Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Bill77
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 4545

    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    Hate and inajet because we have all the iPhones!
    Oh they have iPhones too. Just don't ask them how they got it.



    Meanwhile..... I'm reading Zaev's latest pitch on changing the Constitution: "Macedonia is getting married into a very rich family"





    We all know what happened to Anna Nicole Smith afterward.
    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

    Comment

    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      Transcript of the Greek government session: The fight with Kamenos over the name - the reason for the resignation of Kotzias

      URL:


      Според транскриптот во кој имал увид грчкиот сајт „Ин“ разговорот течел на следниот начин:

      Панос Каменос: Јас го задржувам моето мислење за името на Македонија. Јас нема да се приклучам на владиниот обид за притисок.

      Никос Коѕиас: Вие се стремите да водите надворешна политика на сметка на владата и земјата, за да им послужи на вашите политички и лични аспирации!

      Панос Каменос: Имаше потврда од Министерството за надворешни работи, дека прашањето за Скопје ќе дојде во парламентот по изборите …

      Никос Коѕиас: Немаше такво нешто. Превземените чекори беа одобрени од страна на премиерот и надлежните органи. Можеби сте пропуштиле некои владини сесии.

      Панос Каменос: Мојата проценка е дека договорот нема да оди во парламентот, бидејќи процесот во Скопје нема да заврши. Во секој случај, ние нема да се идентификуваме со Нова демократија во обид да ја собориме владата.

      Алексис Ципрас: Договорот е со владата, а не со Министерството за надворешни работи.

      По ова Коѕиас кој инсистира Преспанскиот договор да помине си даде оставка, Каменос кој не сака да слушне за истиот остана во Владата, а Ципрас прифаќајќи ја оставката на Коѕиас изјави дека негова цел е „со сите сили да помогне за успешно завршување на Договорот од Преспа“. Оваа парадоксална ситуација се разјаснува со фактот дека Ципрас без Каменос нема мнозинство во парламентот односно ако тој го напушти паѓа и Владата, а неговото останување во кабинетот значи дека Владата ќе трае до гласањето во Парламентот ако до него воопшто дојде, а тогаш може да се надева дека бојкотот од „Независни Грци“ ќе го надомести со гласовите на опозициската Потами која е волна да го прифати Договорот од Нивици. Сепак се јавува нов проблем, бидејќи Коѕиас контролира минимум пет пратеници од коалицијата во СИРИЗА кои поради неговата оставка би можеле да го променат и ставот за Преспанскиот договор односно да не гласаат за истиот кога за тоа ќе дојде време.

      Comment

      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332

        Disturbing question of Greek identity rears its head over Macedonia

        Greece Letter: Country risks getting bogged down in history when it needs a new future

        Wed, Oct 17, 2018
        Richard Pine

        URL:


        The referendum in Macedonia on September 30th was a massive Yes vote for a change of name to “Republic of North Macedonia”, but the low turnout (less than 40 per cent) is being interpreted as, in effect, a No vote by the 60 per cent who abstained.

        Nevertheless, there remain huge domestic issues in this context for neighbouring Greece, most of them the legacy of its long history.

        If the Macedonian parliament accepts the referendum result and amends its constitution to remove what many Greeks see as irredentist claims on parts of historic Macedonia that remain in Greece, then the Greeks in their turn must accept that change. But Anel, the nationalist minor partner in the current Athens coalition, will oppose this, precipitating a collapse of government and a general election.

        History, that cruel parent, raises its head with the question: do the Greeks accept “North Macedonia”, when the new country represents only 50 per cent of historic Macedonia, with 40 per cent still in northern Greece (including Thessaloniki, which has been part of Greece since only 1913), and another 10 per cent in Bulgaria.

        It is more than a polite – or politic – bow to the lessons of history, since it also calls into question the bigger issue of what makes Greeks Greek. The agreement that will be voted on in the Skopje and Athens parliaments recognises the Macedonian language and ethnicity as givens, but this is disputed by many Greeks, who declare “Macedonia is Greek”.

        The Greek insistence on the relevance of ancient history is even being described as “fake news”, as if it were a red herring to confuse the modern-day issues. But there are history lessons still waiting to be learned.

        Total disaster

        Almost 100 years ago, in 1921-22, with the encouragement of Britain and France, Greece invaded Turkey, in the belief that it had a right to do so under international treaties. This was to be the culmination of the Megali Idea or Great Concept, a process of enlargement of territory with the Trumpish slogan “Make Greece Great Again”.

        It was a total disaster, as the Turkish army not only inflicted a humiliating defeat on the Greeks but also destroyed the largely Greek city of Smyrna (today’s Izmir) and caused the evacuation of more than one million ethnic Greeks from western Turkey (Anatolia).

        But in addition to increasing Greece’s population 25 per cent, the Anatolian Catastrophe, as the events of 1922 have become known, split Greece down the middle because the national ideas of restoration and expansion had been shown to be false, bringing into question issues such as identity and purpose in a state not yet 100 years old.

        In its wake came a series of domestic and international catastrophes, including a dictatorship in 1935, the second World War, the civil war of 1945-49 and the military junta of 1967-74. In a sense, these (with the obvious exception of the world war) can be traced back to the 1922 disaster. And the Megali Idea still hasn’t gone away.

        Greece’s central position in the Balkans makes its relations with all its neighbours – Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey and Cyprus – susceptible to influence by the superpowers, especially when its porous and fragile borders are concerned. Greece and Macedonia, then as now, are the playthings of the superpowers manipulating relationships in the Balkans and the Levant.

        Modern flight

        Following the economic crisis since 2010, there is another enforced Greek migration, but this time it is outward: at least 500,000 young people have left Greece since 2008, due not only to economic deprivation and the near impossibility of finding worthwhile employment at a living wage, but also to the disillusion that successive governments seem to offer neither care nor concern for their welfare. This “brain drain” is depriving Greece of its future.

        Greece urgently needs a new future, but at the same time it threatens to deny that privilege to its northern neighbour. The creation, at last, of a “Republic of North Macedonia”, makes it even clearer that the long-standing and profoundly disturbing question of Greek identity is once more a national and international breaking point.

        The outcome of the votes in the Skopje and Athens parliaments affects not only the relationship between the two states but also whether or not Macedonia can proceed to membership of Nato and the EU, openly advocated by the US.

        Russia, for its part, is allegedly making efforts to affect the outcome in order to keep the state within the Russian orbit of influence, so really nothing much has changed since Russia supported Greek independence, at the expense of the Ottomans, back in the 1820s.

        We may, with the Bosnian conflict of the 1990s, have brought an end to military confrontations in the Balkans, but diplomacy is no respecter of borders and employs other means than the gun to achieve its aims. Whether this will lead to another “catastrophe” is anyone’s guess.

        Comment

        • Pelagonija
          Member
          • Mar 2017
          • 533

          We’ve never been good at articulating our side of the argument, no where does it mention in that article that the majority of those Anatolian Greeks eventually migrated into agean Macedonia.

          I think the Greeks got within 30ks of Ankara hence stretched their supply lines, they should have stopped advancing.

          Comment

          • vicsinad
            Senior Member
            • May 2011
            • 2337

            Day of reckoning? The vote is supposed to happen in 15 minutes...supposedly.

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              SDS/DUI claim they have the 2/3 majority just before the vote is about to begin.

              Од владејачките СДСМ и ДУИ неофицијално велат дека обезбедиле двотретинско мнозинство од 80 пратеници за отворање на Уставот, по иницијатива на владата за уставни измени согласно Договорот од Преспа. -Генерално, имаме обезбедено двотретинско мнозинство, но ништо не е сигурно додека не се потврди


              Од владејачките СДСМ и ДУИ неофицијално велат дека обезбедиле двотретинско мнозинство од 80 пратеници за отворање на Уставот, по иницијатива на владата за уставни измени согласно Договорот од Преспа.
              -Генерално, имаме обезбедено двотретинско мнозинство, но ништо не е сигурно додека не се потврди на гласање – изјави за Фокус пратеник на СДСМ, кој воедно е висок партиски функционер.

              И од албанскиот партнер во владата – ДУИ истакнуваат дека начелно обезбедиле двотретинско мнозинство, но се на самата граница на неопходниот минимум.
              -Осумдесет пратеници се сигурни, ако нешто непредвидено не се случи во меѓувреме – вели пратеник на ДУИ.
              Пратеник од ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, пак, посочува дека засега нема индицикации дека некој од неговата пратеничка група ќе даде зелено светло за отворање на Уставот.
              -Скоро сите пратеници сме собрани во Клубот на пратеници и чекаме да почне седницата – вели тој, додавајќи дека ќе гласа против, според, како што вели, волјата на граѓаните изразена на референдум.

              Comment

              • Pelagonija
                Member
                • Mar 2017
                • 533

                Still nothing?

                Иако беше закажана да започне во 21 часот, собраниската седница за гласање за потребата за уставни измени се уште не е започната. По целодневно одлужување, таа требаше за почне вечерва, но дел од медиумите објавија и дека дел од пратениците на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ го напуштиле Собранието.

                Comment

                • vicsinad
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2011
                  • 2337

                  Vote just happened.

                  80 voted for changes.

                  It passes.

                  Comment

                  • Pelagonija
                    Member
                    • Mar 2017
                    • 533

                    That’s farking crap.. Good luck to the whore of a nation.

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      Argument DPNE is using now is that a qualified majority constitutes 81 votes, not 80.

                      Comment

                      • sydney
                        Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 390

                        Don’t worry guys, there’ll be lots of robust discussions at cafes nationwide. The country is in safe hands.

                        Comment

                        • Pelagonija
                          Member
                          • Mar 2017
                          • 533

                          Today we officially become a people without a country and history, we are a bunch of turds and a few gypsies called Northern Republic of Macedonia. I can’t believe it. I simply can not relate to these people..

                          I will never call myself Macedonian ever again, it’s just too embarrassing..

                          Comment

                          • sydney
                            Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 390

                            I forgot to add the patriotism on Facebook is no doubt at fever pitch. All will be ok.

                            Comment

                            • Phoenix
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2008
                              • 4671

                              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                              Argument DPNE is using now is that a qualified majority constitutes 81 votes, not 80.
                              In a lawless land, parliamentary rules, procedures and conventions are for wiping your arse...those cocksuckers can debate the numbers all they like...it is now meaningless.

                              Comment

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