Origins of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #31
    Thanks Travolta.
    Do you have any idea how old the songs are?
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #32
      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      Thanks Travolta.
      Do you have any idea how old the songs are?
      And the source that cites them would be useful too.

      Welcome Travolta.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • TRAVOLTA
        Member
        • Nov 2009
        • 504

        #33
        I found it in some slovene forum.here is the link.


        The book about Georgija Kastriot written by Petar Popovski is published these days in Macedonia. It is 1200 pages long (or short) and irrefutabely proofs his Macedonian (Mijak) ethnicity. Original documents...and the texts about him from Italian...and other european historians from his time (15-th century) irrefutably proove his Macedonian origin. Popovski added 20 epic Macedonian songs collected during 19-th century. Parts of two of them are presented in "Vreme. One is the song about the dream of his mother Voislava and the second is the song about Georgija and his wife Marija Andronika.


        There are 20 full songs like these in the book, sung in a western Macedonian (Mijak) dialect. Albanians have none. Georgija Kastriot was IMPOSED in their history, by the Austro-hungarian and Italian politico-historians when Albania was formed in 1912. The father of Georgija --Ivan and Georgija as well , used Cyrilic script, Macedonian language (there are documents), Macedonians have songs about them....no other people in the Balkans have them. So......

        Let's don't sell our history to everybody. I'm really amazed how some Macedonians are still hesitating about the descent of Georgija Kastriot.....All historical documents before the 20-th century irrefutably show that he was not Albanian.

        His brothers: Stanislav, Reposh, Konstantin
        His sisters: Mamica, Elena, Mara

        Here are excerpts of the two songs in western Macedonian dialects:

        A part of the song "The dream of queen Voislava"

        Son sonila Voislava kralica
        son sonila od son se isplasila
        Mi rodila bela luta zmija
        So kriljata Epir pokrivala
        So glavata carigrad dopirala
        Kako zmija glava mu vrtela
        Take zivi Turci mi g'ltala

        Se chudeje epirski vojvodi
        sho je ova chudo nevideno
        Malo kralce, s kruna na cheloto
        Se radveshe Ivanova roda
        Brakja , sestri i si bratuchedi
        Sho se rodi dete zvezdajlija...

        Mu kladoja ime Gospodovo
        Georgija - ime hristijansko
        Makedonsko - slavno biblijansko....

        __________________________________________________ ________
        A small part of the song about the " Beautiful Maria Andronika"


        Ushche zora ne zorila
        Stana Ivan na pot da mi odit
        Mi razbudi sina Georgija
        Si jafnaje svoi brzi konji
        Otidoje vo grada Kanina..

        Zdravo zivo tije si storile
        I na divan skrisno besedeje
        Da se krenat protiv Osmanlii
        Da si vratit zemji porobeni
        Ji sluzese mlada Andronika
        S crno kafe i s luta rakija
        Frli oko Gjorgji na devojka
        Lichna moma kako samovila....

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          #34
          I like your style Travolta.
          Your name on the other hand ... well ... it was pretty good in Pulp Fiction ... but ....

          Welcome.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • TRAVOLTA
            Member
            • Nov 2009
            • 504

            #35
            TNX .....to both administrators for friendly welcome...
            Pulp Fiction

            Comment

            • Pelister
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2742

              #36
              Travolta wrote:

              There are 20 full songs like these in the book, sung in a western Macedonian (Mijak) dialect. Albanians have none. Georgija Kastriot was IMPOSED in their history, by the Austro-hungarian and Italian politico-historians when Albania was formed in 1912.

              This is a really interesting statement. There is so much Macedonian folklore that has been recorded in the 19th century which we do not know about, or ignore or forgotten now. Thanks for bringing this information to light again.
              I can't wait to get my hands on Popovski's book.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #37
                Originally posted by Travolta
                Georgija Kastriot was IMPOSED in their history, by the Austro-hungarian and Italian politico-historians when Albania was formed in 1912.
                I would say that the Skenderbeg myth was imposed earlier than 1912, as was the Illyrian myth.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Epirot
                  Member
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 399

                  #38
                  Have you ever read Marlin Barleti's biography about Scanderbeg?
                  If you did not know, Barleti wrote the main biography about his figure, and all what we know for him derived from his book.
                  In every place, Gjergj Kastrioti felt himself as an Albanian. All of his fighters, commanders were pure of Albanians. No one doubt this and it is simple waste of time debating his nationality.

                  At the end, all Turkish chroniclers regarded him as an Arnaut (i.e ALBANIAN)!
                  IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                  Comment

                  • Epirot
                    Member
                    • Mar 2010
                    • 399

                    #39
                    The helmet och Scanderbeg Skanderbeg's helmet is made of white metal, adorned with a strip dressed in gold. On its top lies the head of a horned goat made of bronze, also dressed in gold. The bottom part bears a copper strip adorned with a monogram separated by rosettes * IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *, which means: Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te (Jesus Nazarene Blesses Thee [Skanderbeg], Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terror of the Ottomans, King of Epirus). Thus the inscriptions on the helmet may refer to the unsettled name by which Albania was known at the time, as a means to identify Skanderbeg's leadership over all Albanians across regional denominative identifications. Turkish: Arnaut, Greek: Arbanas, Arbanensis, Italian: Albanian, Epirotarum, Albanensis, Albanian: Arber, Arberesh, Epirotas.[1]) The first element which commands attention is the meaning and symbolism of the horned goat on the helmet. It is difficult to assess with certainty what the horned goat might signify. It might be explained by the cult of the wild goat, the symbol of the "zana" or goddess "Diana".Note: Dhi-ana; Lady of the Goats in Albanian. The 'Z', 'D', 'Th' shift is vey common like Zeus, Deus, Theos. There are signs indicating that the cult of the wild goat is very ancient. The Roman writer and historian of the I-II century A.D., S. Suetom Tanquilli (De Vita Caesarum, L.II, 12, 94.) writes that the Roman Emperor Augustus, after putting down the Illyrian revolt of Bato, cut a coin bearing the head of a horned goat to celebrate the victory There is another possible explanation with serious historical ramifications. According to a report by historians Kamus-al-Alam maintains that the wording "Dhu lKarnejn" (owner of the two horns) was an appellative attributed to Alexander the Great of Macedon, the very name which Skanderbeg bore This second explanation may be the truer, since the theory of the Macedonian-Albanian and Epirot-Albanian continuance is strong Marin Barleti who writes: "When the people saw all those young and brave men around Skanderbeg, then it was not hard to believe that the armies of [Sultan] Murat were so defeated by the Albanians. Indeed, the times when the star of Macedon shone brilliantly had returned, just as they seemed in those long forgotten times of Pyrrhus and Alexander."
                    dualzone.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, dualzone.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!


                    IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                    • Epirot
                      Member
                      • Mar 2010
                      • 399

                      #40
                      Petar Popovski claim:

                      There are 20 full songs like these in the book, sung in a western Macedonian (Mijak) dialect. Albanians have none. Georgija Kastriot was IMPOSED in their history, by the Austro-hungarian and Italian politico-historians when Albania was formed in 1912.
                      Untrue! The author of such statement seems to ignore all Albanian songs preserved in folklore of Arbëresh community, who are Albanian emmigrants settled in Italy after Scanderbeg's death. They have a lots of songs, legends and traditions relating with Gjergj Kastrioti. You cannot say that to them is imposed by Austro-Hungarian and Italian historians.

                      '...the Great Albanian hero Scanderbeg, whose exploits are still sung over the wintry fire by many a mountain bard...
                      John Castrioti was Prince of the mountain fortress of Kroia and the surrounding country. In 1404 a son was born to him, who was christianed Geore. This was the future hero and deliverer of Albania.

                      Albania: A Narrative of Recent Travel By Edward Frederick Knight

                      http://books.google.com/books?id=rkL...xander&f=false
                      I cited above as a response to the Petar Popovski's claim who absurdly say that Albanians have no traditional folk songs in honor of Scanderbeg.
                      Last edited by Epirot; 03-18-2010, 04:38 AM.
                      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #41
                        Do you have some links from the Turkish chroniclers Epirot?
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Epirot
                          Member
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 399

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          Do you have some links from the Turkish chroniclers Epirot?
                          Sure!

                          As for Ottoman chronicles, they always mention Albanians in Kosova, including one written in 1467 that witnesses the 'rebels' pillaging livestock in the region of Tetova, under the leadership of a 'traitor' indentified as Iskender.
                          BY Alain Ducellier - Modern French historian
                          This book makes the case for the independence of Kosova – the former province of 'old Yugoslavia' and now temporarily a United Nations-led International protectorate – at a time in which international diplomacy is deeply involved in solving the contested issue of its 'Final Status'. Negotiations began in January 2006 under the auspices of a United Nations Special Envoy, and have been given renewed impetus by the international community’s determination to arrive at a solution.' The Case for Kosova' aims to contribute to these negotiations, by providing informed arguments for a different approach to the issue of Kosova's status beyond the limitations of current debates. Its aim is to counteract the anti-Albanian propaganda waged by some parties, but never to propose a counter-propaganda hostile to others or to the goals of a democratic Kosova. Debates on Kosova have largely concentrated on a specific aspect of the issue: either on ideology and myth construction (ignoring translations into practice); on geo-politics (missing the deep implications for stability and security); or on policy (lacking a conceptual understanding of both ideologies and processes). Until now, no book has linked these different fields in a persuasive manner. 'The Case for Kosova' fills this gap with an intellectually challenging and politically relevant commentary from key players in the debate.
                          IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                          Comment

                          • Struja
                            Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 206

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                            As for Ottoman chronicles, they always mention Albanians in Kosova, including one written in 1467 that witnesses the 'rebels' pillaging livestock in the region of Tetova, under the leadership of a 'traitor' indentified as Iskender.

                            BY Alain Ducellier - Modern French historian
                            http://www.google.com/books?id=aNEW0...kender&f=false
                            Interesting!
                            Using your above link Alain Ducellier passes an opinion with: “it is therefore evident that a sizable Albanian population was in Kosova before the Ottoman conquest and there is no evidence of a massive immigration to Kosova”

                            I mean seriously! His evidence is a group of rebels pillaging livestock in the region of Tetovo! With a traitor called Iskender.. lol

                            I’m sorry Epirot but that’s a f’in joke.....
                            Last edited by Struja; 03-18-2010, 11:33 AM.

                            Comment

                            • Epirot
                              Member
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 399

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Struja View Post
                              Interesting!
                              Using your above link Alain Ducellier passes an opinion with: “it is therefore evident that a sizable Albanian population was in Kosova before the Ottoman conquest and there is no evidence of a massive immigration to Kosova”

                              I mean seriously! His evidence is a group of rebels pillaging livestock in the region of Tetovo! With a traitor called Iskender.. lol

                              I’m sorry Epirot but that’s a f’in joke.....
                              Struja, Alain Ducellier when say that there is no evidence of a massive immigration of Albanians to Kosova, do not base his opinion by mentioning the fact of a rebelious group in Tetova!
                              Please, read him at all and do not twist his words. He enumerated a couple of important facts indicating Albanians presence in Kosova throughout all times.
                              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                #45
                                Epirot, I was waiting for the links but now realise that was the link that Struja referred to. The English interpretation of that extract by Struja was quite correct, the author said there was some criminal running around Kosovo THEREFORE there was always a presence. It was a very basic and silly statement from the author unless he had more evidence he was referring to in preceding paragraphs.

                                I was looking for actual Turkish chronicles. Because I am positive the Balkans was a very different place before the Albanians of the north converted to Islam. And since it was about 2/3 of all Albanians, one can assume many Albanians had new freedoms that very few Christians in the Balkans shared. They had what you might call an unfair advantage. How do you think they used their religious conversions for their benefit?
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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