Why are we continuing this stupid American-Australian split?
John Bitove
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Originally posted by Buktop View PostWhy are we continuing this stupid American-Australian split?
For the record, I don't see this debate as a contest between American Macedonians and Australian Macedonians. However, it does seem that the loyalty of some Macedonians to the USA, which heavily interferes in Macedonian internal affairs in pursuit of its own strategic interests (as it does in many other countries' internal affairs), does often compromise their perspective and stand on the Macedonian cause. I think that the best way to deal with that unfortunate conflict of loyalties is to have an overriding commitment to universal principles of justice and human rights and freedoms, and to be willing to uncompromisingly defend those principles against ANY state, whether it be Canada, the USA or the Republic of Macedonia.
My country right or wrong; when right, to keep her right; when wrong, to put her right. Carl SchurzAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn
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Originally posted by aleksandrov View PostTom,
Bitov did not only fund, but also effectively led the Gligorov-backed alternative Congress. This is a well known fact to anybody who was involved in Macedonian affairs at the time.
I attended the first general meeting of the World Macedonian Congress (led by Todor Petrov) in Skopje, as a delegate, and then the first general meeting of the Macedonian World Congress (led by Bitov) in Ohrid, as a newspaper reporter, within a matter of weeks (in 1993). At the Bitov Congress' general meeting, there was a heated debate about whether the two groups should unite into one congress. Bitov was aggressively opposed to this idea, claiming that the Petrov congress is an extremist organization that interferes in the internal political affairs of the Republic of Macedonia. He made reference to our firm opposition to the 'Slavist' version of Macedonian history and our opposition to negotiations about changing the Macedonian flag, name and constitution, to our allegedly 'extremist' claims to ancient Macedonian ancestry, and to our position that Macedonia should remain a unitary state, rather than move towards ethnic segregation and de facto federation between extremist Albanians on one side and everybody else on the other. When a vote was taken on whether the two Congress groups should unite, the pro-unification group had one vote more, but the chair declared it the other way around. Requests for a recount or poll were not fulfilled.
In the period leading up to the first general meetings of the two Congress groups, there was a vicious media campaign in Macedonia (almost all of the media was controlled by the Gligorov/Crvenkovski regime) to discredit the Petrov-led World Macedonian Congress as an extremist group. Ljubomir Frckovski, who was Interior Minister at the time, held a speech in the parliament in which he labelled the WMC as a 'fascist' group and called for it to be outlawed. The coordination between the Gligorov/Crvenkovski regime and Bitov's group in attempting to undermine and destroy the WMC initiative was more than obvious. Only those who weren't involved in Macedonian affairs at the time and have not done their research could suggest otherwise.
The Bitov Congress died soon after, due to a split within Bitov's own inner circle, over his attempts to take over the MILS information service, which was established by Bitov's Australian associates.
According to his own former admissions, prior to forming his Gligorov support group, Bitov was a staunch MPO supporter. It has publicly been alleged that he was once secretary to the infamous Ivan/Vancho Mihajlov (the self-declared saviour of the Macedonian Bulgarians, and ideologue of the MPO), and I don't believe Bitov has ever denied this. Perhaps those who know him better have something to say about this claim?
Having said all that, Bitov has apparently changed a lot of his contentious views over the years. For one, he apparently no longer thinks that it is extreme for modern Macedonians to identify with the ancient Macedonians as their ancestors. Unfortunately, he and some of his supporters still seem to suffer from the arrogance that repeatedly makes him dismissive of people who are a step of two ahead of him in relation to internal and external obstacles to the Macedonian cause. That's a great tragedy. If he showed a greater propensity to learn from his mistakes and not repeat them, his wealth, business acumen and political and economic influence in North America could be of immense benefit to the Macedonian cause.
And as well as Mils, do you remember THAT Ilinden Foundation and who was behind that?
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Originally posted by Rogi View PostWhich half?МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.
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Originally posted by ZAS View PostCan you tell us who Bitoves Oz associates were?
And as well as Mils, do you remember THAT Ilinden Foundation and who was behind that?All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn
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ZAS, What Ilinden Foundation?МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.
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Originally posted by aleksandrov View PostI think you should ask Gore na Nitche that question. He is the one who entered a very specific discussion about the role of Bitov (a Canadian Macedonian) in Macedonian affairs by prejudicially stereotyping Australian Macedonians, rather than addressing the relevant facts. It's something that has become quite a trend on the Canadian and American based Maknews forum, whenever somebody from Australia expresses disagreement with Bitov or the UMD (which is apparently a global, rather than American organization).
For the record, I don't see this debate as a contest between American Macedonians and Australian Macedonians. However, it does seem that the loyalty of some Macedonians to the USA, which heavily interferes in Macedonian internal affairs in pursuit of its own strategic interests (as it does in many other countries' internal affairs), does often compromise their perspective and stand on the Macedonian cause. I think that the best way to deal with that unfortunate conflict of loyalties is to have an overriding commitment to universal principles of justice and human rights and freedoms, and to be willing to uncompromisingly defend those principles against ANY state, whether it be Canada, the USA or the Republic of Macedonia.
My country right or wrong; when right, to keep her right; when wrong, to put her right. Carl Schurz
I must disagree with the assessment that Macedonians in North America are overly loyal to the US. I agree that a common binding element is the commitment to universal principles, the problem seems to be that in the face of money, principles seem to be ignored. The "North-American" view is that money is the key to sovereignty and the security of rights. Those who have money are secure, while those who don't are subject to the whims of those who do. This is the perceived reality of the situation. As an economist by trade, I tend to agree with this assessment, as a principled Macedonian I tend to disagree.
The discussion concerning Bitove, from what I understand, concerns his previous opinions and associations being somewhat controversial. I am of the opinion that if a person can change, then I will overlook their previous trespasses. From Bitove's more recent statements a positive trend can be seen, you probably know more about him than I do, so I trust your assessment to be true.
I don't think a negative conclusion can be drawn from Bitove's involvement in Macedonian organizations, and therefor, I don't see the need to criticize it. His previous errors in judgment seem to be rectified, or at least in the process of being rectified.
If I am wrong in my assumptions I trust you will let me know."I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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Buktop,
I highly doubt that you would change your assumptions on anything even if we were to provide evidence - Meto and the UMD are a case in point.
Further, you would do well to take my advice, particularly in relation to point two. As you yourself have stated here, you are torn between "(economic) might is right" and justice and liberty for all. You cannot support both and when you try to you are attempting to be everything to everyone (point three).If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostBuktop,
I highly doubt that you would change your assumptions on anything even if we were to provide evidence - Meto and the UMD are a case in point.
Further, you would do well to take my advice, particularly in relation to point two. As you yourself have stated here, you are torn between "(economic) might is right" and justice and liberty for all. You cannot support both and when you try to you are attempting to be everything to everyone (point three).
I know I cannot support both, that is why I stated that I am torn between the two. I try and reconcile them to the best of my ability. The thing that troubles me is that although I wish to remain principled, the evidence for economic predominance is too blatant to ignore."I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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Originally posted by Buktop View PostYou can doubt what you like, but you should not base your opinion of me on my support of UMD, Meto and UMD are not the subject here, Bitove is and I would like to know if my assessment is correct.
I know I cannot support both, that is why I stated that I am torn between the two. I try and reconcile them to the best of my ability. The thing that troubles me is that although I wish to remain principled, the evidence for economic predominance is too blatant to ignore.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostOver the years, UMD (and Meto in particular) have developed a close relationship with the Bitove family, and especially John Bitove. At Meto's session in Canberra/Queanbeyan on 8 February 2010, he announced that John Bitove would be a special guest at the UMD Global Conference this year.
But who are the Bitove's? A simple Google search is quite revealing and shows a long history of association with the MPO.
I particularly found this document about the "Bulgarians of Greek Macedonia" co-signed by James Bitove (brother of John) quite disturbing:
http://www.makedonskatribuna.com/DISCLOSURE1960.pdf
UMD's continued promotion of MPO-associated individuals is also quite disturbing.Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostOsiris,
Seeing as the Bitove's are supporters of UMD, and financially backed the pro-Gligorov Macedonian World Congress (a cheap and ideologically flawed imitation of Todor Petrov's WMC) in the early 90's, I'm not entirely sure which "cause" they support.Originally posted by amitreski View PostEverything you have said.
This is everything I said, now point out what is incorrect.
Here, Bitove Sr. receives UMD's 1st Lifetime Achievement Award:
More Bitove cooperation:
If you read the bottom right-hand corner of p. 573 (this link should take you straight there), this book confirms John Bitove's funding of the pro-Gligorov WMC (opposing Todor Petrov):
The Australian People documents the dramatic history of Australian settlement and describes the rich ethnic and cultural inheritance of the nation through the contributions of its people. It is one of the largest reference works of its kind, with approximately 250 expert contributors and almost one million words. Profusely illustrated in colour and black and white, the book is both a comprehensive encyclopedia and a survey of the controversial debates about citizenship and multiculturalism now th at Australia has attained the centenary of its federation.A first edition, which appeared in 1988, quickly became recognised as the standard reference and for many smaller ethnic groups the only reliable resource. This new edition incorporates data from the 1996 Census, gives greater weight to immigrants from outside Europe, and provides some fascinating essays on 'Building a Nation' in the final section.This unique reference will appeal to both a general and an academic audience. It will be a lasting resource both within Australia and internationally.
Mitreski,
I'm still waiting for you to point out what was incorrect in my post.Last edited by Vangelovski; 03-03-2010, 08:14 PM.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Buktop View Post...I must disagree with the assessment that Macedonians in North America are overly loyal to the US...All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostBuktop, I don't disagree that economic power certainly helps, however, that does not meant that we live and promote a subservient existence because we lack wealth. In our specific circumstances, I think that 'sacrifice' needs to preceed 'abundance'.
Very true, indeed I believe our wealth is in our steadfastness/unrepentent devotion to our cause, not dollars in the bank!On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"
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Originally posted by aleksandrov View PostI think you should ask Gore na Nitche that question. He is the one who entered a very specific discussion about the role of Bitov (a Canadian Macedonian) in Macedonian affairs by prejudicially stereotyping Australian Macedonians, rather than addressing the relevant facts. It's something that has become quite a trend on the Canadian and American based Maknews forum, whenever somebody from Australia expresses disagreement with Bitov or the UMD (which is apparently a global, rather than American organization).
For the record, I don't see this debate as a contest between American Macedonians and Australian Macedonians. However, it does seem that the loyalty of some Macedonians to the USA, which heavily interferes in Macedonian internal affairs in pursuit of its own strategic interests (as it does in many other countries' internal affairs), does often compromise their perspective and stand on the Macedonian cause. I think that the best way to deal with that unfortunate conflict of loyalties is to have an overriding commitment to universal principles of justice and human rights and freedoms, and to be willing to uncompromisingly defend those principles against ANY state, whether it be Canada, the USA or the Republic of Macedonia.
My country right or wrong; when right, to keep her right; when wrong, to put her right. Carl Schurz
Im just observing and throwing my bit in
I have lived in both North America and Australia. North America has RECOGNIZED Republic of Macedonia, i know some universitys in Canada recognize the Macedonian genocide committed by greece. I know this is because of heavy lobbying by the Bitoves and others. I have had the pleasure of meeting Bitove snr and from what i gathered i hope jnr is just as patriotic.
I also know that Australian Macedonians have to get their head out of their arse and start doing more about Austrailan Macedonian issues. Republic of Macedonia is fyrom down here Alex.
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