Origins of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg

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  • Epirot
    Member
    • Mar 2010
    • 399

    #46
    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    Epirot, I was waiting for the links but now realise that was the link that Struja referred to. The English interpretation of that extract by Struja was quite correct, the author said there was some criminal running around Kosovo THEREFORE there was always a presence. It was a very basic and silly statement from the author unless he had more evidence he was referring to in preceding paragraphs.

    I was looking for actual Turkish chronicles. Because I am positive the Balkans was a very different place before the Albanians of the north converted to Islam. And since it was about 2/3 of all Albanians, one can assume many Albanians had new freedoms that very few Christians in the Balkans shared. They had what you might call an unfair advantage. How do you think they used their religious conversions for their benefit?
    Risto, you're going to exaggerate somewhat the so-called 'benefitions' of Allbanians by the Turks. Only a few of people gained high position in gendarmerie or political structures of Ottoman Empire. However it is noteworthy to mention that everyone who admitted to be under Sultan's formal soverginity could benefit some 'privilegies'. And don't assume that Albanians were the only people in Balkan that were converted in Islam. There were also a Slavic tribes who became muslimanized (like Bosniaks, Torbeshs, Pomaks, etc).

    So the Myth of 'Albanian-Ottoman cooperation' is broken out since it is enhanced by Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek propaganda who are interested to show Albanians as lapdogs of Ottomans, whilst in other hand, they are making a new fake profile of them of allegedly enemies of Ottoman Empire. But, you know that Slavs or Greeks were the first people who officially gained more political rights (such as opening of new schools in their respective tongue), freedom of establishing their churches and monasteries, etc, etc.

    Albanians did their best to liberate themselves from Ottoman Yoke. Furthermore, Albanians were considered by Western Powers as a chief factor to destroy Ottoman rule in Balkan. Many meetings of Balkan allies (against Ottoman invasion) were held in Albania (in period of Austria incursions in Balkan XVI-XVII). This speaks in favour of my above statement that Albanians were a warlike Anti-Ottoman force.
    IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      #47
      Epirot, even many Turks suffered under the Ottoman rule so I do not think I am exaggerating the benefits of Islam. I am sure you would agree that (at almost 70% conversion rate) Albanians converted to Islam more than any other ethnicity in the Balkans. This conversion provided benefits to them, there is no doubt.

      Infidels were given 3 options:
      - Convert
      - Pay tributes (taxes)
      - Go to war

      The Pact of Omar surely must have inspired the warrior like Albanians to revolt:

      The Christians will not:

      1. Build “a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk”;
      2. “Restore any place of worship that needs restoration”;
      3. Use such places “for the purpose of enmity against Muslims”;
      4. “Allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims”;
      5. Imitate the Muslims’ “clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names”;
      6. “Ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons”;
      7. “Encrypt our stamps in Arabic”
      8. “Sell liquor” – Christians in Iraq in the last few years ran afoul of Muslims reasserting this rule;
      9. “Teach our children the Qur’an”;
      10. “Publicize practices of Shirk” – that is, associating partners with Allah, such as regarding Jesus as Son of God. In other words, Christian and other non-Muslim religious practice will be private, if not downright furtive;
      11. Build “crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets” – again, Christian worship must not be public, where Muslims can see it and become annoyed;
      12. “Sound the bells in our churches, except discreetly, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets”;
      13. “Bury our dead next to Muslim dead”;
      14. “Buy servants who were captured by Muslims”;
      15. “Invite anyone to Shirk” – that is, proselytize, although the Christians also agree not to:
      16. “Prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so.” Thus the Christians can be the objects of proselytizing, but must not engage in it themselves;
      17. “Beat any Muslim.”

      Meanwhile, the Christians will:

      1. Allow Muslims to rest “in our churches whether they come by day or night”;
      2. “Open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby”;
      3. Provide board and food for “those Muslims who come as guests” for three days;
      4. “Respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them” – shades of Jim Crow;
      5. “Have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist” – these are so that a Muslim recognizes a non-Muslim as such and doesn’t make the mistake of greeting him with As-salaamu aleikum, “Peace be upon you,” which is the Muslim greeting for a fellow Muslim;
      6. “Be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.”

      The Christians swore: “If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.”
      So why did the Albanians convert en masse? One author has suggested because they lacked nationalistic and religious consciousness. I think the better reason might come from the following quote by Midhat Frasheri:

      They said to the Albanian ... "Will you go to hell?" The Albanian replied ... "How much is the salary?"
      In The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present By Edwin E. Jacques, we see the following quote from Sami Bey Frasheri:
      "Albania in Turkish times became richer and wealthier than ever"
      This was hardly the case with any other ethnicities in the Balkans. I think you might be understating the benefits of the close association between the Arnauts and the Turks.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • osiris
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1969

        #48
        there is not doubt there were substantial benefits and its actually true that the turks unlike he arabs were reluctant to convert as it slashed their tax base.

        Comment

        • Prolet
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2009
          • 5241

          #49
          Risto, According to Menduh Tachi 99% of Albanians in Macedonia are Muslims, Im not sure about Kosovo but the figure would be quite large.
          МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

          Comment

          • Struja
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 206

            #50
            Originally posted by Epirot View Post
            Struja, Alain Ducellier when say that there is no evidence of a massive immigration of Albanians to Kosova, do not base his opinion by mentioning the fact of a rebelious group in Tetova!
            Please, read him at all and do not twist his words. He enumerated a couple of important facts indicating Albanians presence in Kosova throughout all times.

            Epirot, I haven’t twisted anything around and for the record their not facts but opinions from other sources/footnotes suggesting the same conclusion without any hard evidence (on page 34, Alain writes: Because there is no record of any massive migration of Albanians towards Kosovo before the sixteenth century, we must conclude that a good part of Kosovo Albanians element has its roots in the ancient Illyro-Albanian population.) If you agree with Alain Duceellie and his work then all I can say is good luck to you...


            Here’s the correct quote:
            Originally posted by Alain Duceellie
            As for Ottoman chronicles, they always mention Albanians in Kosova, including one written in 1467 that witnesses the 'rebels' pillaging livestock in the region of Tetova, under the leadership of a 'traitor' indentified as Iskender.
            It is therefore evident that a sizable Albanian population was in Kosova before the Ottoman conquest and there is no evidence of a massive immigration to Kosova.
            Last edited by Struja; 03-18-2010, 11:45 PM.

            Comment

            • osiris
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1969

              #51
              what about the albanians who migrated there after the second world war.

              Comment

              • Epirot
                Member
                • Mar 2010
                • 399

                #52
                Originally posted by osiris View Post
                what about the albanians who migrated there after the second world war.
                Show me just a single reference of any migration of Albanians after WWII there?
                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                Comment

                • Epirot
                  Member
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 399

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                  One author has suggested because they lacked nationalistic and religious consciousness.

                  In The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present By Edwin E. Jacques, we see the following quote from Sami Bey Frasheri:
                  Because of their lacked religious consciousness and not of lacked nationalistic one. Albanians provided their national consciousness during Scanderbeg epoch and after it.

                  I think that one of the reasons that Albanians did converted in Islam was because they did not care about any religion. In essence, Albanians are the most atheistic people in the world.

                  The cited quote of Sami Frashëri says nothing, because it was written when Frashëri held some formal sympaties to the Ottoman authorities. But later, Sami Frasheri denounced Ottoman Empire as a Suppressor of the Albanians who was responsable of political and economical backward state of Albanians.
                  IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                    Because of their lacked religious consciousness and not of lacked nationalistic one. Albanians provided their national consciousness during Scanderbeg epoch and after it.
                    Albanians and Macedonians have lived together and fought side by side in many ways through our history Epirot. No need to get too defensive.

                    I am interested in Kastriot's national consciousness. What definitive information do you have about him? His mother's name is very Slavic sounding. His Father could have been anything to be honest.

                    I must say, many Albanians had quite glorious roles throughout history and deserve their fame. So please don't think this is an exercise in attacking Albanians.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Bill77
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 4545

                      #55
                      Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                      Show me just a single reference of any migration of Albanians after WWII there?
                      Not sure if this is any help. And hope we are talking about Kosovo migration/invasion, depends how you want to look at it.

                      Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo: An Abbreviated History
                      An Opening for the The Islamic Jihad in Europe

                      G. Richard Jansen
                      Colorado State University
                      Fort Collins CO 80523
                      April 25, 1999, Updated July 22, 2008


                      World War II

                      Albania was occupied by Italian forces in April 1939. Greece was attacked by Italy in November 1940, but a bloody stalemate resulted that ultimately required German assistance. Rumania joined the Axis in November 1940, and Bulgaria in March 1941. The Yugoslav government was coerced into also joining the Tripartite Pact (Germany, Italy and Japan) on March 25, 1941 followed two days later by an anti-axis coup which Hitler did not later forget. Germany invaded Yugoslavia April 6, and by April 17 formal resistance by the Yugoslav army had collapsed. Croatia, including Bosnia-Herzegovina, became a Fascist state allied with Germany and which killed and persecuted thousands of Serbs. Slovenia was annexed to Italy and Montenegro was occupied by Italian forces. Serbia, Macedonia and Greece were occupied by Germany. The Yugoslav and Greek campaigns required 27 German divisions. Most of Kosovo was occupied by Albania except for the important mining region which remained under German control.

                      Resistance to German occupation was fierce and took place primarily under the Loyalist Chetnicks under the command of General Mihailovic and the Partisans under the command of the head of the Communist Party Josip Broz, a Croat, later known as Marshall Tito. In 1943 the British Government withdrew support from Mihailovic and threw all it's support in increasing amounts to Tito and the communists. This enabled Tito to fight both the Germans and Mihailovic and the Loyalists thus consolidating post-war communist rule over Yugoslavia. The Serbian guerilla resistance required, at it's peak, 700,000 German soldiers for it to be controlled by Germany.. In Kosovo, under Albanian and German rule nearly 100,000 Albanians moved into Kosovo. Serbs were harassed and attacked by the occupying force of Albanians.


                      Post-War Yugoslavia
                      After the war, thousands of Serbs and Montenegrins were prohibited from returning to Kosovo, and thousands of Albanians immigrated into Kosovo.



                      PS; sory i had to hilight the Macedonia bit. Evan though it has nothing to do with your question. I'm a show off

                      Ohh his one more for the road,
                      The 1946 Yugoslav constitution did not grant territorial autonomy to Kosovo, nor did it grant Albanian status as a recognized nationality. Five nationalities were recognized within the Yugoslav Federation; Serb, Croat, Slovene, Montenegrin and Macedonian. Albanian was not one of them.

                      http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #56
                        My goodness, if Albanians were not recognised as an ethnicity in Yugoslavia, that would have been mind numbingly stupid. They were obviously there. Is there a distinction between nationality and ethnicity Bill?

                        Kosovo is a separate issue. There looks as though there were hardly any Albanians there in the 14th century. Yet they were the majority after a couple of centuries of Ottoman rule.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Bill77
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 4545

                          #57
                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          My goodness, if Albanians were not recognised as an ethnicity in Yugoslavia, that would have been mind numbingly stupid. They were obviously there. Is there a distinction between nationality and ethnicity Bill?

                          Kosovo is a separate issue. There looks as though there were hardly any Albanians there in the 14th century. Yet they were the majority after a couple of centuries of Ottoman rule.
                          I understood nationality and ethnicity to mean the same. I am asuming we were recognised due to Historical facts not only as a Ethnicity, But Land wise. Where as in the Albanian case, the Serbs truely believe historicly kosovo belonged to Serbia. Kind of the senario of what the Greeks are doing now.

                          I realy don't know much about Kosovo's history so i can't realy comment much more.
                          http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                          Comment

                          • Struja
                            Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 206

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                            My goodness, if Albanians were not recognised as an ethnicity in Yugoslavia, that would have been mind numbingly stupid. They were obviously there. Is there a distinction between nationality and ethnicity Bill?.
                            dude

                            Albanian wasn’t recognised until in 1974 that’s when Yugoslavia upgraded its constitution: The new two provinces of Vojvodina and Kosovo-Metohija were added and granted them greater autonomy to the point that Albanian and Hungarian became nationally recognised minority languages and the Serbo-Croat of Bosnia and Montenegro altered to a form based on the speech of the local people and not on the standards of Zagreb and Belgrade. In Slovenia they recognized the Hungarians and Italians.

                            Comment

                            • Struja
                              Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 206

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                              Kosovo is a separate issue. There looks as though there were hardly any Albanians there in the 14th century. Yet they were the majority after a couple of centuries of Ottoman rule.

                              We do have some data to highlight the population in Tetovo in 1452. According to Ottomans Defter in the region of Kalkandelen there were no Albanians in Tetovo.

                              Now I'm wondering if that was the same for Kosovo?


                              Originally posted by Colonisation and Islamicisation
                              The nineteenth century historian M. Tozer claims that the earliest Muslim colonisers came from the Saruhan district in Turkey in the late fourteenth century, and, accompanied by Ottoman troops, settled in the cities and large towns throughout the land. Confirmation of the colonising process is evident through an examination of Turkish documents. Muslim communities based in urban centres were visible in the fifteenth century, and their numbers rapidly increased during the course of the sixteenth century. In Tetovo in 1452 there were 146 Christian families to 60 Muslim families. By the middle of the sixteenth century (in 1545), the number of Christian families had shrunk to 99, whilst the Muslim element increased to 101 (38 were Islamicised Macedonian Christian). Twenty-three years later, in 1568, there were 108 Christian and 329 Muslim families (184 were Islamicised Macedonian Christians)

                              Comment

                              • sf.
                                Member
                                • Jan 2010
                                • 387

                                #60
                                Five nationalities were recognized within the Yugoslav Federation; Serb, Croat, Slovene, Montenegrin and Macedonian. Albanian was not one of them.
                                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                                My goodness, if Albanians were not recognised as an ethnicity in Yugoslavia, that would have been mind numbingly stupid. They were obviously there. Is there a distinction between nationality and ethnicity Bill?

                                There's generally some confusion about the terms used. The Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Bosnians, Slovenes and Montenegrins were treated as nations (narodi). Think of it as sovereign lands belonging to the listed peoples that populated/owned them.

                                The Albanians, Hungarians and others were declared nationalities (narodnosti). Think of this term as meaning ethnicity, i.e. being a people that do not have a nation within Yugoslavia (obviously their nations/states were external).

                                narod literally translated means '[a] people.'
                                narodnost could be cruedly translated as 'belonging to a people' or 'people-like / nation-like.' It doesn't sound quite right in English, but you get the gist.
                                Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

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