Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

[maco2envy]

Not sure if this was posted here before.

British map from 1916

A great map which is often overlooked. Interesting it categorises Macedonians outside of the Slavic group, although that's not too surprising since it's a map based on ethnicity rather than linguistics.

[tchaiku]

And Hellenized Macedonians. We know this because of 2 big reasons:

1. Villages south of Kostur that were completely Greek speaking by 1900 were documented as speaking Macedonian in the 17th century.

2. Villages around Kavala that had converted to Islam when the Ottomans arrived were documented as still speaking Macedonian by the 1900s. But those neighboring villages that kept their Christian faith were completely Greek speaking. What does this mean? At some point of time Christians in the Kavala region changed their language to Greek. Those that converted to Islam preserved their Macedonian language. Therefore the force of Hellenization had to come from the church.

How many villages were speaking Macedonian during the 1700s that shifted to Greek and how large were those villages.

[Niko777]

How many villages were speaking Macedonian during the 1700s that shifted to Greek and how large were those villages.

In the Kostur region, the documented example we have is the village of Bogatsko. It was documented as speaking Macedonian in the 1600s to 1700s. In 1913 it had a population of 2,693 and was completely Greek speaking. Information is not available on the other villages so we would have to count all the Greek speaking villages in the Kostur and Kozani regions and assume that most had suffered the same fate as this one (changed their language from Macedonian to Greek after the 1700s).

[tchaiku]

In the Kostur region, the documented example we have is the village of Bogatsko. It was documented as speaking Macedonian in the 1600s to 1700s. In 1913 it had a population of 2,693 and was completely Greek speaking. Information is not available on the other villages so we would have to count all the Greek speaking villages in the Kostur and Kozani regions and assume that most had suffered the same fate as this one (changed their language from Macedonian to Greek after the 1700s).

Can you cite quotes/information from 1700s/1600s about those villages being Macedonian? I know the source you showed but I wasn't able to find anything.

And maybe those villages were repopulated by Greek speakers during some times in history. I am not implying that you are lying it is just that I am open to all possibilities.

[Niko777]

Can you cite quotes/information from 1700s/1600s about those villages being Macedonian? I know the source you showed but I wasn't able to find anything.

And maybe those villages were repopulated by Greek speakers during some times in history. I am not implying that you are lying it is just that I am open to all possibilities.

I don't know how those villages south of Kostur turned Greek, we don't have any sources on that. Your sources show it could have been repopulated by Vlachs.

We do have linguistic evidence that shows Macedonian was spoken there before that - You know my source is "Un lexique macédonien du XVIe siècle" by G. Giannelli and A. Vaillant.

I cannot find all the pages of this book online.

I did find a scholarly review of the book:

https://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_0766-5598_1959_num_17_1_1213_t1_0300_0000_1

It mentions that the author was a Greek, who with the help of a translator, collected words of the "average language" spoken "south-east" of Kostur, and that the people appeared to this Greek not as "peasants" but as "cultured Slavs".

...ces multiples notations ne sont pas l'oevre d'un specialiste, mais d'un curieux, un grec, qui, a l'aide d'un informateur, s'est complu a recueillir <<la langue moyenne>> d'une region (sud-est de Castoria) comme la parlaient, non les paysans, mais les slaves cultives....

...these multiple notations are not the work of a specialist, but of a curious, a Greek, who, with the help of an informant, has taken pleasure in collecting the "average language" of a region (south-east of Castoria) as spoken, not as peasants, but the cultured Slavs...

Bogatsko is south east of Kostur, and that village is mentioned in the book.

[tchaiku]

Thank you Niko.

[tchaiku]

You are right Niko. Slavic names in Bogatsko:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragoumis

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Dragoumis

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogatsiko

[Niko777]

The Bulgarian wikipedia article cites a Turkish tax defter from the 15th century that has a list of personal names of individuals in Bogatsko:

https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE

Йорг, Димо, Папа Янос, Йорг, Никола, Тодор, Никола, Томо, Йорг, Арматуш, Томо, Манол, Срвит, Зимпор, Михал, Стефан, Тома, Никола, Димо, Гьорче, Коста, Коста, Тома, Мано, Койо, Гон, Флорс, Бойо, Дочо, Йорг, Койо и Манол, и две вдовици Йелена и Кала.

Jorg, Dimo, Papa Janos, Jorg, Nikola, Todor, Nikola, Tomo, Jorg, Armatush, Tomo, Manol, S'rvit, Zimpor, Mihail, Stefan, Toma, Nikola, Dimo, Gjorche, Kosta, Kosta, Toma, Mano, Kojo, Gon, Flors, Bojo, Docho, Jorg, Kojo, Manol, and two widows, Jelena and Kala

Tell me tchaiku, do those names sound Greek to you?

[Carlin]

Many GREEK-SPEAKING (bilingual) Vlachs from Epirus settled in Bogatsko.

Traditions from Bogatsko indicate that, in the late 18th century, Castorians had prevented the installation of some Epirus refugees in their city. Thus, about 70 families from different places, mainly from Moschopole, Fourka, Souli and Parga, eventually settled in Bogatsko. In 1889 according to the Serbian Spiridon Gopcevic's statistics, Bogatsko is reported to be inhabited by 3,000 Greek-speaking and Vlach-speaking Christians.

URL:

http://www.vlachs.gr/el/various-articles/h-vlahiki-parousia-stin-perioxi-tis-kastorias

[Niko777]

I really wish we had information on the other villages, (and maybe if we dig hard enough we'll find it), but I think the information we have on Bogatsko is a good "sample" or representative for the rest of the Greek speaking villages.

[Niko777]

British map, 1931

[Carlin]

I really wish we had information on the other villages, (and maybe if we dig hard enough we'll find it), but I think the information we have on Bogatsko is a good "sample" or representative for the rest of the Greek speaking villages.

The population of the Kostur area, according to G. Nakratzas (pages 93 and 109)





The Drama and Nevrokop area (Greek and Bulgarian sectors of eastern Macedonia) (page 208)

[tchaiku]

British map, 1931

Those maps depict orthodox Albanians and Vlachs as Greeks.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=173864#post173864

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Those maps depict orthodox Albanians and Vlachs as Greeks.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...864#post173864

Probably based on membership to the Patriarchate.

[tchaiku]

Probably based on membership to the Patriarchate.

The map is from 1930's. I missed that. But what I said applies to the maps of 19th century.