what Strabo tells us about the people living north of Greece:

''They gave the name of Upper Macedonia to the country about Lyncestis, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimia. Later writers called it Macedonia the Free, and some extend the name of Macedonia to all the country as far as Corcyra, at the same time assigning as their reasons, the mode of cutting their hair, their language, the use of the chlamys, and similar things in which they resemble the Macedonians''

So the language and culture of Macedonia and Epirus were the same.

Strabo calls the Pelagonians a ''Molossian tribe''.
(The Molossians were an Epirote tribe and the Pelagonians were part of the ''Paeonian group'' of tribes).

From the Balkan peoples the Paeonians were culturally the closest to the Phrygians. And during the campaign of Alexander the great the Phrygians are described to be the same as the Macedonians.
So the circle is complete!

There is also evidence that the Messapians of south Italy originated from the Chaonians, so it seems they were of Brygian origin too.

The Brygian speaking population in the Kingdom of Macedonia quickly became Macedonians because of their same ethnicity. This was probably made easier because of the great fame that the Macedonians enjoyed.
And this is how the boundaries of the modern region of Macedonia were formed. Macedonia is entirely on Brygian land and the Macedonians never forgot who they were despite of the language changes that occurred.

The situation in Epirus was much different.
During the late period of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) empire the Albanians were re-settled from their original homeland to Epirus and South Illyria.
All the sources from that time tell us that the Albanians became the majority in Epirus.
The Greeks started settling in Epirus after the formation of the Latin empire in 1204.

…the fall of Constantinople to the Franks on 13 April 1204 and the subsequent creation of the state of Epirus by Michael I Komnenos Angelos Doukas (1205-ca.1215) made it a destination for a lot of Greeks who wished to escape Latin rule… So our sources mention this influx of refugees, coming from Constantinople. Demetrios Chomatenos, archbishop of Ohrid, says that half at least of the refugees from Constantinople found asylum in Epirus… Theodoros Chamaretos, a Greek lord in the Peloponnese, fled to Epirus, and wrote to the father of his wife that she could come and join him, since Epirus was ''full of countless refugees from the Peloponnese, many of them persons of rank and wealth, and the lady would certainly find herself among friends and compatriots''. This influx of Greek refugees continued throughout the century: even after 1261 and the restoration of Constantinople by the Emperor of Nicaea, Michael VIII Palaeologos. Epirus and Thessaly welcomed political or religious refugees fleeing from the Byzantine court…

The most noble of the refugees, coming from Constantinople or from other places, seem to have found a place in Ioannina, where the castle was created specially for them by Michael. This city, quoted by John Apokaukos as a πολίδιον, that is a ''small city'', became a new Noah’s Ark for the Greek refugees.

Ioannina and Arta, located on the fringes of historic Epirus, were established religious, administrative, and commercial centers and would explain why they would be attractive for refugees from the east. The flow from the east would also explain why the Greek element in these centers has been relatively stronger historically, as opposed to the rest of Epirus.

Anonymous Panegyric of Emperors Manuel and John VIII Paleologos, clearly describes the cities of Arta and Ioannina as peopled by Greeks, while the Albanians occupy the rest of Epirus. This was also the case during Turkish rule.

Anthony Trollope writes:
''The main authority is in the hands of the Turks, who stand in the castle together with the Jews - the latter, all over Turkey, are the greatest proponents of Ottoman rule, but the most powerful and largest race in the province are Albanians, who quite often are wrongly taken as Greeks''.



After 1913 a part of the albanian population was expelled from Epirus and replaced by Greek speakers from Asia minor (just like the situation with the Macedonians), and the rest were absorbed by the Greeks because of the same orthodox faith.

Neither the Greeks or Albanians are related to the ancient population of Epirus, but if we should choose who has more right to the land then it's the Albanians.

The reason why I went on about Eprirus is to reveal that we Macedonians are the last Brygian people.

Last edited by Stefan of Pelagonia; 09-19-2017 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:20 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphipolis View Post
All I know is that R1a is the “Polish-Russian” haplogroup.

The overall percentage in Greece is correct (around 9%) but the coloring of local areas is problematic. It is statistically impossible to have 23% in Rethymno, 20% in Lasithi and 0% in Heraclion, especially since Heraclion (like Athens) attracts population from everywhere. Scientists should take a deeper look at this. I see the potential for a huge discovery. Maybe there’s a germ over there that’s killing the R1a gene.
R1a is also linked with earlier civilizations from as early as Bronze Age.

However, almost all the I2a2 and the R1a in Greece is of Slavic origin, which is about 20-21%. Of course Slavs aren't pure I2a2 + R1a. They also carry other haplogroups that can easily be mistaken for native Greek, like E-V13, G2a, J2a, J2b, R1b-L23... So in all likelihood 21% is an underestimate. 25 to 28% is more realistic. That's about the same amount of (Proto-)Slavic Y-DNA as in Austria or East Germany. One country doesn't need to be linguistically or culturally Slavic to have substantial Slavic admixture.

34% of I2a2+R1a for northern Greece, so maybe about 40-45% in total Slavic admixture. Just a bit less than Bulgaria and Macedonia. It's true that Heraclides 2017's paper on Cyprus gives 39% of I2+R1a for Greek Thrace.

In contrast, I2a2+R1a is 16% in Crete, 13% in the Cyclades, and only 6.5% among Greek Cypriots.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

Last edited by tchaiku; 10-26-2017 at 11:47 AM. Reason: I2a2 mistaken for I2a1
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Old 10-26-2017, 08:51 PM   #28
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It's important not to forget that Y-DNA is paternally inherited (i.e from the father) therefore it is more biased for indicating invader ancestry. Mitochondrial DNA has a similar flaw being that it is only maternally inherited, that being paired with the fact that historically women typically intermixed more than men, also points to flaws with using mtDNA in this regard.

For these reasons along with others, people generally think it is the best to go with autosomal DNA, which at this stage its best purpose would be PCA (Principle Compenent Analysis) to determine which nations genetically 'cluster' together. For example:

https://images.nature.com/full/natur...07331-f1.2.jpg

But it seems that some Balkan countries at this stage still have poor sample sizes, such as Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria:
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/HLA..._country.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/HLA..._country.shtml

Also Greece, while having a large sample size, is not partitioned into north, central, ect unlike with the Y-DNA studies. Therefore at this stage, I wouldn't take this autosomal stuff for the Balkans too seriously. In the future I think we may get interesting results as the sample sizes increase and if Greece has regional based data (don't think it would for obvious reasons)
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:47 PM   #29
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Albanians flooded the Peloponnese with their whole families after the Black Death wiped about the half (or more) of Peloponnese population. They had like 30,000 men of army in 15th century.
Ev-13 peaks in Peloponnese and in Albanians (similar sub-haplogroups too). Slavs who ruled Peloponnese for 218 were predominately I2a2 and R1a, Mycenaeans were enriched with J2a (J2 in Peloponnese is J2b, again similar to Albanians) and other Anatolian haplogroups. The only ones which we have no information are the Dorians.

Ancient DNA of Athens, Sparta, Thebes with clarify a lot for Ionians, Dorians and Aeolians.

Last edited by tchaiku; 10-30-2017 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:04 PM   #30
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